Valium/Diazepam Support Group

[[Mo...]]

I know this is a little repetitive.  I am having a very difficult time with my withdrawals.  I believe I am in tolerant withdrawal since Oct.14 and started my V taper in late April early May of this year.  I am in constant withdrawals and beyond uncomfortable.  I have been cutting .5 mg every 2 weeks and do have an upturn of symptoms after cut - but my day to day withdrawal systems are getting somewhat worse. 

 

I was wondering if I should increase cuts a small amount ( I could use liquid in combo. with pills) or will it make my day to day worse.

 

I have such a long way to go, am doing this without support and am one of the older BBs.

 

Don't know what to do - I never was able to stabilize on V and had updosed 3 times before taper - big mistake.

 

Please some input.

 

Thanks

 

I think updosing doesn't always work, indeed.

 

And if it were me, I'd not increase my cut but do a hold right now and then start a daily liquid taper.

If you're feeling so lousy right now, I'd say that won't go away by increasing your cuts.

Opposite .

 

I Hope others chime in on this..

 

[[Ba...]]

Moodle,

The problem is I always feel lousy - holding doesn't help and updosing makes it worse - Basically benzos are toxic for me - always in withdrawal - I wasn't cutting from mid Oct through April ( I did do a proper crossover from .5 K from Dec through Jan - with little to no problems. but V did not do anything for symptoms). I updosed three times, once during the crossover and then in Feb. and March and it made symptoms worse.

 

What to do ?  My p-doc just offers more meds - which is not happening - I'm feeling really bad right now, made a cut three days ago and have been told it's too soon for me to feel it, but it sure seems like a cut.!

[[Mo...]]

Moodle,

The problem is I always feel lousy - holding doesn't help and updosing makes it worse - Basically benzos are toxic for me - always in withdrawal - I wasn't cutting from mid Oct through April ( I did do a proper crossover from .5 K from Dec through Jan - with little to no problems. but V did not do anything for symptoms). I updosed three times, once during the crossover and then in Feb. and March and it made symptoms worse.

 

What to do ?  My p-doc just offers more meds - which is not happening - I'm feeling really bad right now, made a cut three days ago and have been told it's too soon for me to feel it, but it sure seems like a cut.!

 

I don't think it's too fast to feel it...

Some people feel,their cut 3-4 days after.

I didn't tuned to feel mine till about day 7-ish, I guess, when doing cut and hold.

What's the longest hold you've done?

[[Ba...]]

 

Moodle

 

recently I did a four week hold on V - and I did another four week hold on V probably mid May.  When I was on .5 K  after my second cut things went very bad and I held for at least six weeks before updosing and C/O valium where I waited to start cutting for several months - never stabilized and did updose 3 times on V in that time period - big mistake.

[[or...]]

Basha I agree with Moodle on this:

 

I think updosing doesn't always work, indeed.

 

And if it were me, I'd not increase my cut but do a hold right now and then start a daily liquid taper.

If you're feeling so lousy right now, I'd say that won't go away by increasing your cuts.

Opposite .

 

I Hope others chime in on this..

 

I certainly would not increase my cuts . . . and it sounds like cutting and holding does not agree with you anyway. So what do you have to lose by trying a liquid daily taper? Then you can make the cuts as small as you want.

 

You say holding has never helped, but if it were me when transitioning from pills to pills and liquid, I would do a hold. You don't want to make things worse.

 

Hope you can get something figured out. I know you've been struggling for awhile.

 

Okatz

[[mr...]]

Basha,

etown has a rule that helps determine wether to hold or cut called the 80/20 rule.

80% decent and 20% manageable.

There will always be symptoms until we recover, so we have to determine when to cut based on how tolerable they are.

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=66302.msg1482796#msg1482796

 

 

[[Ba...]]

mrtmeo

even before I started V taper I never ever felt decent only partially manageable - that's where the problem lies. 

 

 

oregonkatz

what kind of hold and what amount of daily taper would you suggest.

 

Moodle

Thanks for the input - I feel as if I am stuck between a rock and a hard place.  I've been cutting well under 5% every two weeks and twice every four weeks - like I said I felt lousy before I started and try holding and up dosing to stabilize prior to starting.

[[Mo...]]

mrtmeo

even before I started V taper I never ever felt decent only partially manageable - that's where the problem lies. 

 

 

oregonkatz

what kind of hold and what amount of daily taper would you suggest.

 

Moodle

Thanks for the input - I feel as if I am stuck between a rock and a hard place.  I've been cutting well under 5% every two weeks and twice every four weeks - like I said I felt lousy before I started and try holding and up dosing to stabilize prior to starting.

 

Yes,mot seems so, Basha...

I thought, after my cross over , than I'd never stabilize.

I think maybe it's the up dosing that might have made you more sensitive but I'd hope some people respond to that , besides me.

If it were me, I'd hold a bit now and then try to cut liquid taper,

[[Ba...]]

