Valium/Diazepam Support Group

[[...]]

Is anyone still in this support group?  What do you do when you are in a Valium crossover and you Re on a high dose of Valium (35 mls) and every tiny cut makes you sick?  I thought at this high dosage I'd be able to cut like 1 ml a week or every two weeks but I absolutely get taken down when I try,so I've been cutting back tiny little pieces of the pills a week at a time and STILL struggling.  At this rate it's gonna be years and  hen all the paws and all that.  I am really discouraged.  Anyone got some words of hope and encouragement?  The Valium makes me so sleepy too.  I started a god taper Hehn blew it by cutting too much, kindling , my doc way over updosed me ( because no docs know what to do with these drugs) and here I am suffering.  Every day.  I'd appreciate any advice or encouragement. Thanks......

djd,

can you add your details to your signature?

This will help people understand your journey.

It sounds like you are in tolerance wd and it takes time to stabilize.

What did you cross over to valium from? how much were you at?

[[...]]

Hi ,  did change my settings.  Thank you so much for responding.  I hope my profile shows the changes.

Djd

[[jj...]]

Djd, when did you start titrating again and how fast are you cutting?

[[Mo...]]

Hi ,  did change my settings.  Thank you so much for responding.  I hope my profile shows the changes.

Djd

 

No,problem, any time

Yes, I do see the changes.

 

I'm wondering : are you taking ALL liquid?

And by what rate have you been cutting?

In what time frame, by how much, started when?

[[Di...]]

Diaz-Pam

 

It's not your posts, please believe me it's all me - I have read so much on daily tapering that it has become a blur - you are helping so many people - I am in a place that I need clarification for everything - specific schedules and explanations - I am in my head way too much.

 

Thanks Basha.

 

Over-thinking is one of the most common things you will do in tapering, and especially with titration because it is such a strange concept for a lot of people. That's why I always advocate keeping it as simple as possible and not getting bogged down in a lot of buzz words that often gets used. If I can help with anything at all please let me know.

[[Ba...]]

Diaz-Pam

 

thanks for the offer of help - It's good to know there are many BB's who have been so helpful and kind. 

 

No sleep for me tonight.  So early in my taper and already no sleep.

[[li...]]

Did anyone here do a straight switch from Klonopin to Valium ? Without crossover ?

[[Gr...]]

Did anyone here do a straight switch from Klonopin to Valium ? Without crossover ?

 

My husband is crossing over from Klonopin to Valium. He's going to take 6 days to switch over. However, I went with him to his doctor's appointment and the doctor said that people often do an immediate switch and don't have problems. I'm of the inclination that it's best to do it in stages so that you can see how you feel when swapping out one dose with a different medicine. But according to this doctor (a psychiatrist), it's done all the time. Keep in mind that after we showed her the tapering schedule she looked at us like we were martians. Afterword she thanked us for the education on tapering (not giving us a lot of faith in psychiatrists); but at least she was honest that she didn't know about using liquid tapering.

 

Here's a link to sample crossover schedules that I found. http://benzosupport.org/crossover_schedules.htm My husband is doing the 6-day crossover and so far is doing very well. He was on K for a few years after being on Xanax for a very long time. A few years ago he did an immediate switch from Xanax to Klonopin and didn't have problems. As they say, everyone is different. Since we didn't want to do anything too risky, he felt the six-day plan would be best.

 

Hope this helps!

[[jj...]]

Sorry Grace, but your husband's dr is wrong. Switching directly to valium from klonopin is essentially a cold turkey for a few weeks. Please consult the Ashton manual or Reg Peart's material. A six day crossover isn't much better unless your husband is on a very small dose, i.e. .25 or below.

[[Mo...]]

Grace, I agree with JJ, very much so.

Please try and get the doc on board for a gradual cross over.

I've crossed over per Perts method ,in about 17 days, which is more rapid than Ashton. thismis considered pretty quick.

Valium needs time to build up in your system . it will NOT cover the withdrawal,symptoms from Klonopin when doing a direct cross over, I'm afraid.

