Video, Dr. Josef Witt-Doerring, May/23: Can Med Reinstatement Improve Symptoms?

[[or...]]

2 minutes ago, [[C...] said:

I think it is helpful for us to have a prescribing clinician - irrespective of any concerns or complaints we might hold about his pricing - to detail some of his clinical experience.

Peers sharing their experiences and suggestions is what BB is about - of course I will agree that it is great! But it is not everything.

It depends on the doctor we are seeing, and seems to be darn few I would put my life in their hands.  If I can see the fruits of a doctors labor I might be inclined to trust them on a trial basis, that's about it though.  I have to have my MD as I have to yet finish my taper.  I also have to see a cardio because of a 3rd degree AV Node block I developed in '97, which may be a coincidence or not, but that was after '88 when I started the benzo oregonlady

[[Co...]]

10 minutes ago, [[o...] said:

another thing I have to ask myself, is why spend an exhorbatant amount of money when my peers that come here (and keep coming back) with their personal experiences, are a God-given "free" gift??

Again - I am hardly going to disagree! 

10 minutes ago, [[o...] said:

I can understand being attracted to a "better fix" instead of a lot of hard, and dedicated work on my own, but if I want yet another "quick fix" I'd just take some drug, be a pill-popper for 35 years, or injections, or whatever Big Pharma has to offer that lucky me, my insurance will cover.  I don't call that a fix at all after my own experience with a benzo.

The reality is that Dr. Witt-Doerring is outside of what is remotely affordable by most of our members, so the point becomes somewhat moot. Most of us will have to make do with more homespun solutions. And, for the most part, that's all that's needed anyway.

10 minutes ago, [[o...] said:

Good, bloody, luck selling me on some of these "fixes".  I've learned a few things from my mistakes, and I'm still learning, hopefully for the rest of my life, oregonlady

Even for those who can afford his services, for many, they will determine that they are unnecessary or a poor fit for them. But wouldn't be nice if everyone had the option!? I digress.

[[or...]]

2 minutes ago, [[C...] said:

Again - I am hardly going to disagree! 

The reality is that Dr. Witt-Doerring is outside of hat is remotely affordable by my most of our members, so the point becomes somewhat moot. Most of us will have to make do with more homes-pun solutions. And, for the most part, that's all that's need anyway.

Even for those who can afford his services, for many, they will determine that they are unnecessary or a poor fit for them. But wouldn't be nice if everyone had the option!? I digress.

I never tell anyone, I don't recall anyway that my way is the best, and I do read a lot,  But so far, just not seeing a better way for me with my taper.  I try to remain teachable because learning from others has gotten me this far, in a good way oregonlady

[[Tw...]]

5 minutes ago, [[A...] said:

Interesting.  Typically for me, if I stop taking it, I always feel something by day 4.  I'll keep you guys updated if any symptoms pop up.  One thing I have noticed is very mild anxiety, like almost unnoticeable, and some intrusive thoughts, but I've dealt with them before during my last Kpin taper in 2018, so at least I know what I'm dealing with and that they do go away eventually.

Also ty for complimenting my taper schedule I made it myself.  I decided to stop at 0.125mg before after splitting it into quarters it gets kinda hard to evenly split the pills.

 

34 minutes ago, [[o...] said:

another thing I have to ask myself, is why spend an exhorbatant amount of money when my peers that come here (and keep coming back) with their personal experiences, are a God-given "free" gift??

I can understand being attracted to a "better fix" instead of a lot of hard, and dedicated work on my own, but if I want yet another "quick fix" I'd just take some drug, be a pill-popper for 35 years, or injections, or whatever Big Pharma has to offer that lucky me, my insurance will cover.  I don't call that a fix at all after my own experience with a benzo.

Good, bloody, luck selling me on some of these "fixes".  I've learned a few things from my mistakes, and I'm still learning, hopefully for the rest of my life, oregonlady

It does take Alot of hard, dedicated work to quit taking Benzodiazepines. The withdrawal can be brutal and pure hell. If you can avoid taking Benzodiazepines, then it's better to escape taking the poison to your brain and body. 

[[or...]]

6 minutes ago, [[T...] said:

It does take Alot of hard, dedicated work to quit taking Benzodiazepines. The withdrawal can be brutal and pure hell. If you can avoid taking Benzodiazepines, then it's better to escape taking the poison to your brain and body. 

Before I got to BB, I knew so little about the C I took for so many years.  One thing I did "think" was that I needed it because I felt so sick and shakey if I didn't continue.  I was too busy with other things and honestly too ignorant of the damage.  I've read here on BB that only nowadays is light being shed on benzos, as back when, there was not contradictory info, just my opinion as again, I wasn't looking unfortunately oregonlady

Edited May 3 by [or...]

