Valium/Diazepam Support Group

[[et...]]

We absolutely heal as we taper.  As Builder said, that is the point of tapering.  We can taper in such a way that we are nearly completely done when we reach zero.  Our bodies respond to drug shortages by healing - they compensate by adjusting the GABA system upwards to function at the new drug dose.  If we keep maintaining a slight shortage the body will keep following, much like dangling a carrot in front of a horse.  That's what tapering does - it keeps maintaining a slight shortage.  The reason people need more time after zero is that they tapered too fast, which is very common as the tapering process takes so incredibly long.  But with enough patience it is certainly possible to taper, feel good, reach zero in good shape, and be done at that time.  I honestly don't think reaching zero is the beginning of any new phase or anything like that.  After zero the body is just finishing the final GABA adjustments and repairing any damage that might have occurred from cuts that were too big during the taper.

I stand corrected with this "new" science

etown

[[...]]

Right on Builder and SG57. Of course we heal during a taper and continue healing for a time after getting off the benzos. In my case, I went super slow the last few months of my taper in order to feel pretty well. I believed I continued to heal during this time and once I hit 0 the time to complete healing would be pretty short. I think most folks move along at the end of their tapers and hurry to get to 0. It will then take a little longer to completely heal. Either way, we're going to pretty much all heal however we choose to do it. I have a busy lifestyle and just chose to taper slowly to avoid impacting it. For me, it was very important to minimize symptoms. I also believe that symptoms may correlate with glutamate excitotoxicity which is neurotoxic and could ultimately delay complete healing. At the end of my taper I felt fine and would just get symptoms with over-indulging in alcohol, chocolate, caffeine, lack of sleep, too much exercise or too much stress. After a while I couldn't bring on symptoms no matter what I did.

Keep on trucking gang. Eventually it will all work out and you will be fine. Just don't cold turkey.

 

Bart

[[be...]]

Thanks All, felt it was true, but can see that some do not think we are healing, and hope they read this thread, as can be confussing. For BB .

[[et...]]

The "one size fits all mentality" reminds me of why I stayed away from this thread for so long. Time to go back in to hibernation again.

etown

[[dr...]]

I call BS on a slow taper allowing for me to step off easily.  I spent 26 months tapering and it was never easy and it was crappy after jumping(in a different way.  There is no rhyme or reason to this.  yes, a cold turkey would have been harder but this whole thing sucked moose balls and it's been going on for way too long.  I guess I could have slowed my taper down to 6 years or something

[[Sm...]]

You're all right 

 

Seriously you are

How you 'heal' during taper and off depends on your infinitely complex individual physiology, and it depends on other extraneous things like how long you were on the drug.

 

There is zero point for some prolonging their taper beyond something sensible. They will hurt all the way down and can't reduce symptoms tapering beyond a certain point. Others can reduce symptoms a great deal whilst tapering and step off virtually healed. Most people will be in the middle.

I know I mostly symptoms tapered but the truth is my trajectory of healing is very much better off. Would that have been true a year ago when I was on a higher dose? No probably not. A great deal depends on a great many things so etown is absolutely right to say no one size fits all.

[[mr...]]

My mom is tapering for the 2nd time and she was kindled.

The first time, I tapered her off in 4 months which resulted in many weekly trips to the ER, but she recovered by the 6th month off ativan.

This time, yeah, the taper took longer but her cns was extremely hypersensitized from a prior taper and taking ativan randomly which maybe similar to little cold turkey's, but the wd's were much easier to control this time than the last time.

 

Tapering at a rate that matches the cns makes all the sense to me and I saw it work with my mom.

My mom was way too frail to taper fast. We tried a ct and she almost died.

All it took was .5mg Ativan and she was breathing normally, but without it, she would have had to be on a ventilator.

These drugs are dangerous and the safest way off is as slow as your cns can handle.

 

[[dr...]]

Smiff the Pracemaker....go to hell.      :smitten:

[[ar...]]

I was a short time user but as you can see I was all over the place.  I was rapid tapered and I suffered so bad.  Once I slowed down things got more manageable.  The keyword is manageable.  I am shocked that short time use sent me to hell.  Sometimes I regret this long taper but I don't know if I would have been worse off with the rapid taper.  I guess I am just trying to do the right thing.  I just don't know anymore.  I see so many different opinions I get so confused.

