Remeron/Mirtazapine

[[...]]

I'm sorry for my statements, Parker. I am not well and I have lots of brain fog along with a host of physical symptoms, so I tend to read other people's messages rather diagonally.

 

But I've just re-read your posts more carefully and I continue to read in your words that it was the Remeron that acted as a healing aid (= fixing tool or cure or whatever you want to call it) at least in your particular case, and this quote from one of your posts suggests that:

 

"I made 1:1 connections with my symptoms and the Remeron dose - and it was clear to me that because Remeron was putting serotonin into my body, and serotonin actually can suppress glutamate and modulate gaba, that I was "holding back" the glutamate excitotoxity quite a bit with REmeron - allowing my brain to heal without this overabundance of glutamate continuing to damage my neurons.  There is a lot of science to it that I was able to "feel" firsthand as I controlled my dose and healed, and perhaps I will write a book later to help explain the benzo healing I experienced while on the remeron."

 

If you're on the extreme end of the spectrum, where am I then ? I have been 18 months med-free after a slow taper and still not sleeping, and in physical pain most of the time. I didn't even get one single positive effect from Remeron or any other drug while withdrawing, even though your theory is that Remeron helps the brain to cure itself from the damage benzos have left, or at the very least make your symptoms more bareable and controlable. There is even a science to it, as you stated. Science is supposed to work in every case and with a mathematical certainty. Without those elements it is not science.

 

You may not have used the words "cure" or "fixing tool" literally but the message is clear: Remeron solved most of your withdrawal problems.

 

People who are having a severe withdrawal have never been saved by Remeron as you were. It can't be and I don't believe it.

 

Everyone on this forum speaks from his or her own experiences, and my experiences with adjunct meds including Remeron were all bad. I can't change that fact. If the way Remeron worked for you, Parker, is science, then it should have worked for me and for everyone else who is dealing with the same problem.

 

I apologise if I come across harsh but that is how I feel. I would have spoken differently if Remeron had worked for me, but it did not, so I refuse to go along with your theories.

[[...]]

I would like to add that the technical explanations that you give, Parker, are just theories. They cannot be verified in any way, let alone scientifically proven. I realise that some people have the need to understand what is happening to them on a chemical level in order to get some peace of mind and in order to deal with their illness. But I also strongly feel that the word "science" is inappropriate in this context. For all we know, we are dealing with some kind of a placebo effect when talking about your miraculous improvement after ingesting Remeron. Placebo effects can also be fully explained in a logical way, just as you try to put some logic into your recovery process by dragging Remeron into this, and they have been observed numerous times during clinical trials, so this is one other possible scenario that cannot be dismissed.

 

I also stand by my choice to compare your theories with the chemical imbalance theories of pharmaceutical companies and psychiatrists. The fact that you used the word "science" when presenting your theories proves my point, because there is no science in the chemical imbalance theory and the reasons for your reactions to Remeron are just speculation as well. Numerous people do not respond to Remeron the way you did, and Remeron hasn't helped them in any way with their benzo withdrawals. And yet they are just normal people like you, with normal brains and ordinary receptors. The human brain is so complex and trying to analyse it is pretty much useless when dealing with something like benzo withdrawal. Modern psychiatry and big pharma are entirely based on the same principle of narrowing our problems down to chemicals and receptors, and history has shown time and again that this viewpoint does not work and that there's much more to it.

 

I know that you are describing how Remeron worked for you, but by giving a technical twist to it like you did and then even go as far as to call it science, I feal that someone who reads your theories might be tempted to forget that this only applies to your specific case and that not everyone will have the same outcome.

 

In an earlier post, you referred to a website I had mentioned because there it says that Remeron is not recommended during benzo withdrawal. You say that that information is based on anecdotal evidence only. Well, in my book anecdotal evidence is far more valuable than some fancy theory. This entire forum works around anecdotal evidence and experiences, and if the theories always applied then we wouldn't need to hear about each other's experiences, and this whole thing wouldn't be a matter of trial and error, and that's what it is basically.

