More doom and gloom on YouTube videos done by doctors and benzo coaches. Or just my interpretation????

[[Ga...]]

I follow some of the doctors, psychiatrists, and benzo coaches on YouTube, and it seems that lately they mention longer and longer recovery times, and even speak to permanent brain damage.  This, of course, unnerves me as I am in my 42nd month post Valium taper, and, therefore, am more sensitive to these statements and projections than I would have been at 18 months.

Josef Witt-Doerring recently discussed permanent brain damage on two different videos, in one he says benzos can cause permanent brain damage and on the other he says there can be permanent brain damage, but most people recover in months to years.  And, I have noticed more and more benzo coaches discussing setbacks which can occur many years out for no apparent reason, or may be tied to stress, antibiotics, alcohol, or diet.   In my second year I was probably more positive about my full recovery, and was not worrying as much about setbacks and a permanent brain injury, and it never entered my mind that I would still be here on benzo buddies at 42 months!!!!

Maybe I am just being a bit paranoid and making more of this than I should, but it does appear that there are many new benzo coaches who are competing for clients, and wish to deliver the best news possible, yet have to admit that there are some bad outcomes out there in benzoland.

These are strictly my observations on a bad headache day!   My good news is that a substantial amount of mold has been found in my home’s attic and, thus, may be contributing to my sinus/head pain/jaw pain issues.  The company I have hired has a 4.8 rating out of 5, and treats both residential and commercial properties:  They have performed mold and mildew remediation in the Smithsonian, in assisted living homes, in hospitals, in private medical offices, and in residential properties on the market.  They only use EPA green products and their remedial treatment is multi-layered.   The owner of the company said he has seen mold contribute to all sorts of health issues, including headaches, sinus and throat issues, respiratory illnesses, and CNS issues.  If black mold is found it can cause even more severe and life threatening diseases.  My home does not have black mold, but does have two different mold varieties, one of which is known to cause excruciating headaches!

Ok, enough about me…..how is everyone else doing???

Hugs,

GG

 

Edited September 14, 2023 by [Ga...]
Title needed to be more specific

[[Ki...]]

I find the more research we do,  can makes us doubt ourselves sadly

and loose faith in our own judgements even on the BB forum,

and this  can make us worse due to the stress this activates,

so now I try and listen to my own body as at 9 years off  many little things 

based on others opinions are attributed to Benzo withdrawal

and are often many other problems that need our attention also not Benzo problems.

sadly we are lead to believe others opinions  and doubt our own truths.

I too doubted myself at the 4 or five years off

and everything I read or researched  seemed to apply to me

and  sadly  create doubt  doom and gloom and stress for me.

Belief in yourself is a powerful tool on the journey of healing even from Benzos withdrawal

Keep on keeping on as the saying goes

Trust your own judgements to adjust things as you

assess them for yourself s it is your body and we are all different 

and then all will finally come right for you also.

[[Ga...]]

This is exactly what I wanted and needed to hear and I so appreciate you taking the time to write a message of hope and faith.

May we both continue to heal each and every day!!!

GG

[[le...]]

I’ve been watching a drama called painkiller about oxycontine, think based on true events. Does make you realise you can’t always take it as gospel with what some experts come out with, quite frightening how doctors and pharma companies, pushed this drug. I’m over 4 years still not recovered, scares me to death I will never recover. Think you are better off not watching videos like that, no one really knows just guesswork on their part. Also if coaches and psychs are charging people for counselling may be in their interest to tell people they will take longer to recover. Also  other factors can be involved, mine is only partly the meds, large part is trying to deal with what my family did to me. Sure lot people who have setbacks in future is due to other things not just meds. So don’t despair.   Hope the mould sorts out your headaches.

Edited September 15, 2023 by [le...]

[[La...]]

Hi Gardenguru,

The other day, I also came across a very brief YouTubevideo from Dr. Josef Witt-Doerring -- maybe one of the ones you're referring to -- and I found it upsetting as well. I don't know what he based that statement on, and I questioned why he would say that so easily and in such a short video. Ouch. Very painful for those of us who are struggling after so many years. I often appreciate what he posts, but that one.....No. It cast a huge shadow over me during a very, very difficult time.

[[Ga...]]

