Valium/Diazepam Support Group

[[be...]]

Hey kittensick: Well, at least you are not tolerant yet, so that's a good sign. The other day I had a crash moment night and slept for 12 hours too! I woke up feeling I could go back to bed for another three hours. I think many of us feel like we are is some like of Alien space ship, waiting for them to take our bottles away. Well, if you want to dance, then you best find another escort. That shouldn't be a problem for you!!!

 

Moo: Where are you? I see you posting, but not to me.  :'(

 

Arcade: keep up with the good work!!!  I think what Moo told you about your baseline would be the same thing I would have said. I think it's because you are healing. Great job. I plan to watch a movie in HD today.......

 

Where is Snowy and Tex?

Bets

[[Mo...]]

Hey kittensick: Well, at least you are not tolerant yet, so that's a good sign. The other day I had a crash moment night and slept for 12 hours too! I woke up feeling I could go back to bed for another three hours. I think many of us feel like we are is some like of Alien space ship, waiting for them to take our bottles away. Well, if you want to dance, then you best find another escort. That shouldn't be a problem for you!!!

 

Moo: Where are you? I see you posting, but not to me.  :'(

 

Arcade: keep up with the good work!!!  I think what Moo told you about your baseline would be the same thing I would have said. I think it's because you are healing. Great job. I plan to watch a movie in HD today.......

 

Where is Snowy and Tex?

Bets

 

Hey Bets,

Nothin personal, at all...

 

I'm just browsing and replying to some questions. Not a lot of chit chat in my head right now, today is a rough one... I do think of you and I read your posts..

Did I see somewhere you needed Augmentin once? I will,have to start taking it and I'm kinda scared.

 

[[Ki...]]

benzogirl,

I don't know if I am not tolerant. It definitely feels a lot less sedating and its only 24 days on Valium

but I am still bedridden,lazy,some anxiety,falling asleep,..

Yeah I sleep like that 12 hours and still very sleepy during day but anxious on top

Right? Alien space ship! well today I watched the whole movie I wasn't able to watch movies

for years only when I switched meds at the beginning,then no concentration again :'(

So my brain cannot be brain damaged I hope. I think it's too sedated or in WD that gives me racing

thoughts Doctors tell me I have to be bipolar then but I wasn't before pills. I think its all from pills!! And my BF is telling me it cannot be from pills that I think they can have soo much

power but they don't that it's only in my head and I just suffer from depression and that explains why I sleep soo much I think I sleep soo much because I take sleeping pills. Oh well

whatever

Dancing? Haha I just think about my past "normal" life when I was active and how I liked dancing,... I wish I can just throw all the pills in trash and do it again :'(

Now I am just laying here,too tired to eat,drink. Having a boyfriend is impossible because nobody likes my crazy Alien space ship Actually one homeless guy is interested in me

[[or...]]

Heya Moodle.

 

I had to take augmentin for my sinus/ear infection a year and a half ago. Everything was ok. No bad s/x. It didn't even give me gut distress.

 

It's a broad-spectrum penicillin AB and is generally pretty well tolerated. I am sure you know this, but just be sure to take a probiotic with it.

 

Hope this helps, as someone we know would say . . .  

[[Mo...]]

Heya Moodle.

 

I had to take augmentin for my sinus/ear infection a year and a half ago. Everything was ok. No bad s/x. It didn't even give me gut distress.

 

It's a broad-spectrum penicillin AB and is generally pretty well tolerated. I am sure you know this, but just be sure to take a probiotic with it.

 

Hope this helps, as someone we know would say . . .b

 

I found that it's th same as amoxicilin except it has clavulanic acid in it. I do respond okay to amoxicilline. So okay...

Going for it. Fingers crossed.

 

I never know what kind of probiotic to take, Katz... So many different kinds. I tried two during my taker but they gave me bad stuff.

 

It does help. Lots.

[[or...]]