So I seems it is time to give a daily taper a go.  I will see my current .5  V cut through and then go to daily cuts and see if that helps.  I would like to use both Roxanne liquid and pills to accomplish this.  How much should I be cutting each day using liquid and 2 mg pills.  I would like to try an stay within the .5 mg cut every two weeks = should I be doing any holds? 

 

Please some advice would be greatly appreciated.

[[Mo...]]

So I seems it is time to give a daily taper a go.  I will see my current .5  V cut through and then go to daily cuts and see if that helps.  I would like to use both Roxanne liquid and pills to accomplish this.  How much should I be cutting each day using liquid and 2 mg pills.  I would like to try an stay within the .5 mg cut every two weeks = should I be doing any holds? 

 

Please some advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

You'd add 99 ml of water to 1 ml of liquid Valium.

( if you have 1:1 ratio, meaning 1 mgr Valium is equal to 1 ml liquid )

 

Then , if you want to cut 0.5 mgr in 14 days , you'd reduce 3.5 ml daily.

You should not HAVE to hold, that's why it's a daily taper.

But I found that I had to some times just to catch up a bit.

Otherwise, you could also cut less and keep going.

 

 

I can't see how much you're on total as I type this.

 

I hope someone will verify my math on this.

Maybe SG or Builder will come along. They are better at this than I am.

I got this example from Diaz-Pams method, it's in her signature

 

Here is the whole link.

[[bu...]]

Moodle's math is correct (3.5ml/day reduction) .

 

[[Mo...]]

Moodle's math is correct (3.5ml/day reduction) .

 

 

[[Ki...]]

Shastasage,

sorry your grandma is dying.

Your partner sounds like an abusive person but it's hard to tell because I don't know your Whole story.

 

My partner is telling me that there is no way benzos make me tired it's just a depression that pills cannot do that.

Idk I guess I just like to be tired

[[Ba...]]

Moodle's math is correct (3.5ml/day reduction) .

 

 

[/quote

 

So on the Roxanne liquid (5ml =5mg), I would be cutting .035 mg a day?

[[be...]]

Hi builder, Moodle or SG:

 

I already posted this on the micro tapering site. But I want to see what you guys think of it, so thank you!

 

I have a question about my liquid/pill taper off 70 mg of Valium. I think builder earlier on told me that if I want to drop by 5% every 14 days, then I should make a liquid mixture of 1 ml of liquid Valium and 99 ml of water. So if I do this then I believe he said to drop 5%, I would take 69 mg in pill form, and .25 ml in liquid. Next day .5 ml liquid et al. So my concern is that if I only take .25 mg, plus the 69 mg in pills, and leave the rest of the liquid for another day, then wouldn't I be dropping by .75 mg, when I should be dropping by .25 mg? Thank you for your support. Or shouldn't I be drawing out .25 mg of liquid, throw that out, and drink the rest of the liquid. When I first posed this question to builder, his response was no no  no! It would mean I would be wasting my liquid. Sorry folks but I have a bad bout of benzo brain right now and I suspect a bit of health anxiety. Thanks again. 

Bets

[[Ki...]]

I am back home I hope my mom will let me stay here for couple months until she will get tired if me again I just realized how messed up in head I am-soo dizzy

[[mr...]]

mrtmeo

even before I started V taper I never ever felt decent only partially manageable - that's where the problem lies. 

 

 

It took me a good year before I started seeing at what point my mom's symptoms were following the taper.

It is a very fine line, but some are so in tune with it.

I kind of found it by accident and it was at around 20% cut per month.

Some might not find that sweet spot due to a clogged liver and/or genetic mutations that affect metabolism of the drugs.

I don't know what is the best strategy for those and hope someone stumbles upon something that helps these people.

However, I do know that everyone eventually recovers.

[[bu...]]

Hi builder, Moodle or SG:

 

I already posted this on the micro tapering site. But I want to see what you guys think of it, so thank you!

 

I have a question about my liquid/pill taper off 70 mg of Valium. I think builder earlier on told me that if I want to drop by 5% every 14 days, then I should make a liquid mixture of 1 ml of liquid Valium and 99 ml of water. So if I do this then I believe he said to drop 5%, I would take 69 mg in pill form, and .25 ml in liquid. Next day .5 ml liquid et al. So my concern is that if I only take .25 mg, plus the 69 mg in pills, and leave the rest of the liquid for another day, then wouldn't I be dropping by .75 mg, when I should be dropping by .25 mg? Thank you for your support. Or shouldn't I be drawing out .25 mg of liquid, throw that out, and drink the rest of the liquid. When I first posed this question to builder, his response was no no  no! It would mean I would be wasting my liquid. Sorry folks but I have a bad bout of benzo brain right now and I suspect a bit of health anxiety. Thanks again. 

Bets

 

69+.75

69+.50

69+.25

69

68+.75

68+.50

68+.25

68

67+.75...etc, etc etc.

 

Its really not complicated.