[[Tw...]]

[[Pe...]]

1 hour ago, [[C...] said:

Dr. Witt-Doerring is not a charlatan. And his hourly changes (in the US at least) are comparable to other psychiatrists. But I do agree that his withdrawal programme is very expensive.

$6,200 for 3 months and $3,900 monthly after is way more than any private psychiatrist I’ve ever seen. $500 an hour was about the maximum I encountered when I was in need of a well trained and respected psychiatrist (with anywhere from $150 to $275 or so being the usual) I know that’s not quite comparable since I’m comparing hourly psychiatrist billable hours to whatever this program is, but I’m not being facetious what justifies charging so much? 

Edited May 3 by [Pe...]

[[Co...]]

33 minutes ago, [[P...] said:

$6,200 for 3 months and $3,900 monthly after is way more than any private psychiatrist I’ve ever seen. $500 an hour was about the maximum I encountered when I was in need of a well trained and respected psychiatrist (with anywhere from $150 to $275 or so being the usual) I know that’s not quite comparable since I’m comparing hourly psychiatrist billable hours to whatever this program is, but I’m not being facetious what justifies charging so much? 

Are they his present prices? I know he reviewed his price structure a few months ago.

[[Md...]]

2 hours ago, [[L...] said:

Perhaps of interest:

Client Success
 

I appreciate the link. Some of the videos and reviews I have seen before, and this is the kind of content I'd personally like to see on his YouTube channel, but it just isn't there. Not that I've seen, anyway.

Instead, i find the channel to be filled with video titles like, "Benzos Killed my Husband", "Antidepressant Induced Suicide", or "Lion's Mane Causes Brain Damage", etc. 

Not exactly the type of videos I prefer to watch in the current state I'm in. I just don't find them to be very helpful. 

I understand that raising awareness can be very beneficial, but some of this is a bit too much, imo. But I guess people find value in this stuff for whatever reason, as his channel is definitely blowing up. If it truly helps other people, then great. But this is why I find myself watching videos from certain benzo coaches instead, because they are far more positive, and I think that's what we truly need during these times: hope, faith, positivity, etc. The human brain is a very powerful tool, and science has proven that it heals best when there are less stress factors. So just reading some of the titles on Dr Josef's channel can spike a bit of anxiety and and fear, especially when you're already in the midst a very confusing process of tapering. 

That's not to say every video on Dr Josef's YouTube channel is all negative, and I appreciate the videos he's made regarding different tapering methods and whatnot. 

However, I do find the disclaimer on the website a bit confusing...
Disclaimer: These results may not be possible for you. Your outcomes are determined by your unique circumstances and situation

I'm not quite sure how to interpret that. Does that mean I need to be unique in order to have similar results? Is it just a nice way of saying, "Benzos affect everyone differently, and we ultimately don't have control of that outcome."?

I find it to be very confusing, and unfortunately, this is how I have sometimes felt while under his care. It could just be my personal perception though. 

What I will say is that I am incredibly appreciative for Dr Josef and his wife for knowing how to stabilize me when I was having interdose withdrawals, as I struggled to find a doctor who knew anything about benzo tapering. I've said it before and I'll say it again, but it's very hard to put a price tag on something like that. 

Dr Josef has also gone out of his way a couple of times during my journey with him, and I am also thankful for that. 

Edited May 3 by [Md...]

[[Md...]]

3 hours ago, [[P...] said:

Im sorry he charges WHAT?? What exactly could he possibly provide that justifies this astronomical cost? This guy is a charlatan taking advantage of people at their most vulnerable. 

I definitely wouldn't say he's a charlatan. Overpriced? That's definitely worth a discussion.

But being a patient of his, I can say he's done things to help me that no other doctor I could find in my area could. 

[[Co...]]

1 minute ago, [[M...] said:

I definitely wouldn't say he's a charlatan. Overpriced? That's definitely worth a discussion.

But being a patient of his, I can say he's done things to help me that no other doctor I could find in my area could. 

What are his prices? I've heard varying reports.

[[Md...]]

26 minutes ago, [[C...] said:

What are his prices? I've heard varying reports.

The prices I pay differ from this particular program he was offering, which I believe started at 5 figures (I think that was posted in a video somewhere on this forum, if I remember correctly).

I, however was kinda grandfathered into an older pricing model and program because of the time I signed up, so I'm not sure if what I pay is even relevant to the discussion. 

Edited May 3 by [Md...]

[[Co...]]

Just now, [[M...] said:

The prices I pay differ from this particular program he was offering, which I believe started at 5 figures (I think that was posted in a video somewhere on this forum, if I remember correctly).

I, however was kinda grandfathered into an older pricing model and program because of the time I signed up. 

