Valium/Diazepam Support Group

[[ar...]]

I'm not sure about stabilizing....I know it's possible but I have never ever been stable so I'm crossing over at an unstable dose so how would I become stable. I not sure you read the part where I been ctd so many times I'm in ct withdrawal symptoms on 6mg of ativan which I been holding on for 4months and I tried Updosing to 8mg and it made me worse

 

The only reason I trying to crossover is to possibly be able to taper but 10 percent is too much toon I would like to believe that valium will make me feel stable but lol I really really doubt it

 

I was tapering ativan at 3 percent was far too much I lost my mind

I will stay here for support and help. Thanks for the response so far I could use some insight what you mean by valium won't cover all the symptoms.

 

Also my liver is not good

 

Hiphop,

When folks updose, ct and change dosing over and over, this causes some serious hypersensitivity in the cns.

It may take a month, months or even a year to find your stable point, but you won't find any relief until you stick to a plan.

There is no easy way out of this but thru via a taper that your body has the chance to recover on.

Once the cns finds that balance, you will find relief enuf to keep tapering at a rate that you can follow the healing at.

It is this waiting time thru bad symptoms that many give up, but it is nearly always required to get to that point where you can see the improvements.

If you stick out long enuf, you will find that sweet spot where you know how long you will have sx's and how long to hold until you feel better to cut again.

 

I feel scared whether I cut or updose or hold

I have good day and then psychotic nervous breakdown that are morbid and complete turmoil and agony I litterally lose my mind

 

During your taper you'll have to do all of those things except for maybe updosing.  You'll need to stick to the plan.  No way but through.  Better than another c/t.

[[li...]]

I don't understand how I'm supposed to stabilize by crossover to valium I have never been stable I can't do a symptom bases taper because my waves are too unpredictable and severe and it happens regardless of how high my dose is

 

The issue is that my receptors are so fried because of all the ct detoxes and I'm traumatized it clearly states in the Ashton manual that people who reinstate far out rarely stabilize and often makes things worse. That is my case.

 

Although I have been feeling BEtter in many areas after the first step with valium it just so happens to be my window period Also so I don't know how one would become stable  I reinstated at six mg of ativan and held for r months and became worse and worse. Hoping this feeling better is cuz the valium and not only window phase

 

I don't believe in the 'rebuilding GABA receptors' 'theory'. One could say some 'rebuilding' is in order, but not necessarily of GABA receptors. The human brain is complex.

If any receptors are fried, probably not the GABA receptors.

 

I think I read somewhere you have to be stable to cross over to diazepam and taper, but I don't know where I read that or if it is even true.

 

In truth, I don't know if diazepam would work for you. For some it does, for some it doesn't.

 

[[ar...]]

I don't understand how I'm supposed to stabilize by crossover to valium I have never been stable I can't do a symptom bases taper because my waves are too unpredictable and severe and it happens regardless of how high my dose is

 

The issue is that my receptors are so fried because of all the ct detoxes and I'm traumatized it clearly states in the Ashton manual that people who reinstate far out rarely stabilize and often makes things worse. That is my case.

 

Although I have been feeling BEtter in many areas after the first step with valium it just so happens to be my window period Also so I don't know how one would become stable  I reinstated at six mg of ativan and held for r months and became worse and worse. Hoping this feeling better is cuz the valium and not only window phase

 

I don't believe in the 'rebuilding GABA receptors' 'theory'. One could say some 'rebuilding' is in order, but not necessarily of GABA receptors. The human brain is complex.

If any receptors are fried, probably not the GABA receptors.

 

I think I read somewhere you have to be stable to cross over to diazepam and taper, but I don't know where I read that or if it is even true.

In truth, I don't know if diazepam would work for you. For some it does, for some it doesn't.

 

I think he exhausted all other options.  I would say he atleast tries it and sticks with the plan.  He has been through a lot.  I wouldn't put doubt in his mind.

[[li...]]

I don't know about that.

 

Faith can be dangerous too.

 

It's about making a choice, whether it works will depend on the facts.

[[Mo...]]

I don't understand how I'm supposed to stabilize by crossover to valium I have never been stable I can't do a symptom bases taper because my waves are too unpredictable and severe and it happens regardless of how high my dose is

 

The issue is that my receptors are so fried because of all the ct detoxes and I'm traumatized it clearly states in the Ashton manual that people who reinstate far out rarely stabilize and often makes things worse. That is my case.