[[mr...]]

I was a short time user but as you can see I was all over the place.  I was rapid tapered and I suffered so bad.  Once I slowed down things got more manageable.  The keyword is manageable.  I am shocked that short time use sent me to hell.  Sometimes I regret this long taper but I don't know if I would have been worse off with the rapid taper.  I guess I am just trying to do the right thing.  I just don't know anymore.  I see so many different opinions I get so confused.

 

Since everyone is different, follow your own body.

Only you know how your body is reacting and no one else can do that for you.

We don't ever want to have to do this again.

I have heard many complain that if they only would have went faster, they probably would have been recovered sooner.

I do not believe this because when someone is tapering too slowly, they start feeling better during their taper and choose to taper faster.

IMHO, I believe that if you are still really suffering at the lower dose cuts, you might be tapering too fast.

Bart is the perfect example where he walked off valium nearly healed.

[Guest [mo...]]

I would like to hear some more opinions please, and is it down in writing somewhere,can't remember where I read it here on this site.? I do believe the fact that after we are completely off, it is no guarantee that  will be clear coasting, have read all the stories of the problems that can and do arise. Thanks. 

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=66397.0

This is a great piece Begood.  Healing is happening which is why we are having symptoms before and after jumping. "Just keep swimming" as Nemo's little friend says.....

[[st...]]

I was a short time user but as you can see I was all over the place.  I was rapid tapered and I suffered so bad.  Once I slowed down things got more manageable.  The keyword is manageable.  I am shocked that short time use sent me to hell.  Sometimes I regret this long taper but I don't know if I would have been worse off with the rapid taper.  I guess I am just trying to do the right thing.  I just don't know anymore.  I see so many different opinions I get so confused.

 

Hey Arcade!

 

Love Alfred E.

 

Steve

 

 

PS - And you're doin' great!

 

 

[[Di...]]

Hi, I have been reading a lot of posts this morning and read one that two Buddies  telling someone that our Brains do not start healing until we are completely off of the benzo, is this true, as I have thought that the brain is slowly healing when benzo's are being tapered also and somewhere read on the highlighted areas, that the brain is healing when we are tapering, now I am sorta confused can someone give me some insight into this"""""?   

 

I would like to hear some more opinions please, and is it down in writing somewhere,can't remember where I read it here on this site.? I do believe the fact that after we are completely off, it is no guarantee that  will be clear coasting, have read all the stories of the problems that can and do arise. Thanks. 

 

This whole thing of "our Brains do not start healing until we are completely off of the benzo" has come about through people misquoting what Dr Ashton said. One person has taken out of context what she said, and then through a series of constant Chinese whispers it has become this thing that we don’t even start healing until we’ve stopped the benzo. What she actually said was .......

 

Updosing during withdrawal? Some people hit a "sticky patch" during the course of benzodiazepine withdrawal. In many cases, staying on the same dose for a longer period (not more than a few weeks) before resuming the withdrawal schedule allows them to overcome this obstacle. However, increasing the dose until a longed-for plateau of 'stability' arrives is not a good strategy. The truth is that one never 'stabilises' on a given dose of benzodiazepine. The dose may be stable but withdrawal symptoms are not. It is better to grit one's teeth and continue the withdrawal. True recovery cannot really start until the drug is out of the system.

  http://www.benzo.org.uk/ashsupp11.htm

 

So all she said was “true recovery” cannot really start, not that we don’t start healing at all as we taper. So it's a shame that you've been reading that some buddies have been telling people that healing hasn't even started yet for them, because I can imagine that this would be pretty depressing news to hear when you're already battling through a taper. We should be trying to give people more positive news than that. 

 

It might also be how the actual taper of a benzo affects an individual person. For me personally I never really felt any different throughout my entire taper. There was never a point where I thought "ah ha - I feel like I'm starting to heal".  If I tapered too quickly, even when I was on the really tiny doses, all the same side effects of insomnia, anxiety and depression would be there. However, once I finished my taper at zero, I did feel I was starting to heal within about a month or so, and I felt fully recovered within about 4-6 months. So obviously I was healing throughout my taper, but I just didn’t really feel it until the benzo was completely out of my system.