I thought prices had come down, not up!? Or, have they yo-yoed?

[[Md...]]

3 minutes ago, [[C...] said:

I thought prices had come down, not up!? Or, have they yo-yoed?

All I know is that right after I signed up, the prices slightly raised (I dodged that price increase because of the time I registered), then a 5 figure program was offered. 

The prices I pay have stayed the same, but I have no clue what the current pricing situation is for new patients.

Edited May 3 by [Md...]

[[WU...]]

1 hour ago, [[M...] said:

he's done things to help me that no other doctor I could find in my area could. 

He's spotted a very lucrative gap in the market! 

[[Md...]]

5 hours ago, [[W...] said:

He's spotted a very lucrative gap in the market! 

Lucrative or not, the real issue is that there never should have been a gap to even begin with. 

Too many doctors are simply uneducated and incompetent. Academia was infiltrated by big pharma a long time ago, and has tainted the learning curriculum, ultimately preventing critical thinking skills to be developed, and true patient care to not be a concern. The medical system is a band-aid infested dumpster fire at best with ridiculous costs no matter where you look. That is the real issue, not Dr Josef's price tag. 

Edited May 3 by [Md...]

[[jo...]]

15 minutes ago, [[M...] said:

Lucrative or not, the real issue is that there never should have been a gap to even begin with. 

Too many doctors are simply uneducated and incompetent. Academia was infiltrated by big pharma a long time ago. This is the real issue, not Dr Josef's price tag. 

This Guy's videos are almost exclusively worst case scenarios. But tbh, so are most youtube videos on this subject and many others. I think the reason is that people are more likely to click on disaster, it's just human nature. Like going past a car accident and not being able to sneek a look. Benzos are a business and now it seems so is benzo withdrawl.  I guess where all just storm chasers of sorts. It would be nice to see more content from people about the more common benzos stories to give some balance and help reduce the dread of us scrollers but I guess that just isn't good copy. 

Edited May 3 by [jo...]

[[Md...]]

2 minutes ago, [[j...] said:

This Guy's videos are almost exclusively worst case scenarios. But tbh, so are most youtube videos on this subject and many others. I think the reason is that people are more likely to click on disaster, it's just human nature. Like going past a car accident and not being able to sneek a look. I guess where all just storm chasers of sorts. Benzos are a business and now it seems so is benzo withdrawl.  I guess where all just storm chasers of sorts. It would be nice to see more content from people about the more common benzos stories to give some balance and help reduce the dread of us scrollers but I guess that just isn't good copy. 

I agree, and as I stated before, it's why I unsubscribed to Dr Josef's channel. I'd rather watch more positive and uplifting videos, instead of just doom scrolling or listening to worst case scenarios, as I don't think it does anything healthy for the mind. It's also why I don't watch or listen to mainstream news. Clickbait is what gets views and ad revenue. 

There's also a reason why health anxiety doctors tell their patients to not Google their symptoms. The amygdala is a sneaky little bastard, and the nocebo effect is all too real. 

[[jo...]]

37 minutes ago, [[M...] said:

I agree, and as I stated before, it's why I unsubscribed to Dr Josef's channel. I'd rather watch more positive and uplifting videos, instead of just doom scrolling or listening to worst case scenarios, as I don't think it does anything healthy for the mind. It's also why I don't watch or listen to mainstream news. Clickbait is what gets views and ad revenue. 

There's also a reason why health anxiety doctors tell their patients to not Google their symptoms. The amygdala is a sneaky little bastard, and the nocebo effect is all too real. 

Couldn't agree more! A lot of these content providers aren't to be trusted with regards to their motives. You should always be mindful of the reason behind their content. By all means make a living that way but provide us with a balanced view of things and not just go for the old shock factor.

[[Md...]]

23 hours ago, [[C...] said:

I also spoke recently with Dr. Josef who told me I have neuron damage and that's why this taper is so rough. I went to rehab in 2016 and did a cold turkey from 50 mgs of valium and suboxone and didn't sleep for eight days there. For two years I toughed out the aftermath and looking back was actually in better shape than I am now. But I reinstated because the back pain I had from the withdrawal was excrutiating. And for two years I was "recovered" -- I returned to work, travelled, socialized, etc. And then I had to keep increasing doses and I decided to microtaper off. This has been a different ball game. I can't leave the house and really don't like to get out of bed. I've been microtapering one mg a month for over two years and dropped from 40 mgs plus of valium and some clonapin and am down to 14 mgs valium; I had been at 12.2 but I could not get out of bed so Dr Halligan suggested I updose a little but am on a hold for the past two months because I incurred a labral hip tear.

I went to the hip doctor today for my follow up from the MRI. When I got there at 1:30 it was almost a three hour wait. I had to leave. I rescheduled for July. Hopefully the wait won't be as bad.

