Valium/Diazepam Support Group

[[et...]]

Sorry friends I just can't help myself. I used the dry cut with scales all the way down ( even for a daily taper). I found it easy and as accurate as any other method ( I also did a liquid taper). This method has been ridiculed many times for various reasons. I have been reading a ton of posts on the confusion of the liquid taper, hundreds of them actually, so although I have never said anything negative about any tapering method, the confusion speaks for itself lol.

Go buy a scale lol

etown

[[Kg...]]

Etown: I wondered if you had a link to the excel spread sheet since I plan on tapering Valium with the scale  An excel spread sheet will help me do the formula so I will know what to cut. I actually would like to cut at the same rate I am cutting Klonopin now which is .001 for 20 days in a 28 day cycle.  My pill weight of klonopin .5 mg is .172 grams. This seems to be working for me even at my relatively low dose.  I have 2 mg of Valium to get off of once I am done with the Klonopin - hopefully around mid December though if I need more time I still need to get off of the Valium after I finish the K taper.

 

Query for you and SG:  Do you think I should hold for 3 weeks before starting the Valium taper after I finish the K? Or just keep going. I know it is looking ahead but I will copy and paste your answers so I won't be asking again.  Thank you.

[[Di...]]

Builder - you have to understand that when I wrote that method there is no way I could cover every single possibility. To date I've never seen anyone else go to the trouble of writing out such a detailed procedure, and I am constantly having people thanking me for going to the effort because they find it so easy to understand.

 

So it is really bugging me that you are now taking things out of context and confusing people, especially when many people have told me that they don't understand what you are telling them. Before I wrote it out there were so many people who couldn't get their head around the fact that you had to progressively reduce, and make new batches as required, so I tried to write it in such a way that they could understand that you only reduce an amount from an overall batch and then drink the rest, and that you needed to keeping making new batches as required. 

 

I have never at any stage told anyone that they need to make a new batch everyday. You are being far too literal and pedantic about what I've written. I have always told them to keep what's left over and use for the next dose. It only makes sense that there will be times where one batch can be used constantly until it is finished. I have never had anyone not understand that, and I just don't understand why you are confusing things.

 

1)  You do NOT have to make a new batch each day. No you don't and I have covered that by saying you can keep what's left over to use for your next dose.

2)  You do NOT have to start with a fixed volume (eg. 100ml) No you don't, but seeing as I was writing out the method that I used, that was how I wrote it. I have always been very clear that you can use whatever amount of liquid you want, but that 100ml is my preference.

3)  You do NOT have to remove your "cut". This is coming back to the "pull to dose" and "pull to discard" nonsense, which has confused so many people. As I've said before, that's just the way it's written. I could not cover every single possibility. At some point you have to give people credit for having brains and being able to work things out for themselves. You can remove what you need for your dose, or you can remove what you need to keep for you next dose. It makes no difference, and at various points of the taper you will do both, depending on the amount.

 

I really hope we can get past this builder, because I think you are just making things more complicated than they need to be, by being far too pedantic about the way I've written things. I've had hundreds of people use this method and tell me that the procedure is very easy to understand and follow, and until recently there were no issues with it at all. However for some reason there now seems to be a lot of confusion over everything, and I think a lot of it is to do with what you are saying TBVH.

 

 

[[Di...]]

Sorry friends I just can't help myself. I used the dry cut with scales all the way down ( even for a daily taper). I found it easy and as accurate as any other method ( I also did a liquid taper). This method has been ridiculed many times for various reasons. I have been reading a ton of posts on the confusion of the liquid taper, hundreds of them actually, so although I have never said anything negative about any tapering method, the confusion speaks for itself lol.

Go buy a scale lol

etown

 

People will always be confused about any method at first because it's a totally new concept to them. I've seen many people confused by the weighing method too, so there's nothing clear cut about that either. I have witnessed many pitfalls with the weighing method, but if it worked for you that's great. However, once the liquid process is explained to people properly they usually work it out fairly quickly. I've never had anyone not work it out after just asking a few questions. However, everyone has to find the right method for them. No one method is better than the other.