 

The person who started this thread wanted to know how other forum members react to Remeron. So here we have two very opposite reactions to the same med in a very similar situation. Science can't assist us here, I'm afraid.

 

I have already apologised for my strong views on this and I will do it again here, but I'm not sure I have to. Remeron did not work for me so I'm allowed to give my opinion on it.

[[ra...]]

Dear LC,

 

I have often laughed at the term "medical science" as almost oxymoronic.  Many "good" meds were discovered completely by accident.  Google the discovery of Viagra and Rogaine as good examples.  Most doctors are not scientists.  Some of my doctors acknowledge this, and consequently seek my more scientific opinions to help them.

 

You criticized Parker, albeit nicely, about her liberal use of "science," but then went on to say you value anecdotal evidence more.  I am not criticizing you, but if you pool together a lot of anecdotal evidence, you get real evidence, and a lot of medical science is exactly that, although usually under a controlled setting.

 

As for the direct topic of Remeron, it is as scientifically proven a drug as any.  Medicine is not an exact science because there are just to many variables from person to person, and because of this, no drug works exactly that same on any two people.  This is annoying, but true.  Physics is an exact science, and when objects do not behave as we think they should, we then find out why, and then they do.  That was Einsteinian mechanic's improvement over Newtonian mechanics.  Even there, we still have issues and that is why physicist still struggle with objects is deep space and we now have "dark matter" which is still shaky.  My point is just that we need to do the best we can with the technology available.  Mathematics is the only exact science.

 

With too many variables to count from person to person, all we have is trial and error.  So my take is that if you are suffering with insomnia and/or anxiety, Remeron is worth a try.  It might help.  It might not.  And of course if you are doing ok, then adding Remeron is pointless.

 

My point of bringing up this thread was to let members know it is out there, and so they could see that people had both positive and negative experience.

 

I think that is being accomplished, and that members appreciate your insights.  At least I do.

 

Be well and good luck,

 

Ramcon1 

[[...]]

This discussion is getting on my system and I realise I'm partly to blame for that. I have very strong feelings about Remeron because not only did it not help me out in any way, it actually made my condition worse. I felt is was my moral duty to chime in and warn other forum members about the risks that come with taking Remeron or any other adjunct medication. In severe cases of benzo withdrawal, it is almost a general rule that adding more medication will only complicate matters. I have experienced this myself more than once with various drugs and I've seen it happen to so many other people.

 

Now, as for Remeron being a good choice during benzo withdrawal, I have strong doubts about that, and not only because of my own experiences. Has anyone noticed that there are only a handful people on this forum, maybe ten at most, who are trule excited about Remeron ? Not only that, in all those months I have been here, these persons have been exactly the same: Parker, ramcon1, builder, StaffyGirl and a few others I forgot. I'm not even aware of any new members to the Remeron fan club since I came here, about a year ago. What does this tell me ? That suggests that those who truly benefit from Remeron during benzo withdrawal are a small minority. Most other Remeron reactions range from "mixed feelings" to "I-wish-I-had-never-taken-this-poison", with "not impressed" being the average. Thus, my conclusion is that Remeron is no better or worse than any other antidepressant that you want to try in attempt to feel better during this ordeal. And like I've said many times before, two other benzo forums recommend their members not to take it.

 

With that in mind, does one really want to write a book on the healing properties of a particular drug during benzo withdrawal just because it worked for you, when statistically the chances of complicating your withdrawal are way higher than actually making it more bareable ?

 

If I had better writing skills, I'm sure I could write a book on all the meds I've tried to beat this illness and how they made me even more sick. And I could make up all sorts of theories to they reasons why they acted as such in my body and brain. It would never be scientifically founded but only based on my own experience and on what I've seen those drugs do to others who are in a similar situation.

 

What I meant to say to Parker is that I value anecdotal evidence (gathered from many, many Remeron users) much more than a theory that someone made up to explain her own symptoms, without knowing the true reasons why a drug worked for her. If Parker is so certain about her technicalities, then how does she explain why Remeron does NOT work the way it worked for her in so many other individuals who are dealing with the exact same GABA deficiency created by chronic benzo use ? I'm just curious.