Mood, I looked into probiotics a while ago and decided on this one. You can get it from amazon.

 

http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=jarro-dophilus&tag=googhydr-20&index=aps&hvadid=1100831621&hvpos=1t1&hvexid=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=251124936575161068&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=b&hvdev=c&ref=pd_sl_80tp2x0pji_b

 

I has 8 different probiotic strains in it, and according to the reading I did, 2 have been studied to have exceptionally good effects on the gut.

 

Anyhooooo . . .

[[...]]

CD, JJ, and Arcade,

 

Yeah, those curves actually have a mathematical basis based on the concentration of the drug in the intersticial fluid (blood?) surrounding the neuron.  I came across a site that showed how it is arrived at.  But without going through that the end result was that occupancy is related to dose by the following...

 

Occ=Dose/(Dose+Kd)

 

This is the relationship that produces the bendy curves shown in the link.  "Kd" is known as the "dissociation constant."

 

Once we know this dose/occupancy relationship we can use it to gain a little insight.  Like turning the equation around to solve for Dose instead of Occupancy.  With a little math you can show that the taper curve is shaped like a gentle slope that is steeper at first then slowly gets less and less steep as the dose gets lower, just as we would expect and have all experienced.

 

Another thing about this relation is that it behaves similarly but not quite the same as the "percent reduction" method that so many use.  Cutting by a percentage of the current dose is a very useful guide for most of the taper, but, as we all know, it falls apart near the end and becomes useless.  This Dose/Occ relationship does not do that and I think the reason is it is describing what is actually going on whereas percent reductions are just an approximation of this curve.  I'm not clear though on why percent reductions work so well for most of the taper.  Maybe that will sink in eventually.

 

But anyway, I think knowing all this gives a better feel for what is going on and that might result in better decisions.

[[Mo...]]

Mood, I looked into probiotics a while ago and decided on this one. You can get it from amazon.

 

http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=jarro-dophilus&tag=googhydr-20&index=aps&hvadid=1100831621&hvpos=1t1&hvexid=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=251124936575161068&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=b&hvdev=c&ref=pd_sl_80tp2x0pji_b

 

I has 8 different probiotic strains in it, and according to the reading I did, 2 have been studied to have exceptionally good effects on the gut.

 

Anyhooooo . . .

 

Thanks, Katz. I appreciate it. This sure hurts ..

Alright, there we go. Sigh..,,

[[or...]]

Whatcha got, Mood . . . a sore ear? That blasted sore throat again?

[[Mo...]]

Whatcha got, Mood . . . a sore ear? That blasted sore throat again?

 

Some sort of bladder crap.

 

No sore throat, no ear stuff. It's always something else. Knock on wood for the rest.

 

[[be...]]

benzogirl,

I don't know if I am not tolerant. It definitely feels a lot less sedating and its only 24 days on Valium

but I am still bedridden,lazy,some anxiety,falling asleep,..

Yeah I sleep like that 12 hours and still very sleepy during day but anxious on top

Right? Alien space ship! well today I watched the whole movie I wasn't able to watch movies

for years only when I switched meds at the beginning,then no concentration again :'(

So my brain cannot be brain damaged I hope. I think it's too sedated or in WD that gives me racing

thoughts Doctors tell me I have to be bipolar then but I wasn't before pills. I think its all from pills!! And my BF is telling me it cannot be from pills that I think they can have soo much

power but they don't that it's only in my head and I just suffer from depression and that explains why I sleep soo much I think I sleep soo much because I take sleeping pills. Oh well

whatever

Dancing? Haha I just think about my past "normal" life when I was active and how I liked dancing,... I wish I can just throw all the pills in trash and do it again :'(

Now I am just laying here,too tired to eat,drink. Having a boyfriend is impossible because nobody likes my crazy Alien space ship Actually one homeless guy is interested in me

 

kittensick:

 