 

However, most of this recent confusion seem to only be happening because people seem to be trying to make the issue confusing - to be very honest. Frankly I'm just getting a bit fed up with BB completely right now. I try to help as many people as possible, but lately all I seem to be getting is criticism. Maybe I just need to move on totally. The only problem is that so many people keep telling me (by PM and on the forum) that the explanations they get from some people confuse them too much, and that mine are much easier to understand. *shugs*

[[bu...]]

 

 

I have never at any stage told anyone that they need to make a new batch everyday. 

 

 

 

 

But isn't that what this says???

 

 

Cutting 5% every 14 days = 3.5mg every 14 days – or 1mg every 4 days - or 25ml per day of a 100ml solution

 

Day 1 – Drink the 100ml solution

Day 2 – Make a new solution...

Day 3 – Make a new solution...

Day 4 – Make a new solution... 

 

Start the process again, but reduce the amount of tablets you are taking by 1mg, because you have now reduced your dose by 1mg.

 

Cutting 5% every 28 days = 3.5mg every 28 days – or 1mg every 8 days - or 12.5ml per day of a 100ml solution

 

Day 1 – Drink the 100ml solution (you can either discard the rest or use it to make up part of your next day’s dose)

Day 2 – Make a new solution...

Day 3 – Make a new solution... 

Day 4 – Make a new solution... 

Day 5 – Make a new solution... 

Day 6 – Make a new solution... 

Day 7 – Make a new solution... 

Day 8 – Make a new solution... 

 

[[Di...]]

What do you think "you can either discard the rest or use it to make up part of your next day’s dose" and "discard or use remainder the next day" means? It means just that - use up what's left over until it's gone.

 

Yes maybe I say to make a new batch each day, but that's because before I wrote out the method a lot of people did not understand that they needed to make new batches as required. The actually thought they just made one batch and used it for goodness knows how long.

 

You aren't giving people any credit for being able to understand that if they already have enough to make up the dose they require they obviously do not need to make up a new batch.

 

Seiously builder, I'm getting really fed up. I've had hundreds of people use this method and NONE OF THEM have ever had any issues understanding the process. I just don't understand why you are trying to make it so hard. Let's just move on because this is tiring.

 

 

[[Di...]]

As for benzogirl being "confused and intimidated", interestingly she had this to say. This is very similar to most of the feedback I get, so maybe it's not me who is confusing anyone...... 

 

Hey DP. You are an for replying to me. But I trust you more than anybody else here. You make so much sense to me, when I read your posts.

Bets

[[et...]]

Etown: I wondered if you had a link to the excel spread sheet since I plan on tapering Valium with the scale  An excel spread sheet will help me do the formula so I will know what to cut. I actually would like to cut at the same rate I am cutting Klonopin now which is .001 for 20 days in a 28 day cycle.  My pill weight of klonopin .5 mg is .172 grams. This seems to be working for me even at my relatively low dose.  I have 2 mg of Valium to get off of once I am done with the Klonopin - hopefully around mid December though if I need more time I still need to get off of the Valium after I finish the K taper.

 

Query for you and SG:  Do you think I should hold for 3 weeks before starting the Valium taper after I finish the K? Or just keep going. I know it is looking ahead but I will copy and paste your answers so I won't be asking again.  Thank you.

Sorry no spreadsheet but you would just take .001 off .172 every day .

etown

[[et...]]

Sorry friends I just can't help myself. I used the dry cut with scales all the way down ( even for a daily taper). I found it easy and as accurate as any other method ( I also did a liquid taper). This method has been ridiculed many times for various reasons. I have been reading a ton of posts on the confusion of the liquid taper, hundreds of them actually, so although I have never said anything negative about any tapering method, the confusion speaks for itself lol.

Go buy a scale lol

etown

 

People will always be confused about any method at first because it's a totally new concept to them. I've seen many people confused by the weighing method too, so there's nothing clear cut about that either. I have witnessed many pitfalls with the weighing method, but if it worked for you that's great. However, once the liquid process is explained to people properly they usually work it out fairly quickly. I've never had anyone not work it out after just asking a few questions. However, everyone has to find the right method for them. No one method is better than the other.