 

I guess I made the comparison between Parker's theories and the chemical imbalance theory of psychiatry and pharmaceutical companies because I can't even recall how many times I've heard a psychiatrist set out very similar theories about how Remeron works in the brain, only to become disappointed later when it turned out that this drug did nothing of what I was promised it would do. After 20 times or so you get bored with the theories and you get annoyed with the people who believe in them and want to force them upon you. It doesn't impress me all that much any more, those theories. No offence, Parker.

 

 

[[pa...]]

This discussion is getting on my system and I realise I'm partly to blame for that. I have very strong feelings about Remeron because not only did it not help me out in any way, it actually made my condition worse. I felt is was my moral duty to chime in and warn other forum members about the risks that come with taking Remeron or any other adjunct medication. In severe cases of benzo withdrawal, it is almost a general rule that adding more medication will only complicate matters. I have experienced this myself more than once with various drugs and I've seen it happen to so many other people.

 

Now, as for Remeron being a good choice during benzo withdrawal, I have strong doubts about that, and not only because of my own experiences. Has anyone noticed that there are only a handful people on this forum, maybe ten at most, who are trule excited about Remeron ? Not only that, in all those months I have been here, these persons have been exactly the same: Parker, ramcon1, builder, StaffyGirl and a few others I forgot. I'm not even aware of any new members to the Remeron fan club since I came here, about a year ago. What does this tell me ? That suggests that those who truly benefit from Remeron during benzo withdrawal are a small minority. Most other Remeron reactions range from "mixed feelings" to "I-wish-I-had-never-taken-this-poison", with "not impressed" being the average. Thus, my conclusion is that Remeron is no better or worse than any other antidepressant that you want to try in attempt to feel better during this ordeal. And like I've said many times before, two other benzo forums recommend their members not to take it.

 

With that in mind, does one really want to write a book on the healing properties of a particular drug during benzo withdrawal just because it worked for you, when statistically the chances of complicating your withdrawal are way higher than actually making it more bareable ?

 

If I had better writing skills, I'm sure I could write a book on all the meds I've tried to beat this illness and how they made me even more sick. And I could make up all sorts of theories to they reasons why they acted as such in my body and brain. It would never be scientifically founded but only based on my own experience and on what I've seen those drugs do to others who are in a similar situation.

 

What I meant to say to Parker is that I value anecdotal evidence (gathered from many, many Remeron users) much more than a theory that someone made up to explain her own symptoms, without knowing the true reasons why a drug worked for her. If Parker is so certain about her technicalities, then how does she explain why Remeron does NOT work the way it worked for her in so many other individuals who are dealing with the exact same GABA deficiency created by chronic benzo use ? I'm just curious.

 

I guess I made the comparison between Parker's theories and the chemical imbalance theory of psychiatry and pharmaceutical companies because I can't even recall how many times I've heard a psychiatrist set out very similar theories about how Remeron works in the brain, only to become disappointed later when it turned out that this drug did nothing of what I was promised it would do. After 20 times or so you get bored with the theories and you get annoyed with the people who believe in them and want to force them upon you. It doesn't impress me all that much any more, those theories. No offence, Parker.

 

LC, no offense taken. I understand you didn't have a good experience with Remeron.  I don't doubt that and never have doubted you were telling the truth on that.  I think I outlined pretty clear parameters around that - I think you fall into that category of folks Remeron just doesn't work for.  ARE there people for whom this med is helpful in withdrawal? Yes. ARE there those that will not take to this med? Yes.  This is true with EVERY medication - not just psych drugs.  So - to me, that is normal. I have OFTEN stated several things - but the biggest being that NOBODY - not even a doctor- can know how you might react to a drug, vitamin, supplement, etc.  We can only study what theories we think are occuring in the body - and with the way a drug works - and then apply those to attempt to treat illness.  Still - not every drug works for every organism. This is a "given" in science. 