 

Now whether this is a second phase of healing or whether it's just a continuation of the healing, I don't know and it doesn't really matter either way. The bottom line is that we do heal and it will happen either fairly quickly or fairly slowly, and that will only be determined by how sensibly we tapered in the first place.

 

[[be...]]

Diaz-Pam, Thank you so much, it was really hard reading the posts that was telling a Buddie that, but I now feel confident in knowing that what I have read here and other places to be true. I hope I come across those posts again and I will step in. 

[[be...]]

moutainyogi, Thanks for the link, I will read it today, it is nice to have you here in Benzo land, Hope you are doing better, sending you ton's of Healing Support to you 

[[ar...]]

I was a short time user but as you can see I was all over the place.  I was rapid tapered and I suffered so bad.  Once I slowed down things got more manageable.  The keyword is manageable.  I am shocked that short time use sent me to hell.  Sometimes I regret this long taper but I don't know if I would have been worse off with the rapid taper.  I guess I am just trying to do the right thing.  I just don't know anymore.  I see so many different opinions I get so confused.

 

Hey Arcade!

 

Love Alfred E.

 

Steve

 

 

PS - And you're doin' great!

 

Ha-ha yes.  I loved the MAD magazines as a kid.

 

When I see Bart step in and say he had minimal s/x the rest of the way down and saying that getting symptoms can extend the healing process I get disappointed in my taper because sometimes I try to be perfect with my taper.  I listen to my body but symptoms do happen and they come so quickly.  When I read that stuff I feel bad.

 

It's not Barts fault for expressing his take on it.  It's my fault for trying to have the perfect taper and expecting minimal symptoms and when I do get symptoms I get disappointed.

 

That being said I need to stop trying to be perfect and just be happy with a sensible taper.

[Guest [mo...]]

Diaz-Pam, Thank you so much, it was really hard reading the posts that was telling a Buddie that, but I now feel confident in knowing that what I have read here and other places to be true. I hope I come across those posts again and I will step in. 

 

Begood, please remember that advice is wonderful and helpful in many cases but indeed, anecdotal. The ultimate and most accurate judge lives within your own intuition. 

[Guest [mo...]]

I was a short time user but as you can see I was all over the place.  I was rapid tapered and I suffered so bad.  Once I slowed down things got more manageable.  The keyword is manageable.  I am shocked that short time use sent me to hell.  Sometimes I regret this long taper but I don't know if I would have been worse off with the rapid taper.  I guess I am just trying to do the right thing.  I just don't know anymore.  I see so many different opinions I get so confused.

 

I resonate with your view Arcade, I am back and forth between jumping soon and dragging this out.  I attempt to have equanimity in my thinking DAILY because I feel that this drug has a way and a will within my own mental construct.  It's the battle between the "crazy, unmanageable" me(bad chemistry) and the one who desires 'Getting Action, Being Sane ' -my TRUE SELF.

[Guest [mo...]]

moutainyogi, Thanks for the link, I will read it today, it is nice to have you here in Benzo land, Hope you are doing better, sending you ton's of Healing Support to you 

 

I dropped 2 nights ago and had a really bad night(2 hours sleep), but I am getting on my mountain bike today and going forward.  I will not let this get me down.

 

p.s. new weird symptom

bottom lip numb 

[Guest [mo...]]

 

 

That being said I need to stop trying to be perfect and just be happy with a sensible taper.

 

 

[[be...]]

Thanks moutainyogi, ride that bike girl'''''' 

[[mr...]]

Arcade,

If it is possible to do the perfect taper, I'm sure you will find it.

Just because you didn't find the sweet spot at the higher doses doesn't mean you won't find it at the lower doses.

I did too fast a taper with my mom during this taper and accidentally got too far ahead of her healing and had to updose.

Fortunately, it worked and I did find her sweet spot at the lower doses.

Her dosing is a little ahead of her sweet spot.

 

[[st...]]

I was a short time user but as you can see I was all over the place.  I was rapid tapered and I suffered so bad.  Once I slowed down things got more manageable.  The keyword is manageable.  I am shocked that short time use sent me to hell.  Sometimes I regret this long taper but I don't know if I would have been worse off with the rapid taper.  I guess I am just trying to do the right thing.  I just don't know anymore.  I see so many different opinions I get so confused.