 

However, most of this recent confusion seem to only be happening because people seem to be trying to make the issue confusing - to be very honest. Frankly I'm just getting a bit fed up with BB completely right now. I try to help as many people as possible, but lately all I seem to be getting is criticism. Maybe I just need to move on totally. The only problem is that so many people keep telling me (by PM and on the forum) that the explanations they get from some people confuse them too much, and that mine are much easier to understand. *shugs*

 

That's why I stepped back DP and you should too. Your method is in your sig. and that's what people need. Go live your life.

etown

[[Di...]]

I stepped back for quite a few months, and hardly posted at all, but I came back in because of the number of people who contacted me saying they couldn't understand some of the explanations they were getting. Constant complaints were that some posters were too "blunt" and "impatient". Apparently I'm neither of those things..lol...

[[et...]]

I stepped back for quite a few months, and hardly posted at all, but I came back in because of the number of people who contacted me saying they couldn't understand some of the explanations they were getting. Constant complaints were that some posters were too "blunt" and "impatient". Apparently I'm neither of those things..lol...

I get it totally, but, remember people will always "need" you.

etown

[[bu...]]

As for benzogirl being "confused and intimidated", interestingly she had this to say. This is very similar to most of the feedback I get, so maybe it's not me who is confusing anyone...... 

 

Hey DP. You are an for replying to me. But I trust you more than anybody else here. You make so much sense to me, when I read your posts.

Bets

  Hey Pam, Why the hostility?  I have always respected your ideas and contributions.  I have noted your contributions in numerous posts.  I have linked many BBs to your page and procedures.

 

I have never said your procedure is wrong; I have only pointed out there are some other variations on the liquid/daily tapering.

And I have always said everyone needs to choose a taper protocol they feel comfortable with.  We have folks doing cut-and-hold, we have folks doing dry cut with tablets, we have folks sanding and weighing, we have folks doing crossovers.  And we have folks doing  a variety of different liquid protocols.

 

I'm not criticizing anything about your clear and detailed procedure...only pointing out that there are other variations that are just  as easy to follow.  I've never said my variation is better, just a little different.

 

 

:(

 

 

 

[[Se...]]

I’m completing day 5 at 1.5 mg of valium. Withdrawal symptoms have increased steadily the last 3 days and include the following in varying degrees: flushing in face and upper torso, sweats, tingling/tension/chills in skin and muscles, feeling of weakness, tinnitus, insomnia, no appetite, feeling of fullness, upset stomach to acid reflux, headache, ache where neck joins back, inability to focus mentally, feeling of hopelessness, overreaction to disturbances. Not so bad compared to most of yours. Still much harder than what I went through getting off oxycodone in 2012. I did sleep 7.3 hours last night with one Benadryl capsule (Unisom leaves me too groggy the next day).

 

Mrtmeo, I presently do not plan to post a plog, as I prefer to use my signature line to summarize my cut and hold history.  The plan has been to cut my dose by 0.5 mg every fifth day, which lands me at zero in 10 days. I’ve debated with myself about “microtapering” 0.1 mg/day starting today, but that lands me at zero in 14 days – not 10 – and I’ve been told that for me, every day is critical. I’ve also debated with myself about holding at 1.5 mg a couple more days. After reading Kgirl10’s reply #15380 on October 15, 2015, I think I’ll stick with the plan – cut to 1.0 mg tonight and let the chips fall where they may – unless this thread’s wisdom suggests otherwise.

 

[[mr...]]

I’m completing day 5 at 1.5 mg of valium. Withdrawal symptoms have increased steadily the last 3 days and include the following in varying degrees: flushing in face and upper torso, sweats, tingling/tension/chills in skin and muscles, feeling of weakness, tinnitus, insomnia, no appetite, feeling of fullness, upset stomach to acid reflux, headache, ache where neck joins back, inability to focus mentally, feeling of hopelessness, overreaction to disturbances. Not so bad compared to most of yours. Still much harder than what I went through getting off oxycodone in 2012. I did sleep 7.3 hours last night with one Benadryl capsule (Unisom leaves me too groggy the next day).