 

[[Gr...]]

We actually had shared with the doctor the two-week schedule in the Ashton Manual. However, after we got home from the doctor I saw on the Ashton Manual website is Dr. Peart's recommended schedule -- which  is essentially 7-14 days. Dr. Peart wrote that he felt a shorter (7-14 day) transition of easier and said 95% do fine. (I hope that's the case). Here's the link to his article: http://benzosupport.org/crossover_schedules.htm

 

My husband had been taking a total of 1.75 mg of Klonipin broken up into 4-5 doses (but never exceeding 1.75 total in a day). Instead of splitting the doses across 3 times a day, he's doing his usual 5 times a day. And every other day switching in the Valium equivalent for one of those doses. He's day three into this and so far seems okay. He feels withdrawal symptoms very quickly if he misses a dose of K. So far he hasn't had any of those withdrawal symptoms when Valium has been substituted.

 

Please let me know your thoughts based on this article by Dr. Peart. Based on this article and how my husband is responding, it seems that so far it's going okay. However, I'm very open to all of your suggestions. I don't want him to have a hard time with this.

[[Se...]]

Grace

- I see your signature. Is that yours or your husbands schedule? Are you both tapering a Benzo at the same time?

I would listen to the wise people here and proceed with extreme caution. Valium crossovers work great for some and are horrendous for others. It's very individual. And the Klonopin withdrawal may take a bit to recognize right away.

Blessings

Selah

[[...]]

Djd, when did you start titrating again and how fast are you cutting?

 

 

 

I started cutting from 40 mls July 17 and am down to 32.5 mls now.  Feel sick all day . Feel exhausted all day no matter how much rest I get .  Think I'm going to go crazy because how do you live like this and ever get off this poison??? And I have such a loooooong way to go.  I see people struggling with ✨2 mg of v and I think how lucky they are.  I've been just trying to cut teeny little peices off my pills - I'm not on liquid.  And it's still so hard when it hits a week later.  Oh please tell me this whole experience won't kill me.  I have NEVER been so chronically sick in my life and I feel like my life is ruined.  This is so awful.  Thank you for getting back to me.  I really appreciate it.  I feel like I could just hold forever and still not get any bettere.  I'm si k if I take it, I'm sick if I don't take it.  There's not good way. I would check into s facility if they worked but they don't have good outcomes from what I've read .  Plus I don't have the money.

[[ca...]]

Djd, when did you start titrating again and how fast are you cutting?

 

 

 

I started cutting from 40 mls July 17 and am down to 32.5 mls now.  Feel sick all day . Feel exhausted all day no matter how much rest I get .  Think I'm going to go crazy because how do you live like this and ever get off this poison??? And I have such a loooooong way to go.  I see people struggling with ✨2 mg of v and I think how lucky they are.  I've been just trying to cut teeny little peices off my pills - I'm not on liquid.  And it's still so hard when it hits a week later.  Oh please tell me this whole experience won't kill me.  I have NEVER been so chronically sick in my life and I feel like my life is ruined.  This is so awful.  Thank you for getting back to me.  I really appreciate it.  I feel like I could just hold forever and still not get any bettere.  I'm si k if I take it, I'm sick if I don't take it.  There's not good way. I would check into s facility if they worked but they don't have good outcomes from what I've read .  Plus I don't have the money.

Djd, that was a big % cutt it is probally why your feeling so bad maybe hold till you feel better and drop slower and les ~CD

[[li...]]

Unfortunately for me, a complication is that I take only a single dose of clonazepam a day.

 

So I can´t gradually swap doses of clonazepam for diazepam !

 

Lowering the dose of clonazepam and adding diazepam at the same time gives a very messy effect !

Also, diazepam can greatly potentiate the effects of clonazepam and lowering the clonazepam has direct physical effects !

 

While I could do something like adding a daytime dose of diazepam while keeping the clonazepam, the alternative is a direct crossover.

 

Btw, that ´Dr´ Reg Peart is not a medical doctor !! Physics ! That´s misleading. I don´t have a doctorate, would any of you take me more seriously if I had ?