Well, I had a doctor told me that I had bi-polar because I was taking SSRis and they made me manic. As soon as I stopped them I went back to my "normal" self. Then he said he got it wrong after about 7 sessions. What a fool. So many docs don't have a clue that a chemical you take can cause symptoms of a mental illness. I think after all of this time being on Valium, it is still sedating you, like you said. That might mean that 1. you are not yet tolerant to it, or 2. that you have w/d fatigue. That's what I have from my K w/d. In fact, I just got up from a nap. I never had it before when I was also on Valium. I'm glad a homeless guy is interested in you. Then you can have breakfast together at the local church. Why don't you ask your BF to take a bunch of Valium and then see how he feels? We'll leave this space ship sooner or later.

 

Moo: I'm sorry you are having a rough day. Did you make a cut recently? I think not, as I recall you earlier on saying no. You got that answer about that AB. I have taken it several times for a UTI and had no problems with it. My brand of probiotics is Align. That's what my doctor recommended.  You can buy it OTC but it is expensive. Maybe I'll check out Amazon.

[[Mo...]]

Hey bets, no I didn't cut. I'm planning to do one end of the week , a bit before flying back. So if I get hit, it'll be when I'm back and I don't have to travel.

 

Thanks for the tip on the probiotics.

 

I'm kind of done for the day.

Hugs

[[Lo...]]

Feeling just awful on a current dose. Been cutting lorazepam due to limited supply of valium. Not being able to get enough valium for a full c/o. Maybe temporarily raise valium by 2.5mg, drop that much lorazepam and then drop that 2.5mg of valium. Not really sure how to proceed since the place I am at is not sustainable.

[[Se...]]

Arcade -

On the flu shot...

 

My personal thoughts and research on flu shots is that it is a big scam and possibly more detrimental to our health than beneficial. I can post links if you want.

Last year, the flu shot was ineffective because they didn't come up with the right vaccine strains to match their guess as to what would develop by the time it got to the U.S. Neck of the woods.

I know there is a whole debate on this at the moment. So it's up to you. Not sure on the revving of symptoms. My gut tells me and my family no thanks.

 

I was in the hospital 3years ago - when I couldn't move, the FIRST thing the neurologist they called in asked me (after the regular doc thought it was Guillian Barre - was did you get a flu shot? Because it can cause Guillian Barre. Thanks (was benzos induced) but thanks no thanks. If the neurologist knows it's a probability I am staying away.

 

As I said. Each have their own opinion on this and I don't want to start a debate. Just do your research before you decide.

 

Blessings

 

Selah

[[jj...]]

SG, the graphs confirm what I have seen with "successful" tapers and that is pretty much what I based my taper on. I didn't do a symptom based taper, but tried to reduce my rate based on people that went before me. If you look at my rate of tapering you can see that most of my taper was at a steady .04 daily reduction before I started tapering at slower and slower rates. Pretty much matches straight up with the graphs. Most of my taper was pretty uneventful, aside from the last tiny bit where I ran into some problems. I think if I were to do it over again, I would have gone from .01 daily tapering to .007 when I got to .5 msg. Oh well, people can learn from us and do better themselves once they understand the principles.

 

Other thing that I noticed while tapering was that it was harder to stop and start for the holds than it was to slow down before I needed to take a break. Even though the reduction is very very small, the CNS seems to respond to the difference between cutting and holding, a little like how you can feel acceleration in a car more from stopping to low mph more so than the same amount when the car is already moving. Doesn't seem like much, but yeah, you can really tell. In theory, you might be able to base a taper on that graph without the need of any holds if you were clever enough with the maths, which I'm not.