Hello.  Yes, that was one of his short videos and seems to conflict with a longer video in which he says that the damage can be permanent, but that most everyone heals in months to years!  I guess we need to filter out those videos that are distressing and just follow our own personal healing trajectory.

I pray today is a good one as you continue healing!

Hugs,

GG

[[La...]]

Thanks so much for your kind wishes, GG. Same to you.

I admit to not being able to filter things out so well sometimes, and I do think it's incumbent upon people who are posting such videos to be sensitive to the needs and situations of their intended viewers.

I do not subscribe to any YouTube channels, so I can't speak to any trends of what is being posted.

[[re...]]

Dr. Witt-Doerring seems to contradict himself in that short video you're talking about. First he says that benzo-withdrawal can be permanent in some people, because it's essentially brain damage. Then he says the FDA even recognizes something called protracted benzodiazepine withdrawal. Then he says: "Sometimes this takes years to fully recover."

OK, doctor, but even if it does take years to fully recover, that's still recovery, isn't it? Again, look at what he's done in this video. Is there such a thing as permanent benzodiazepine withdrawal? he asks. Yes! he answers - because there's something called protracted benzodiazepine withdrawal. That's pretty damned sloppy thinking for a doctor, I'd say. Protracted withdrawal is not the same as permanent withdrawal.

I'm not all that impressed with Witt-Doerring. If he's going to go around saying that only "the majority" of people recover, I think he then has a duty to produce evidence of anyone who never recovered. But I haven't seen any such evidence, from him or from anyone else. And actually, I wonder how such evidence would even be possible. Never is a very long time. Even if they found someone who had not recovered after, say, 50 years, how could they be sure that person would never recover?

All the authorities agree, and all the evidence shows, that we all recover, eventually - though of course, it does take longer for some than for others. That's why there's such a thing as protracted withdrawal, but there is no such thing as permanent withdrawal.

I challenge anyone who claims that there is such a thing as permanent benzodiazepine withdrawal to prove it. Cite the cases. Give us the names of those who never recovered from benzo-withdrawal. And if they can't do that, then I'd just tell them to zip it.

Edited September 15, 2023 by [re...]

[[be...]]

Just a thought..but maybe we should read more success stories. Doom and Gloom stories can dance around differently in brains that have high stress...creating more stress and anxiety.

[[re...]]

That may be true, @[be...]. But in this case, the damage has already been done. The doom-and-gloom vid has already been viewed. So the issue has to be addressed. There are a lot of helpful videos on line, and I wouldn't advise anyone to avoid all online videos. But there are also a lot that are misleading or simply wrong. So you have to be careful.

[[be...]]

I agree. 

[[lo...]]

I follow Josef Witt-Doerring on Twitter.  He is posting many videos about the harms that can accrue from psychiatric drugs so not just benzodiazepines.  I have never found the notion of permanent harm particularly distressing because I have known about the harms from benzos for decades.  I was trapped on them in the 1970s before the warnings came out in the UK in the 1980s.  I think it is true that some at least are left with longer term health problems because of benzos, I certainly have.  However I was on them for decades and suffered a very brutal withdrawal.  For some of us at least we hope for as much improvement as possible. It is 10 years for me now and my health has suffered.  I still have cognitive issues, memory problems and my stomach is a mess.  However I have improved greatly since the early days of withdrawal.  Some doctors would dispute the idea of brain damage but I contend that if the brain does not work properly as in my case then there is long term harm whether it is called damage or not.   I may be rather unusual in that I have never functioned normally since I started on benzos.  The harm started as soon as I started to take them but the symptoms were diagnosed as a "mental disorder", otherwise I would have come off them in 1975.  I had a brain scan in 2018 to see if there was any visible evidence of harm but I was told not, only age-related changes but who knows whether they are. really age-related, I don't suppose they even know.   I just try to make the best of my days and do what I can.   I should add I was on antidepressants for 35 years as well and tapered off Venlafaxine in 2015.  I have no way of knowing how much harm those drugs caused.  

I have been campaigning about drug harms on Twitter since 2014, the mood has changed considerably since then, more and more people are speaking about psych drug harms so the trend you see with benzos is part of a wider trend which I welcome as a campaigner because it is warning people not to make the same mistakes as many of us have done.  If the content is upsetting it is best to try to avoid it if at all possible. 

Edited September 15, 2023 by [lo...]

[[be...]]

Hey looking forward..you have come a long way and so have I.