 

Hey Arcade!

 

Love Alfred E.

 

Steve

 

 

PS - And you're doin' great!

 

Ha-ha yes.  I loved the MAD magazines as a kid.

 

When I see Bart step in and say he had minimal s/x the rest of the way down and saying that getting symptoms can extend the healing process I get disappointed in my taper because sometimes I try to be perfect with my taper.  I listen to my body but symptoms do happen and they come so quickly.  When I read that stuff I feel bad.

 

It's not Barts fault for expressing his take on it.  It's my fault for trying to have the perfect taper and expecting minimal symptoms and when I do get symptoms I get disappointed.

 

That being said I need to stop trying to be perfect and just be happy with a sensible taper.

 

I have a stack of magazines and books in my "library" (i.e. bathroom) and one of them is a Mad compilation, which I look at from time to time and laugh. (Another is an R. Crumb compilation; ever read his comics?) Also very funny!

 

You know, taking benzos is easy, as they insidiously work their way into our lives. If we could simply stop and deal with side effects we obviously would, like with opiates for example. But we can't without significant risk to ourselves.

 

So we taper. For whatever reason, some have fewer sx than others. But no one, or very few, get away unscathed. We just deal as we carefully step down that ladder, making sure not to go too fast so we don't fall.

 

You are doing very well, and at your current rate, seems like in not too long, you will be free. As I have thought and said many times, in the end WE win.

 

YOU will win!

 

Steve

 

PS - are you referring to this: "I think most folks move along at the end of their tapers and hurry to get to 0. It will then take a little longer to completely heal." ?  If one speeds up one's taper seeing the finish line, or simply out of impatience, it can exacerbate sx and then, potentially, maybe we hold or, in some cases updose which then makes us take longer. Diaz-Pam's slogan "the hurrier we go the behinder we get" applies. Now, we can't always know. For example, when I got to the really low dose of .36, I sped up my taper a bit (back to 4/100 mg per day -- not fast!) after a multi-day hold, because it didn't seem, at that point, I was getting any benefit at all, and it just "felt" right. I do not recommend or dis-recommend that, however. Just do what feels right to you, all things considered (you seem to be tapering intelligently). You will be fine. Not necessarily symptom free immediately, but well on your way to healing.

 

 

 

 

[[he...]]

as i kept cutting my pills smaller and smaller, i began to see light at the end of the tunnel...and of course it also scared me.

 

the final week i was alternating about 1/4 of a pill (or smaller) with no valium. 

 

as it turns out this has coincided with two terribly stressful, life-changing situations.  however, so far i am, amazingly, ok.

 

when i have felt awful i keep telling myself "it's just a feeling, it can't hurt you."

 

i still have other natural sleep aids to help me, including valerian which i know works on the same principles.  but overall i feel better than i have in years.

 

i post this here to let others know it is possible.  it took me over a year, and would have taken less if not for other stressful situations that caused me to hold for longer at certain levels, but it is over.  my GP gave me a "just in case" prescription for 2.5mg pills, but it got ruined in my pocket and i destroyed it.  i never want to be on anything like that again.

[[st...]]

as i kept cutting my pills smaller and smaller, i began to see light at the end of the tunnel...and of course it also scared me.

 

the final week i was alternating about 1/4 of a pill (or smaller) with no valium. 

 

as it turns out this has coincided with two terribly stressful, life-changing situations.  however, so far i am, amazingly, ok.

 

when i have felt awful i keep telling myself "it's just a feeling, it can't hurt you."

 

i still have other natural sleep aids to help me, including valerian which i know works on the same principles.  but overall i feel better than i have in years.

 

i post this here to let others know it is possible.  it took me over a year, and would have taken less if not for other stressful situations that caused me to hold for longer at certain levels, but it is over.  my GP gave me a "just in case" prescription for 2.5mg pills, but it got ruined in my pocket and i destroyed it.  i never want to be on anything like that again.

 

Fantastic!!!

 

<<

i never want to be on anything like that again

>>

True that!

 

Steve