 

Added comment: here is no scientific basis for the Ashton manual, there is not even an evidence base for the Ashton approach for switching from clonazepam to diazepam. While it obviously works in practice for many people, ´Klonopin, Ativan and Xanax are all much more potent than Valium (equivalents given in Manual). Xanax and Ativan are relatively rapidly eliminated. Klonopin has a half life of 18 to 50 hours compared to Valium's 200 hours, so Klonopin cannot be called long-acting. The suggestion that "Klonopin is the only long-acting benzo that is able to cover Klonopin receptors" is nonsense. There are no such things as just Klonopin receptors, as explained above.´

Clonazepam is longer acting than diazepam, the affinity for the GABAA subunits differ. There are some other direct and indirect effects as well.

Prof Ashton ran a clinic in which she treated about 300 people. I´m willing to bet that she never personally treated anyone on clonazepam.

So far on the ´evidence´. There is ´evidence´ in the sense that it works for some people.

[[or...]]

Djd if I were in your situation, I would first do a nice long hold until I felt better. 

 

Then I would switch from cut and hold to daily tapering with liquids. It seems like cut and hold is not working out for you, and there is an alternative. Cut and hold did not work for me. My taper improved dramatically when I changed to daily tapering with liquids.

 

The information about daily tapering is in my signature. Most people can tolerate the liquid valium from the pharmacy. If you can't, there's the vodka method, which is also in my signature.

 

Cutting small, accurate amounts daily is surely going to be easier on your brain/body than cutting "teeny pieces" off your pills. And you can make the reductions as small as you want to.

 

If you ask for help on the microtapering thread, someone will even help you plan your taper. Here's the microtapering thread link:

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=135284.msg1887938;topicseen#new

 

In any event, I would hold here if I were you and see if you can't get to feeling better before you resume any kind of cutting.

 

Best,

 

Okatz

 

 

[[mr...]]

Unfortunately for me, a complication is that I take only a single dose of clonazepam a day.

 

So I can´t gradually swap doses of clonazepam for diazepam !

 

Lowering the dose of clonazepam and adding diazepam at the same time gives a very messy effect !

Also, diazepam can greatly potentiate ethe effects of clonazepam and lowering the clonazepam has direct physical effects !

 

While I could do something like adding a daytime dose of diazepam while keeping the clonazepam, the alternative is a direct crossover.

 

Btw, that ´Dr´ Reg Peart is not a medical doctor !! Physics ! That´s misleading. I don´t have a doctorate, would any of you take me more seriously if I had ?

How is it misleading when he suffered benzo withdrawal after 40 years of personal experience?

[[fr...]]

  I took over 4 months to cross from 2.5 mg. Ativan to 20 mg. of Valium.  I didn't have an awful time but still wasn't a picnic.  NOw I have cut 3 times and each time I have to hold 3 weeks or more.  I am going to try microtapering at some point if my Dr. will give me liquid v.  I agree, a good long hold will help a lot at this point.  I am holding right now, Tues. was 2 weeks since my last cut and I am still feeling it.  It will end, just not as fast as we would like it.  I was on the A for almost 4 yrs so guess I cant just expect to go right off.  In the end it will be worth it.  ONe thing I noticed, I am dreaming again after years of no dreams so maybe some healing is already going on.  I sure hope so.  Hang in there, you will get there.

[[et...]]

If it wasn't for Ashton and Peart we would all be sitting in the corner sucking our thumbs.

Give me a break please

etown

[[Ki...]]

I did 16 day crossover and it was not easy but it's not as bad as the tapering. Now I am holding and waiting for my mom to come to visit so I dont lose my mind and then will try to taper that 0.25mg

Klonopin

[[or...]]

If it wasn't for Ashton and Peart we would all be sitting in the corner sucking our thumbs.

Give me a break please

etown

 

[[Mo...]]

If it wasn't for Ashton and Peart we would all be sitting in the corner sucking our thumbs.

Give me a break please

etown

 

:smitten:

[[jj...]]