 

Although I have been feeling BEtter in many areas after the first step with valium it just so happens to be my window period Also so I don't know how one would become stable  I reinstated at six mg of ativan and held for r months and became worse and worse. Hoping this feeling better is cuz the valium and not only window phase

 

I don't believe in the 'rebuilding GABA receptors' 'theory'. One could say some 'rebuilding' is in order, but not necessarily of GABA receptors. The human brain is complex.

If any receptors are fried, probably not the GABA receptors.

 

I think I read somewhere you have to be stable to cross over to diazepam and taper, but I don't know where I read that or if it is even true.

 

In truth, I don't know if diazepam would work for you. For some it does, for some it doesn't.

 

I crossed over to diazepam while I was not stable. At all.

It got me stable, since it too care of awful inter dose withdrawal on Ativan .

[[fr...]]

  Same goes for me, I crossed to Valium while having symptoms of i/d w/d and felt much better.  Now that I am tapering I'm having problems but Im holding right now and hoping to get stable.  If I don't I will try daily microtapering.  I don't know much but do know that crossing was best option for me at the time, I was suffering also.  Hope you can get somewhat stable Hip Hop, my best to you.

[[...]]

Builder,

Regarding your discussion with Arcade about waste and pulling your dose vs. discarding - I have a question too becau I didn't really understand that.

Say I want to do a daily micro taper reducing my liquid dosage by 3 mls per day. I don't get it - I don't mean to be dumb but I have the same misunderstanding. 

My doctor has me mixing 2 ml of liquid Dias with 50 mls water.  Then reducing slowly week by week - I want to do a daily taper and am trying how to figure out how to do this using his formula instead of mixing up a 1:100 solution and pulling off and tossing 3 mls.  I'm really confused win the math.  Can you figure out how I would do this using the 2ml:50 dilution?  I will be down to 32 mg of Diaz and I have pills (2,5, and 10's) and want to continue a slow taper reducing the equivalent of .3 mg per day.  By his calculations, the 2ml:10 water  I use 5 ml of this solution to reduce by .4 each day. What would I do? It's confusing to me unless I do it the 1:100 way and discard the stuff I want to reduce. But like arcade said, if they regulate your medication you end up tossing a lot.

I hope I'm making some sense to you because I am totally confused by the math but I really want to daily micro titrate - and the way the doc had me doing it was a weekly ( reduce ( his 2ml:50 water)by 10ml solution first week, 5 mls second week - which he says equates to a .4mg per week first week, 2mg second week.  I'd like to do a steady reduction of the equivalent of .3 mg per day.

I guess my real question is, how would I micro taper  using his 2ml:50 ml by the equivalent of .3 mg per day? Without waste?  I'm just not getting it .very very grateful for any math help.  Without having to toss solution because I don't think he's gonna go for that. Thank you builder .  Hope this doesn't just sound like mumbo jumbo.  I am so challenged with this micro tapering if it's not a simple 1:100 solution drawing out the toss.  Thank you again.

[[...]]

I guess I'm wondering how many mls of a 2ml Diaz: 50 water solution equals 1 mg of diazepam and how do I reduce by the equivalent of .3 mg per day using that solution ( that is the solution the doctor has me using ).  Maybe someone can help my math impaired brain......

Thank you everyone , builder, the rest of you -

Jan

[[Di...]]

Builder,

Regarding your discussion with Arcade about waste and pulling your dose vs. discarding - I have a question too becau I didn't really understand that.

Say I want to do a daily micro taper reducing my liquid dosage by 3 mls per day. I don't get it - I don't mean to be dumb but I have the same misunderstanding. 

My doctor has me mixing 2 ml of liquid Dias with 50 mls water.  Then reducing slowly week by week - I want to do a daily taper and am trying how to figure out how to do this using his formula instead of mixing up a 1:100 solution and pulling off and tossing 3 mls. 

 

 

I really need to be very to the point here because these terms “pull to dose” and “pull to discard” are really driving me insane. It’s these terms that are totally confusing people, and they are completely unnecessary, so can we please not use them.

 

You DO NOT toss anything. I’m sorry that there seems to be some kind of misunderstanding that the procedure I have written indicates that. IT DOES NOT and it is not written that way. You do not “toss” anything. You simply take the dose you need and keep the rest of your mixture to reuse next time. So there is no wastage at all.

 

Sorry, this isn’t directed at you Djd. It’s just frustrating me because I keep seeing people getting confused by this very simple process because unnecessary and confusing terminology keeps getting used.

 

 

I'm really confused win the math.  Can you figure out how I would do this using the 2ml:50 dilution?  I will be down to 32 mg of Diaz and I have pills (2,5, and 10's) and want to continue a slow taper reducing the equivalent of .3 mg per day.  By his calculations, the 2ml:10 water  I use 5 ml of this solution to reduce by .4 each day. What would I do?