 

Mrtmeo, I presently do not plan to post a plog, as I prefer to use my signature line to summarize my cut and hold history.  The plan has been to cut my dose by 0.5 mg every fifth day, which lands me at zero in 10 days. I’ve debated with myself about “microtapering” 0.1 mg/day starting today, but that lands me at zero in 14 days – not 10 – and I’ve been told that for me, every day is critical. I’ve also debated with myself about holding at 1.5 mg a couple more days. After reading Kgirl10’s reply #15380 on October 15, 2015, I think I’ll stick with the plan – cut to 1.0 mg tonight and let the chips fall where they may – unless this thread’s wisdom suggests otherwise.

 

Hi SFF,

Yeah, that sure sounds like a ton of ouch all at once.

I don't have any advice regarding wether to hold for 10 or 14 days, but I don't think the extra days will be any worse or better.

Yeah, the doxylamine sometimes causes my mom to sleep all afternoon, but I only give her 1/2 a pill.

It lasts for 12 hrs.

Hopefully, in a couple months this all can just be a bad memory and you can go back to living life.

[[or...]]

I would just like to comment briefly about my experience with liquid tapering.

 

Diaz-Pam's explanation helped me immensely . . . so much so that I have linked to it in my sig. After an excruciating cut and hold journey from 15 mgs to 5 mgs, I realized I need to begin a daily taper if I was going to survive getting off this drug. I read DP's how-to-do-it instructions, PMd her with a few questions, then began daily reductions using vodka, valium and water.

 

My success with daily reductions, and my finally ridding myself of valium, is entirely due to DP and her well-thought-out reduction method. It was (and is) straightforward, easy to understand, and best of all, can be tailored to any individual's requirements.

 

My thanks again to you, DP. I am finally benzo free and I followed the road you paved for me.

 

 

Okatz

 

 

[[Di...]]

Builder - I have no idea what you mean by hostility. The issue I have is that you seem to be making comments about what I’ve written which are just not true. Like saying that I’m claiming you have to make a new batch every day. I have never said that. However some people, mainly those just starting out, actual prefer to do it until they get the hang of what they’re doing. That's why I've written it the way I have.

 

You also keep saying that I use a "pull to dose" (or is it "pull to discard" – I’m confused) method which is also not true. I have written it a certain way for clarity so people can see that the procedure works as a gradual step down process. Whether they choose to pull to “discard” or “dose” is totally up to them, and they will probably do both as their dose changes. Nobody has ever had an issue understanding either of these things, but specifically pointing them out, the way you have, only adds confusion to people's minds. There was that stupid discussion a few weeks ago about the "pull to dose/discard" nonsense, and all it achieved was that is just got people confused for no reason.

 

I have always respected your input on this forum, but I feel that lately you’ve been specifically commenting on and countermanding what I’ve been saying (even if you don’t realise you are) – and I have no idea why that is happening. I have never made any specific claims about whether your method is "pull to dose" or "pull to discard" or how often you say to make up a batch, because in all honestly I don't care. I will give my input on something and if someone finds it helpful - great - but if they don't that's also fine. I'm not going to make comments on the information other people give unless I think it's wrong.

 

I am moving on now, because I know these kinds of discussions always just end up confusing people even more, and that is something I always try to avoid doing.

[[ph...]]

I am certainly thankful for the taper directions I was given.  We all comprehend in different ways ... Builder's method of explaining titration was easiest for me to understand.  That said, I am sure every person learns differently so "all advice is appreciated".  Please know that everyone who is attempting to help us reach our goal is held in high esteem!

[[Di...]]

Thanks Okatz. I really appreciate your comments. 

[[st...]]

Thanks Okatz. I really appreciate your comments. 