 

Also, because the nervous system also is finally tuned to spot differences, subjectively the withdrawal for most people is going to be at the end not because somehow more damage has been done, but more because the cuts are more finely felt by the nervous system as the percentages get larger each cut even if they are very very small. A similar phenomena happens for example with alcohol in reverse, the first drink is much more intoxicating because you go from not intoxicated to somewhat intoxicated. The CNS interprets that as a much larger jump so to speak than it does when you are when going from your fifth to sixth drink and son on although the actual increase in intoxication is the same. So actually withdrawal may be much much worse earlier in the taper, but the CNS feels it much more finely at the very end of the taper. This is also why I'm pretty sure that people "train" themselves to feel very small cuts for example when they cut something like .01mg wait a week and then cut another .01 the week after. Far better, IMO and my own actual experience, to find a rate that is tolerable and stick with it rather than hitting the breaks and slowing down to a stop and then punching the accelerator over and over again.

 

Finally, you can see if most or a large chuck of this is accurate (personally I think it is) then you would certainly want to use a benzo for your taper that comes in lower potencies and with longer half lives.

[[jj...]]

Also, finally, I think this is what makes the argument for doing a daily taper rather than the cut and hold style if you are particularly sensitive. Notice that graph does not look like a staircase, lol.

[[Ki...]]

Benzogirl,

well when I took SSRis first time they made me completely nuts,suicidal,hallucinations,heart racing,no

appetite,no sleep,just hell. So I went to see him again and told him I cannot take this its hell. So he told me I just got depression and we have to increase dose to maximum Then I don't remember anything just that my coworker found me almost dead in my apartment and took to

hospital and they gave me more SSRis So now when I end up at hospital I warn them

I cannot take any SSRis and they look at me like What? Noo you just want your benzo so we stop them and give you SSRis So I am trying really hard to stay away from hospitals. Benzos dont make me suicidal,fast withdrawal can But never been suicidal before pills 

I saw soo many doctors and diagnosis that I dont really know My friend told me Well you live

in free country USA so you can actually choose diagnosis

Actually my doctor here hat knows me all life is worried that I am not actually crazy at all

She said I am bot bipolar,depression is probably from benzo. Anxiety I had little bit 14 years ago but managed with little bit exercise so never took pills. So she said she was thinking about it all night

and she thinks I have CFS She gave me her book, I read it and said Yes that's what it is!

But then the bad news-there is no cure for that

Homeless guy and alcoholic-great! That's exactly what I need now!

Oh I forgot he has a girlfriend and she is pregnant. Now I am not that sedated 

[[jj...]]

SG, I think it would be a shame for this conversation to get lost in the normal back and forth exchanges on this particular thread. If you'd be willing to make a thread for this discussion maybe in the chewing the fat or some other appropriate section and copy and paste your comments on this subject there then other people in the wider forum might see it and I can add my comment to it.

 

I think this is important stuff that people should be aware of. I think that at least some people will be able to avoid a lot of suffering if they bothered to understand what we are saying here.

 

Or maybe not 

[[Se...]]

SG, I think it would be a shame for this conversation to get lost in the normal back and forth exchanges on this particular thread. If you'd be willing to make a thread for this discussion maybe in the chewing the fat or some other appropriate section and copy and paste your comments on this subject there then other people in the wider forum might see it and I can add my comment to it.

 

I think this is important stuff that people should be aware of. I think that at least some people will be able to avoid a lot of suffering if they bothered to understand what we are saying here.

 

Or maybe not 

 

Jj and SG - is there any data or info like this for women?

Just curious as I know the hormone fluctuations for some are real doozies!

Thanks!

Blessings!

Selah

[[...]]

Hi. I haven't posted in a long time. Was wondering if anyone has ever noticed increased w/d symptoms when starting a new bottle of pills? Particularly the Mylan brand? Feel a little extra crappy and wonder if that is why. Started new bottle 10 days ago but kept on daily cutting. I'm also on liquid Roxane. After this I'm going to all liquid.

[[...]]

In theory, you might be able to base a taper on that graph without the need of any holds if you were clever enough with the maths, which I'm not.