For example - a person might go to a doctor with an upper respiratory infection, recieve and antibiotic, and after the course of a 10-day treatment, they may STILL need another antibiotic to "kicK" the infection - whereas another person with the very same symptoms would do just fine with the original antibiotic without need for anything more. Why is this? Is this because science is not being applied correctly ? Is this because meds are "bad"? Is this because antibiotics "don't work" or are just "placebos"?t  Is it the doctor's fault for not prescribing the right drug?  No - likely it's none of these reasons. 

People - and people's lives and bodies are NOT like a science experiment. In the BEST science experiements, we try to control for as many variables as possible. We try to use large samples of people that are all as closely related as possible - so that IF we are testing a hypothesis, we are testing it on a group of people that are as CLOSE as you can get to "similar" - so that the ONLY variable being tested is the actual hypothesis - and the other variables (like age, sex, race, illness, etc) are the SAME.  HOWEVER, medical science has boundaries because truly, it is impossible to control for EVERY variable.  You may control for age, sex, race, etc - but you cannot control for the differences between people like genetic makeup, lifestyle, meds, diet, sun exposure, environmental toxins and exposure, etc.  So, the best we can do is study large populations in hopes that a large sample size will help fetter out the variables and show a trend towards or against a hypothesis.

 

Long story short, there ISN'T YET a large-scale study on Remeron and it's use or efficacy on those in benzo-withdrawal. There IS one study on ONE subject successfully using Remeron for benzo withdrawal. However, that is NOT a large sample size. HOWEVER, neither are the conclusions you are drawing about 10 or so people here on the forum being helped by Remeron.  That does not constitute a study, because that is simply responder bias.  10 people are helped. 10 others are not helped. That doesn't prove that Remeron is or isn't a good choice in recovery.

 

What we would need to test this theory is to do a large-scale study with those in benzo recovery that are all matched for dose, time on benzos, age, sex, taper length,  etc - and then apply Remeron to the situation to truly see on a large-scale IF some folks benefit from it - and if so, which folks?  At what Remeron dose?  At what taper-length from Remeron later on? With what side effects? With what benefits? ONLY THEN, scientifically, can a true study-based conclusion be drawn.

 

STILL - this type of study may find that 50% of the people GREATLY BENEFIT from Remeron, and that the other 50% of people do NOT benefit from Remeron. Such is the case - often - with medicine. Would this make it a BAD DRUG for recovery?  Not if you're in the 50% that it helps!   It can only be said that each individual would have to take a try-and-see approach. This is true with ALL MEDICATION. Antibiotics, pain-relievers, etc. 

 

Another example:  Many people are given opiates after surgery for pain relief. However, there are some people who have paradoxical reactions to opiates and have worse pain with them! Or there are people allergic to opiates altogether! Does this mean that opiates are a bad drug or do not work or are only working based on placebo?  No. It means that there are people for whom opiates work great - and there are people that cannot tolerate them.  This is as far as we have come in medical science so far.  We are doing our best to map the human genome and apply individual genetics to certain populations to see who will or won't react or tolerate or benefit from drugs - but so far, it's still trial-and-error - EVEN with good doctors, and well-established meds. 

 

Remeron is no different. I have said time and again:

1.  Remeron may or may not work for a buddy. One must try and see for himself. There are those that are helped by it and those that are not. 

 

2. IF you can get by in recovery without needing other meds, I believe this to be the most ideal situation. If you are NOT - and you are considering or planning on reinstating benzos because it is THAT bad, then trying Remeron is no loss IMO - because it just might work, whereas reinstating benzos is direct contrary to the goal of getting off benzos.

 

3.  Remeron helped me tremendously.  Contrary to what you suggest, it was not placebo effect. I am trained with a brain-injury background and have had courses on the placebo effect and statitical significance - so I do understand your point about placebos, but in my case, I kept good data on my symptoms and my Remeron dose and the relationship to my symptoms in healing was very clear.

 

4..  Even for those helped by Remeron, dose matters, as does how I tapered it, at least this was the case just for me. I had different reactions at different doses at different points in benzo recovery.  It's not easy to pinpoint anything in a changing, healing brain, but I am trained to be objective in my observations and to note the variables.  I controlled my dose with liquid, so it was obvious to me how much Remeron affected me, and how it affected me at different stages. Will another buddy have that same reaction? Possibly. And others will not.