So I have a call with Dr. Josef to see what he recommends for a taper but I was shocked when he uttered those words. I am really looking for advice on the taper rate. Dr. Halligan advised 2.5 or 5 percent per month and another benzo coach I consult with said that would take forever and to stay at one mg microtaper a month. I will be 70 in November. This is totally overwhelming right now.

Btw, how do you like Dr Halligan? I wasn't aware of her until I saw your post, but she seems very knowledgeable. Do you happen to know if she practices out of state? 

[[Ca...]]

I like her quite a bit but she can only prescribe in South Carolina and only practices medicine there. I have used her as a coach, not a doctor, primarily to get input on my taper rate. I did ask her about Dr. Josef and she said that she and Josef had spoken about shared cases before, that she likes him and respects him and that she was not sure if he offered anything different (presumably from her -- not sure--he can prescribe in more states). My NP looked him up on Linked In and assuming she found the right guy said he graduated in 2019 and she did not see a fellowship listed nor the Taper Clinic. I can't access Linked In right now because I closed my account when I got sick.

[[st...]]

 

In the above video, he makes a few statements that don’t make sense to me:

At 2:32
https://youtu.be/clBCVXaTJCc?si=MNV0jGr0iYSPU4Kz&t=152

“In most cases the vast majority of acute withdrawal symptoms should fully resolve by about 3 months off the drug”

I have yet to find a verifiable source for such optimistic statistics. To my knowledge, most people on benzos never go off benzos. Those that do, go off because of unpleasant symptoms (likely because of tolerance). If being on it is already showing symptoms of injury, I’m pretty certain going off it will not be smooth sailing for most.

At 2:38
https://youtu.be/clBCVXaTJCc?si=ttjsqOeCigjzFoof&t=158

“It's because any enduring symptoms become less and less likely to be true withdrawal symptoms at this time after about 3 months. It's much more likely that the symptoms are more starting to be due to the second underlying process and that is symptoms from damaged neurons.”

Why does he separate:

(1) the withdrawal as a process causing the first set of symptoms up to 3 months, and

(2) the damaged neurons as a process causing a second set of symptoms after 3 months?

If that was the case, it sure isn’t what I experienced. Symptoms before and after 3 months are the same symptoms, caused by the same injury, caused by the same drug.

At 3:08
https://youtu.be/clBCVXaTJCc?si=bD2yc_s7ciY92BmC&t=188
“In a small subset of people withdrawal symptoms appear to trigger neuronal damage”

Is he blaming the withdrawal for the damage? It’s the benzo drug that ‘triggers” damage.

Here is Dr Ashton’s take:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0740547291900234
“The protracted nature of some of these symptoms raises the possibility that benzodiazepines can give rise not only to slowly reversible functional changes in the central nervous system, but may also occasionally cause structural neuronal damage.”

At 8:38
https://youtu.be/clBCVXaTJCc?si=kfp6TVVUwRWBl3ym&t=518
“reinstatement should also be aborted”

As he says this, on the screen appear these words:
“REINSTATEMENT
SHOULD ALSO
BE APPLAUDED.”
Now, is this subliminal messaging or a Freudian slip?

Regarding the topic of reinstatement, I like Dr. Ashton’s reinstatement paragraph here, sounds like she generally does not recommend it:
https://www.benzoinfo.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/Ashton-Manual.pdf
“Reinstatement after withdrawal? Many benzodiazepine users who find themselves in this
position have withdrawn too quickly; some have undergone 'cold turkey'. They think that if they
go back on benzodiazepines and start over again on a slower schedule they will be more
successful. Unfortunately, things are not so simple. For reasons that are not clear, (but perhaps
because the original experience of withdrawal has already sensitized the nervous system and
heightened the level of anxiety) the original benzodiazepine dose often does not work the
second time round. Some may find that only a higher dose partially alleviates their symptoms,
and then they still have to go through a long withdrawal process again, which again may not be
symptom-free.”

 

 

[[Ca...]]

As Ashton describes it is exactly my experience.

[[Li...]]

14 hours ago, [[j...] said:

This Guy's videos are almost exclusively worst case scenarios.

13 hours ago, [[j...] said:

You should always be mindful of the reason behind their content.

 

A primary goal of JWD’s YouTube channel is to raise awareness about side effects/adverse reactions associated with psychiatric medications.

 

[[jo...]]

When I read how much is charged for these services it seems excessive to me. In essence all benzo wise doctors can do is provide you with a tapering schedule and monotor your taper. I've even heard JWD say in his own videos that nothing else you can do really works and that it's only time that heals. There are many people on here who could tell you that and probably provide you with a good individualised tapering scheduel, for free. What are people paying all that money for really?