It's confusing to me unless I do it the 1:100 way and discard the stuff I want to reduce. But like arcade said, if they regulate your medication you end up tossing a lot.

 

I would personally forget what your doctor wants you to do and use the 1:10 or 1:100 ratio. You are not “tossing” anything. You simply take out of the mixture the dose you want and keep the rest for your next dose. You can either do that by measuring out the amount you want to actually drink, or by measuring out the amount you want to keep for the next dose. It’s the same thing. The end result is the same – you just end up taking what you need and keeping the rest.

 

(edited to add)

 

To figure out how much to reduce each day, all you have to do is to work out over how many days you want to reduce 1mg. If you want to reduce it over (let’s say) 20 days, then you do the following, depending on what size mixture you are using.

 

10ml mixture ÷ 20 days = 0.5ml per day reduction

 

100ml mixture ÷ 20 days = 5ml per day reduction

 

 

[[...]]

Ya know what Pam?  I FINALLY GET IT!!!! I really do.  It makes sense now.  I'm really sorry about the trouble. I don't know why I was so thick.  Oh , yes I do. It's my benzo brain.

Thanks for your help.  Thanks for your patience. I get it now. Thanks , all of you.

[[...]]

Btw Pam I really appreciate all the info on your profile about micro tapering with liquid diazepam.  it has been a really big help to me and I brought the chart to my doctor to show the ratios.  Thanks for taking the time to post all of that for those of us who are struggling to get through all this and figure it out.  It is very straightforward.  And I don't know why it took me so long to figure out the " toss " issue.  Duh .

Jan

[[Di...]]

No you are not thick at all. I think it just comes down to getting your brain to work out something totally foreign to you. I was pretty thick at first too - trust me - just ask Fliprain who taught me how to do it.

 

What we all need to remember is to keep explanations as simple as possible because I totally understand how hard it it to grasp the concept at first, and unnecessary terminologies only add to the confusion. I'm not sure where the whole "toss" thing came into being. I can only think it started with this "pull to dose" and "pull to discard" stuff. It's completely new and is only something I started hearing probably in the last 6-12 months or so. I don't know who started it but it needs to stop because it only confuses people and is completely unnecessary.

[[Mo...]]

No you are not thick at all. I think it just comes down to getting your brain to work out something totally foreign to you. I was pretty thick at first too - trust me - just ask Fliprain who taught me how to do it.

 

What we all need to remember is to keep explanations as simple as possible because I totally understand how hard it it to grasp the concept at first, and unnecessary terminologies only add to the confusion. I'm not sure where the whole "toss" thing came into being. I can only think it started with this "pull to dose" and "pull to discard" stuff. It's completely new and is only something I started hearing probably in the last 6-12 months or so. I don't know who started it but it needs to stop because it only confuses people and is completely unnecessary.

 

I think I was confused with this at first ( when I did the milk titration ) and it was explained to me as to discard the portion I didn't need. Maybe because of the milk being perishable and you don't want to keep it for longer?

I'm not sure.

 

When I started doing the compound liquid, I had to " pull up " just a tiny bit. For me at most 1 ml. And just take that straight from the bottle.

I couldn't grasp the method at first, since to me it always had sounded like you need to take out a certain dose and drink the rest , as opposed to me now just taking some out of the bottle and that was all there as to it.

 

I think the " taking out" your reduction ( when you start a new batch of 100 ml and the reduction is so small) ...that tiny bit might be discarded and that's where it came from?

Cause what you take out isn't enough to save if you don't want to keep it longer than about 5 day?

 

Whatever it is, I do get it.

 

I might have not always explained it the best way , I guess.

We do what we can with what we know And try to help.

It's good when we can all call it the same so new people don't get confused. I thinkif it's explained two ways ( pull to toss or pull to dose ) it IS confusing but not made confusing on purpose. .

Maybe the person explaining it did understand it that way, too and tried to help.

I know I did.

 

 

 

[[Di...]]

Sorry Moodle, I wasn't directing anything at anyone in particular. I know everyone does their best to try to help people, but just lately in particular I've seen so much confusion with some newbies and it always seems to revolve around this issue of "tossing" or "pulling to ....." stuff.

 

I've addressed the misunderstanding about the method I wrote numerous times, but it seems to keep happening. I've even seen it written quite a few times that "Diaz-Pam used the pull to discard method". I did what? I never did, and I never said that was the way to do it. I always did whatever was the easiest at the time (KISS fan) - I either "pulled to dose" or "pulled to keep". So that's why I'm getting really frustrated.