 

LC- nobody is doubting your experience with Remeron. But you seem to be doubting MY experience with it.

I can promise that it made a huge difference for me.  But it does not suprise me that you didn't have this same effect.  There are simply too many variables between us for me to KNOW why you did not have the same experience I did  - but you seem to want me to answer for that, so I hope this helps provide that understanding. 

 

You said

"If Parker is so certain about her technicalities, then how does she explain why Remeron does NOT work the way it worked for her in so many other individuals who are dealing with the exact same GABA deficiency created by chronic benzo use ? I'm just curious."

 

ALL of these variables are the probable reasons. You canask this question of ANY medication - opiates, antibiotics, etc. - and you will see that different individuals can tolerate or benefit from them, while others don't.  That's normal.

 

Besides that, we are NOT dealing with the "exact same GABA deficiency" as you mention. Not in the least. How EACH person has made neuroadaptations in the presence of benzos - and how each person heals from that is NOT THE SAME.  It's similar in trend, but the effects and suffering and relative ease or difficulty with getting off benzos is NOT THE SAME.  How people's brains adjust is NOT the same.  It is the same overall trend, but there are SO many neurochemical individual differnences, that we all have different symptoms, different intensities, and different healing patterns.  Remember - that half the population can get off benzos easily! It's only those of us on the forum that represent the rest of folks. That, in and of itself, highlights the discrepancy of how folks react to this medication. Likewise, our subsequent damage and healing is also different. 

 

I have not stated or implied the things about Remeron that you seem to be inferring.

Again - if you can "do" benzo recoveyr without a med, that is likely ideal!

But if you are really bad off and feel the need to reinstate benzos, Remeron HAS helped some buddies.

It might help you. It might not. 

All of that is worth sharing.

 

For the record, Trazodone and Elavil (amytriptaline) did NOT work for me in recovery. But these work for other buddies great!  Remeron is what worked for me.  All that variation among people is normal.

 

:)Parker

 

 

 

[[Su...]]

I am one who has benefitted from 15mg Mirtazepine so I understand Parker's case fully!  I got off my medication through slow withdrawal but the last two mgs Diazepam was a nightmare.  I managed to struggle on being off all medication for two months, then out of the blue I was struck down with the most horrendous rebound withdrawal symptoms.  It's not a good idea to go back on benzos, as I found out, I sunk into deep depression to the degree a psychiatrist had to be called to my home because I became suicidal.  I did not want to feel like this but that's what happened to me, so going back on Diazepam, for me, was not the answer either!  I was so ill when the psychiatrist came round that I simply could not speak I felt so desperate and beyond thinking what was best for me to be honest.  Finally he suggested Mirtazepine but by this time he knew I didn't want to take anything!  He then said if I go and get you a prescription will you take it?  At that time I have to admit in my mind the answer was a resounding "NO".  However, as he had been so kind and personally went out to get them for me I thought to myself "I can't let him down, he's been remarkably patient with me under extreme circumstances".  I was like Parker, I had lost 2 stones in weight, couldn't eat anything, felt absolutely terrible.  That night in bed I thought I simply must try to help myself even if it doesn't work - I literally threw a  Mirtazepine in my mouth, swallowed some water and that was that!  Guess what - I am a changed woman - going out and doing things I never thought possible at one stage.  I feel very lucky that this solution is working for me.  I am reducing the 4mg Diazepam very slowly as agreed between my GP and the Psychiatrist.  I was literally terrified to take the Mirtazepine I have to confess but it has turned my life around, so at my age I feel truly grateful for any opinion and help anyone can give.  I read Parker's posts and put my faith there!!  So thank you Parker you saved my life, without doubt!

 

I fully understand that every case is different too!

 

Anyway, never mind about me - I am more concerned as to how Evertonfan is doing - I think about him every day and wonder!!!  Maybe Mirtazepine has worked for him - maybe not!!!!!  Anyway, I wish him well . . . .