 

I definitely agree.  In fact I've already done it.  You can turn the relation around to find the cut size that changes occupancy by a set amount each day.  If that set amount is less than the amount of healing in a day "in theory" you would always be in step with healing.  This cut size would slowly get smaller as the dose goes lower.

 

Also, finally, I think this is what makes the argument for doing a daily taper rather than the cut and hold style if you are particularly sensitive. Notice that graph does not look like a staircase, lol.

 

Yes, that's true.  In a way I guess a daily taper is a cut and hold with the hold time of 24 hours, but it traces the curve closely.  As we cut bigger and bigger and need to hold longer and longer it does a poorer and poorer job of tracing the curve.  The drug gets removed too soon and unnecessary symptoms emerge.

[[jj...]]

In theory, you might be able to base a taper on that graph without the need of any holds if you were clever enough with the maths, which I'm not.

 

I definitely agree.  In fact I've already done it.  You can turn the relation around to find the cut size that changes occupancy by a set amount each day.  If that set amount is less than the amount of healing in a day "in theory" you would always be in step with healing.  This cut size would slowly get smaller as the dose goes lower.

 

Also, finally, I think this is what makes the argument for doing a daily taper rather than the cut and hold style if you are particularly sensitive. Notice that graph does not look like a staircase, lol.

 

Yes, that's true.  In a way I guess a daily taper is a cut and hold with the hold time of 24 hours, but it traces the curve closely.  As we cut bigger and bigger and need to hold longer and longer it does a poorer and poorer job of tracing the curve.  The drug gets removed too soon and unnecessary symptoms emerge.

 

SG, do you have that posted anywhere in the forum?

[[jj...]]

Selah, you bring up a good point. Progesterone sits on gaba which adds some variability as does different rates of metabolism. There isn't going to be a perfect way of tapering because we are taking about a complex, living system that organizes in extremely complex ways and on many levels. That is the whole problem with psych drugs (actually any drug) where the intent is to effect one aspect of that system with our highly simplified understanding. Even small introduced chemical changes cause cascading results, which in turn cause other unintended results. I think that the best we can do is to try to get in the ball park of a reasonable tapering strategy based on what we do understand with the recognition that where things can go wrong they sometimes do and to prepare for contingencies the best that we can. So basically, get a good plan in place, hope for the best but be prepared for the worst, the worst in this case being more uncomfortable in withdrawal. Any slow tapering strategy is going to be a safe way to get off the drugs.

 

Hope that made sense. 

[[cr...]]

Katz,  that link had a gazillion choices of probiotics on it.  Which one or two do you suggest from that selection?  Thank you.  Cross

 

 

I looked into probiotics a while ago and decided on this one. You can get it from amazon.

 

http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=jarro-dophilus&tag=googhydr-20&index=aps&hvadid=1100831621&hvpos=1t1&hvexid=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=251124936575161068&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=b&hvdev=c&ref=pd_sl_80tp2x0pji_b

 

I has 8 different probiotic strains in it, and according to the reading I did, 2 have been studied to have exceptionally good effects on the gut.

 

Anyhooooo . . .

[[...]]

I definitely agree.  In fact I've already done it.  You can turn the relation around to find the cut size that changes occupancy by a set amount each day.  If that set amount is less than the amount of healing in a day "in theory" you would always be in step with healing.  This cut size would slowly get smaller as the dose goes lower.

 

Also, finally, I think this is what makes the argument for doing a daily taper rather than the cut and hold style if you are particularly sensitive. Notice that graph does not look like a staircase, lol.

 

Yes, that's true.  In a way I guess a daily taper is a cut and hold with the hold time of 24 hours, but it traces the curve closely.  As we cut bigger and bigger and need to hold longer and longer it does a poorer and poorer job of tracing the curve.  The drug gets removed too soon and unnecessary symptoms emerge.

 

SG, do you have that posted anywhere in the forum?

 

No, I've never posted it although I thought about it.  I just play around with it on my own.  Going through that exercise was a good way to understand tapering more clearly.