 

When you write out a step by step titration method it's impossible to cover all bases. What I wrote was already long enough, so I certainly couldn't cover every possible scenario. You cover the basics, like just telling people to measure out their dose and keep or discard what's left over, and as they get used to the method they will work out the finer points for themselves. 

[[...]]

ALL of you have been tremendously helpful to me and I deeply appreciate it.  And you all know what it's like getting started and going through this - which is a big comfort to me.

I've only just begun this micro titrating and I'm not even sure how much I'm going to be " pulling" each day - have to discuss with doctor and kind of feel my way through to see what is the best amount for me. It's just that he was using a 2ml : 50 ml solution , not 1:100 ( or 1:99) and I want to make sure I get the amount of deduction correct.  I will be talking to him next week so I guess he can help me figure it out.

Thank you, Pam , Moodle, everyone - for your help - and understanding.  I appreciate it so very much.

Jan

 

[[mr...]]

ALL of you have been tremendously helpful to me and I deeply appreciate it.  And you all know what it's like getting started and going through this - which is a big comfort to me.

I've only just begun this micro titrating and I'm not even sure how much I'm going to be " pulling" each day - have to discuss with doctor and kind of feel my way through to see what is the best amount for me. It's just that he was using a 2ml : 50 ml solution , not 1:100 ( or 1:99) and I want to make sure I get the amount of deduction correct.  I will be talking to him next week so I guess he can help me figure it out.

Thank you, Pam , Moodle, everyone - for your help - and understanding.  I appreciate it so very much.

Jan

 

Hi djd,

Your prescription will say right on the bottle and would never say mL per mL as you listed at 2mL: 50mL if that is what you are saying?

It would say something like, mg per mL, such as 2mg per 50mL as you listed, but this would not make much sense because it would be like .04mg per 1mL.

My mom's valium was always 5mg per 5mL (1mg/1mL) or something that is divisible by 1.

 

[[Te...]]

Hello  BB,

Hope all you are doing well, I want to stop by and say that I'm doing really good, Thanks to BB and Moodle and ATU and all of you. 

To the newbies keep listen to our masters and there is hope and wellness.

 

Tex

 

 

:smitten: :smitten:

[[Al...]]

Hello  BB,

Hope all you are doing well, I want to stop by and say that I'm doing really good, Thanks to BB and Moodle and ATU and all of you. 

To the newbies keep listen to our masters and there is hope and wellness.

 

Tex

 

 

:smitten: :smitten:

 

Tex,

 

Great to see your post and really good to hear how well your doing. You are down to the lower numbers now so please go slow with as many holds as is needed. These lower numbers can be tricky.

 

Stay well my friend! 👍

 

ATU

[[...]]

Hey mrtmeo - my bottle is 5ml. =5mg.

My doc had me make my solution as follows. 2 ml liquid to 50 ml water.

Using that solution, I am wondering how I can micro taper by .3 mg per day.

I can't figure out the math.

Jan

[[mr...]]

Hey mrtmeo - my bottle is 5ml. =5mg.

My doc had me make my solution as follows. 2 ml liquid to 50 ml water.

Using that solution, I am wondering how I can micro taper by .3 mg per day.

I can't figure out the math.

Jan

If your solution is 2mL's of (1mg/1mL valium) in 50mL of water, you have 2mL( 2mg's of valium) in 50mL's of water, you have 52mL's of solution.

 

2mg divided by 52mL = .0384mg valium per mL.

 

What ever number of mL's you use from the liquid valium is always that many mg's.

I am not sure why your dr would want to complicate it like this, but maybe he/she has a reason?

[[Di...]]

Hey mrtmeo - my bottle is 5ml. =5mg.

My doc had me make my solution as follows. 2 ml liquid to 50 ml water.

Using that solution, I am wondering how I can micro taper by .3 mg per day.

I can't figure out the math.

Jan

 

 

If your bottle says 5ml=5mg that's the same as 1ml:1mg, but your doctor is wanting you to use a very complicated way of mixing that liquid with water, so frankly I wouldn't be doing it. Your doctor isn't the one controlling your taper - YOU ARE!! Please don't get hung on everything your doctor says, because your doctor has probably never personally tapered a benzo, so really has no idea how to do it.