 

No, you don't need to discard any med.  That's a holdover from the milk taper protocol, because milk is perishable.  Your pharma grade liquid V (or vodka mix) can be safely stored, so there is no need to mix a fresh batch each day.

[[Ba...]]

Builder, Moodle,

 

I'm a little confused - So on the Roxanne liquid (5ml =5mg), I would be cutting .035 mg a day?

 

How exactly would that work? I am on 13.5 mg currently.

 

thank you

[[Ki...]]

I have a question. I just started to have like fast thinking and talk to much. It happened to

me before during WD. Is it normal? It's not fun

[[Mo...]]

I have a question. I just started to have like fast thinking and talk to much. It happened to

me before during WD. Is it normal? It's not fun

 

I think what you might be feeling is the quite common " racing thoughts " symptom?

Lots of people experience that in withdrawal.

Mine were quite nasty. Thoughts, memories, anything would come up and I couldn't sto nor organize it in my head.

The talking too much is common for me in general 

[[Ki...]]

Yes racing thoughts  They told me it means I am manic but I dont think I am manic

I am just talking and talking and driving myself nuts

But why is it happening?

[[Mo...]]

 

This is a part of the post " what's happening in your brain "by Parker :

 

If a person takes a benzo day after day,  while indeed the person feels less anxious, the body begins to realize that it cannot DO the things it needs to do in this very slowed-down neuron state. It cannot make hormones. It cannot create enzymes. It cannot digest correctly. It cannot keep a heart going efficiently. It cannot get enough oxygen- and on and on. The body NEEDS to run at "normal" speed - not this "inhibited speed" all slowed down. 

But what can the body do? It cannot "remove the benzo" from the system. The only choice the body has to maintain a regular speed is to do two things ..  It can TURN OFF it's own GABA receptors - thereby rendering those benzos unable to affect the GABA in the system. And it can grow MORE excitatory Glutamate receptors to counteract the slow-down.  And that's kinda exactly what happens....

 

 

What about akathisia?

Well  - from the reading, the exact cause of akathisia is not 100% conclusive, but it seems to be related to dopaminergic and/or noradrenergic activity in the brain  (dopamine and norepinephrine or noradrenaline as it is also called). These are just neurotransmitters - and it doesn't look (to me) to be exactly conclusive WHY this happens - but akathisia can happen after the use of many psychoactive drugs- not just benzos - and likely because anything that alters brain chemistry can alter dopemine and norepinephrine. So - okay. That makes sense.  We all took "brain altering" drugs - and now some of us have akathisia.  Guess what?  It seems pretty normal!  It's not fun. But it's normal.  And it can come and go and then go away eventually.  For me, I didn't get akathisia at all until month 8. It was a surprise.  It was intense and awful. But it passed in a few weeks. Since then, I have had it off and on - but not to that degree.  And now - it's mostly just annoying.  Something as simple as a good hard cry in the bathtub can COMPLETELY remove it at times.  And other times, I just have to wait for a wave to pass. But all in all, from all this information - it's normal. And the fact that it's coming and going and I'm getting hit here and there - it's a sign that the wheels are turning up there in the noggin - and things are shifting and attempting to rebalance.  So if we can keep that quote in mind - it's normal - and while the sensation itself is very uncomfortable - if not painful - it can be regarded as a "good pain" if we are able to recognize that our feeling it means we have a brain and nerves that are regaining their abilities to function. "

 

-End quote

 

There are all sorts of nuts things going on during withdrawal.

Racing thoughts isn't one that is mentioned specifically but Akathesia is.

Why exactly racing thoughts and talking too much ...? I don't have the knowledge to explain that.

What've do know is that it can come and go. And come and go...

And that time eventually makes sure it'll stay away.

 

You might want to read the whole post

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=66397.0

 

 

[[Ba...]]

Builder

 

Please bare with me -

I don't see how I will be reducing by .5 mg every 2 weeks by the calculation - for example on day 1 I take 13 mg tablets plus 4.965 ml or mg of liquid ?  I am not getting it- so sorry.  Is it .4965 of liquid?

                                                                                                                                                                                    You take 13mg by tablet, plus...

 

day 1    4.965 liquid

      2    4.93

      3    4.895

      4    4.86

      5    4.825...etc. etc. etc.

 

You are reducing your total dose by .035mg each day, by reducing your liquid dose by .035mg each day.

[[Ki...]]

Moodle,

that's awesome but it's like a hell How can I just get the right speed? :'(

When I have racing thoughts its bad because I cannot talk normal and think normal

but if I am sedated I am soo sedated that I don't even want to talk

 

Akathisia- I have that a lot also. BTW we gave it it's name:

 

The term was coined by the Czech neuropsychiatrist Ladislav Haskovec (1866–1944), who described the phenomenon in 1901.[2][3]

 

I think everything when it comes to benzo is nuts

 

How do the doctors know if someone is bipolar or just in withdrawal from benzos?