 

Just logged on to update my sig and saw all this. Pam, you were the first person I met on BB. You were immensely helpful to me. AND emotionally supportive as well. As you pointed out, when people first come here -- often in a state of tolerance, like I was -- they are confused; as was I. In a few days now, I will be done. And I'm feeling grateful to a fair number of people. Including builder and etown as a matter of fact. And Okatz as well! But, although I chose my own taper method, it was you who helped me get there; I would have been lost except for you. I even took (I think I mentioned this to you) some things you had written to my p-doc who then agreed to my taper!

 

I'll say thanks to all of you in a few days now!

 

 

Steve

 

PS - People are in so much distress that there really should not be any discord here.

 

 

[[bu...]]

Builder - I have no idea what you mean by hostility. The issue I have is that you seem to be making comments about what I’ve written which are just not true. Like saying that I’m claiming you have to make a new batch every day. I have never said that. However some people, mainly those just starting out, actual prefer to do it until they get the hang of what they’re doing. That's why I've written it the way I have.

 

I won't bother copy/pasting again your earlier post that says "Make a new solution..." for 8 consecutive days!

 

You also keep saying that I use a "pull to dose" (or is it "pull to discard" – I’m confused) method which is also not true. I have written it a certain way for clarity so people can see that the procedure works as a gradual step down process. Whether they choose to pull to “discard” or “dose” is totally up to them, and they will probably do both as their dose changes. Nobody has ever had an issue understanding either of these things, but specifically pointing them out, the way you have, only adds confusion to people's minds. There was that stupid discussion a few weeks ago about the "pull to dose/discard" nonsense, and all it achieved was that is just got people confused for no reason.

  Knowing that you object to that terminology (pull to dose-pull to discard) please note that I carefully did NOT use either of those terms in this discussion. In fact, once you expressed your displeasure to those terms some time ago, I have nave never used them again.  BTW, those terms are NOT my terminology, but terms that others have used to describe the alternatives concepts of dividing the liquid into a daily dose.  In short, your protocol says draw out  the cut and drink the rest, my suggestion is just draw out the dose, and drink that.

 

I have always respected your input on this forum, but I feel that lately you’ve been specifically commenting on and countermanding what I’ve been saying (even if you don’t realise you are) – and I have no idea why that is happening. I have never made any specific claims about whether your method is "pull to dose" or "pull to discard" or how often you say to make up a batch, because in all honestly I don't care. I will give my input on something and if someone finds it helpful - great - but if they don't that's also fine. I'm not going to make comments on the information other people give unless I think it's wrong.

 

And as I said, I have not attacked you, I have not criticized your procedure, I have not said one way is better...they are just 2 different means of reaching the same goal.

I am moving on now, because I know these kinds of discussions always just end up confusing people even more, and that is something I always try to avoid doing.

[[Di...]]

Oh Steve I'm so pleased to hear you're almost done!!!! I do remember how confused you were at first - as is most people, including me. Now look at you - another Benzo Graduate. I feel like a mother watching her kid graduating from college ..lol...

 

CONGRATULATIONS STEVE!!!

[[bu...]]

I am certainly thankful for the taper directions I was given.  We all comprehend in different ways ... Builder's method of explaining titration was easiest for me to understand.  That said, I am sure every person learns differently so "all advice is appreciated".  Please know that everyone

:)

[[st...]]

I feel like a mother watching her kid graduating from college ..lol...

 

haha Too funny!!!

 

But I won't get my actual diploma till Thursday!

 

 

[[Di...]]

I won't bother copy/pasting again your earlier post that says "Make a new solution..." for 8 consecutive days!

 

If you are using the "leftovers" each time, there would only be 3 occasions over those 8 days where you wouldn't need to make a new batch, and sometimes newbies to titrating actually prefer to make a new batch everyday anyway, until they get used to the process. Also when you are reducing 1mg over such a short period of time, does making a new batch everyday even matter? It's going to get used up really quickly anyway. To go to the trouble of working out every time someone would need to make a new batch, and to actually explain that without confusing them totally, is just totally ridiculous. I can't understand why you are being so nitpicky or pedantic. I hope you can let this go now, because it's really gotten silly.

[[Di...]]

I feel like a mother watching her kid graduating from college ..lol...

 

haha Too funny!!!

 

But I won't get my actual diploma till Thursday!