 

How is your doctor even going to know what ratio you are using anyway? You're going to be doing it at home where he/she can't see what you're doing. Just get your doctor to prescribe the liquid and just nod your head and agree with what he/she says, and then go home and do what you want to do. It's not going to make one iota of difference how you mix it with water, except that you will be making things a lot easier for yourself if you stick to the standard 1:10 or 1:100 ratios. It's up to you to decide how you mix it, not your doctor. In fact most of us don't allow our doctors to have anything to do with our tapers. We just get them to provide the prescriptions and then we do our own thing.

 

The ratio of 2ml liquid to 50ml water is the same as 1ml liquid to 25ml water, but are you really sure you want to reduce 0.3mg per day anyway? That means you're reducing 1mg every 3 and a bit days. I know you're on a higher dose, but even so that's way too fast IMO, but if you really want to reduce that quickly you would divide the 25ml by 3 days and that would be about an 8ml reduction per day. Like I said, very fast, but it's your choice.

 

I always think a good place to start is a 5% reduction over a month. That's the low end of what is recommended, but you can always increase your reduction, but it's much harder to decrease. If your dose is around 32mg, 5% of that would be a 1.6mg reduction over a month. That would be about 0.05mg per day. 

 

So, if you follow the 1:10 ratio that would be a 0.5ml reduction per day or a 1:100 ratio would be a 5ml reduction per day.

 

(edited to add)

 

Oops meant to add that if you want to use your doctor's ratio, a 1.6mg reduction per month would be about 1.3ml reduction per day.

 

Also remember that when you make up a solution always add less water to allow for the liquid valium. Example...

 

1ml LV + 99ml water = 100ml solution

1ml LV + 9ml water = 10ml solution

1ml LV + 24ml water = 25ml solution

2ml LV + 48ml water = 50ml solution

[[...]]

yeah Pam I agree that he is making it  terribly complicated and the only thing that is stopping me from doing the 1:100 ratio is that I'd be using a ml a day and he'd be po'd that I'm not following his instructions, and I'd be going through the liquid too fast and he'd find out.  I am going to talk to him about using your method - it's SO much easier.  But I don't get to speak to him till next week.  I absolutely DO NOT  want to do a fast taper of .3 a day - I'm just so bad at math that I can't  figure out how to micro taper with his convoluted 2:50 ratio.  I think what I meant is a .03 ml cut.  This guy has me so confused.    I want to do it the way you did it, slowish - so thank you for those numbers - that is a help.  Id like to do a 1: 10 ratio and do a .05 reduction per day until I talk to him.  And I agree with you, just get the meds and do what you want but I don't want him to drop me for non compliance - so I have to be careful right now, till I can really spell it out with him. 

 

So , Pam ( you have been so patient with me)  I would dilute 1 ml of liquid Diaz to 10 ml water, correct?  Then in order to taper by about 5 percent I would deduct .05 per day ( 5, 10, 15 and so on)  but I don't think I can do that small of a deduction using the 12 ml syringe - the increments  are  too tiny.  I'd have to use the 1 ml syringe, right?  If I ever get this sorted out it will be a miracle.  Because as it stands now , I really don't know how much I have reduced. It's ridiculous.  I'm at the end of my rope with this and he will not talk to me until I finish doing what he told me to do- which was  2ml: 50 , deduct 10 mls a day for a week, then same solution and deduct 5 mls a day for a week " then email me on the 23rd " he said.  He said that 10 mls of his solution is equal to .4 mg and 5mls is equal to .2mg.  So by the end of the second week ( which I am starting now) I don't know where I will be at, how much I will have reduced.

All of this just to get rid of . 5 mg of my night time dose.  I am beyond confused. How do I get rid of the rest of that .5 mg using his method? Sharkey said he thought it would be a good idea to follow the directions for the first week then start deducting a ml more per day the second week.  Then I'd have three more days to go before the . 5 mg are gone but how much do I take on those three days?  I asked him on the micro taper thread -  I don't know where I'm at with the reduction- can't figure it out.

One thing I know is that I have got to get a better system of micro tapering going than the one my doctor gave me and I am bringing your chart with me to my next appointment because it is so much simpler.  Thank you EVER SO MUCH for your help.  Once I get my daily micro taper sorted out I won't be posting these stupid posts that are driving people nuts.  BLESS YOU!  I'm really really sorry for all the trouble.  Ever so sorry.

[[...]]

If anyone can just tell me how to finish that .5 mg reduction, then I will start making the 1:100 ratio and to #%^< with the doctor's convoluted complicated mixing.  It makes no sense.

[[ar...]]

DJD,

 

Any good benzo wise doctors near you that will let you taper at your own speed?  I know this is easier said then done.

[[...]]

And I meant to say 9:1  Or 99:1 for the correct solutions.  I understand that .