Unfortunately for me, a complication is that I take only a single dose of clonazepam a day.

 

So I can´t gradually swap doses of clonazepam for diazepam !

 

Lowering the dose of clonazepam and adding diazepam at the same time gives a very messy effect !

Also, diazepam can greatly potentiate the effects of clonazepam and lowering the clonazepam has direct physical effects !

 

While I could do something like adding a daytime dose of diazepam while keeping the clonazepam, the alternative is a direct crossover.

 

Btw, that ´Dr´ Reg Peart is not a medical doctor !! Physics ! That´s misleading. I don´t have a doctorate, would any of you take me more seriously if I had ?

 

Added comment: here is no scientific basis for the Ashton manual, there is not even an evidence base for the Ashton approach for switching from clonazepam to diazepam. While it obviously works in practice for many people, ´Klonopin, Ativan and Xanax are all much more potent than Valium (equivalents given in Manual). Xanax and Ativan are relatively rapidly eliminated. Klonopin has a half life of 18 to 50 hours compared to Valium's 200 hours, so Klonopin cannot be called long-acting. The suggestion that "Klonopin is the only long-acting benzo that is able to cover Klonopin receptors" is nonsense. There are no such things as just Klonopin receptors, as explained above.´

Clonazepam is longer acting than diazepam, the affinity for the GABAA subunits differ. There are some other direct and indirect effects as well.

Prof Ashton ran a clinic in which she treated about 300 people. I´m willing to bet that she never personally treated anyone on clonazepam.

So far on the ´evidence´. There is ´evidence´ in the sense that it works for some people.

 

Not really sure how to respond to this other than to say, good luck with where ever your journey ends up taking you.

 

For everyone else, what is said above is exactly, in fact, why you do a slow, stepwise crossover for obvious reasons. Working the other way i.e. from less potent and longer acting to more potent and shorter acting, you could just swap out equivalent doses with the caveat that with shorter acting ones you'll probably have to dose multiple times in a 24 hours period to avoid interdose withdrawal.

 

For folks that are crossing over to valium or librium and are on a single dose of the current benzo, just divide up the dose into AM & PM or AM, Afternoon, PM doses before starting the crossover. It's pretty easy.

[[jj...]]

We actually had shared with the doctor the two-week schedule in the Ashton Manual. However, after we got home from the doctor I saw on the Ashton Manual website is Dr. Peart's recommended schedule -- which  is essentially 7-14 days. Dr. Peart wrote that he felt a shorter (7-14 day) transition of easier and said 95% do fine. (I hope that's the case). Here's the link to his article: http://benzosupport.org/crossover_schedules.htm

 

My husband had been taking a total of 1.75 mg of Klonipin broken up into 4-5 doses (but never exceeding 1.75 total in a day). Instead of splitting the doses across 3 times a day, he's doing his usual 5 times a day. And every other day switching in the Valium equivalent for one of those doses. He's day three into this and so far seems okay. He feels withdrawal symptoms very quickly if he misses a dose of K. So far he hasn't had any of those withdrawal symptoms when Valium has been substituted.

 

Please let me know your thoughts based on this article by Dr. Peart. Based on this article and how my husband is responding, it seems that so far it's going okay. However, I'm very open to all of your suggestions. I don't want him to have a hard time with this.

 

Klonopin to Valium is a bit dicey. Peart might be too aggressive when it comes to k, but if your husband is okay then that's a good sign. Of course the withdrawal from Klonopin doesn't really start to hit you until two or three days generally. Ashton says in her manual that she sometimes crossed people even slower than her normal crossovers when people really struggled with it. I did it "by the book" Ashton style, so a six week crossover over and I'm glad I didn't try to push it any faster because by far that was the worst experience I've ever had in my life. By a large margin. Sure made the subsequent taper easy though.

 

Just curious, did your husband try a direct taper from K?

[[Gr...]]

Hi Valium taperers, I have a question for those of you who attempted to taper off another benzo first, then switched over to Valium instead. Do you find the Valium taper so far to be easier compared to the taper of the initial benzo?