Sure..we're still in this journey together and healing...wishing everyday our journey would shorten and we would heal.

I do want to be informed on all topics of benzos and healing..but if I read or watch all of the doom and gloom videos..I walk away with doom implanted thoughts and the brain goes down a rabbit hole of despair and depression. Sometimes it's hard to climb out of that hole.

It's been 10 long yrs of trying to heal and I still feel very fragile to stress.

Like you, I'm getting up there in yrs and this is taking its time.

Turtle speed isn't in our favor.

Much more healing to you!

Keep on keeping on. ❤️ 

 

[[lo...]]

3 minutes ago, [[b...] said:

Hey looking forward..you have come a long way and so have I.

Sure..we're still in this journey together and healing...wishing everyday our journey would shorten and we would heal.

I do want to be informed on all topics of benzos and healing..but if I read or watch all of the doom and gloom videos..I walk away with doom implanted thoughts and the brain goes down a rabbit hole of despair and depression. Sometimes it's hard to climb out of that hole.

It's been 10 long yrs of trying to heal and I still feel very fragile to stress.

Like you, I'm getting up there in yrs and this is taking its time.

Turtle speed isn't in our favor.

Much more healing to you!

Keep on keeping on. ❤️ 

Hi Beulah.  It sure has been a long haul.  I too am very sensitive to stress and can't cope well at all with many situations.  Listening to videos about psych drug harms isn't a problem for me because I live with the harms every day.  I do understand however that everyone is different.  I have been traumatised by the brutal withdrawal experience but have come a long way.  My biggest obstacle is having further medical treatment.  The hope I can offer is that it can get considerably better, the first 5 years were the worst for me. 

[[re...]]

@[lo...] In the short video that we're talking about ("Permanent benzo withdrawal?!"), Dr Witt-Doerring conflates what he calls permanent withdrawal with protracted withdrawal. It's a slight-of-hand, and it's more than sloppy - it's downright dishonest, and it's very harmful. I've had a protracted recovery myself, and while I'd say I'm 99.44% recovered by now - nearly 12 years after I came off clonazepam - I do still have some minor residual issues - maybe, possibly. But even those are improving, still. So if anyone told me that those residual issues were permanent, the result of permanent brain damage, I'd have to ask them: How do you know the damage is permanent? How can you know? Prove it, or zip it. That's what I'd tell them. No one should go around making such claims without very good scientific evidence. My problem with Dr Witt-Doerring, at least in that video, is the careless, flippant way he handled the issue. There is a world of difference between permanent withdrawal and protracted withdrawal.

Now this has really ticked me off. I'm sorry, but my anger is directed at Dr Witt-Doerring, and not at anyone still struggling with benzo withdrawal, especially protracted withdrawal.

[[lo...]]

19 minutes ago, [[r...] said:

@[lo...] In the short video that we're talking about ("Permanent benzo withdrawal?!"), Dr Witt-Doerring conflates what he calls permanent withdrawal with protracted withdrawal. It's a slight-of-hand, and it's more than sloppy - it's downright dishonest, and it's very harmful. I've had a protracted recovery myself, and while I'd say I'm 99.44% recovered by now - nearly 12 years after I came off clonazepam - I do still have some minor residual issues - maybe, possibly. But even those are improving, still. So if anyone told me that those residual issues were permanent, the result of permanent brain damage, I'd have to ask them: How do you know the damage is permanent? How can you know? Prove it, or zip it. That's what I'd tell them. No one should go around making such claims without very good scientific evidence. My problem with Dr Witt-Doerring, at least in that video, is the careless, flippant way he handled the issue. There is a world of difference between permanent withdrawal and protracted withdrawal.

Now this has really ticked me off. I'm sorry, but my anger is directed at Dr Witt-Doerring, and not at anyone still struggling with benzo withdrawal, especially protracted withdrawal.

I did listen to the video but I would have to go back to listen to it again as I can't remember what he said exactly.  I wouldn't call it permanent withdrawal, it is a brain injury.  I prefer brain injury to protracted withdrawal because it can take so many years for some of us to recover.  He may have got a bit muddled up with his terminology but it seemed kind of obvious to me that he meant the injuries resulting from withdrawal can be permanent for some people.   Of course we can never know if the harm is permanent until we are at the end of our lives then as we get older there is the ageing process setting in as well.   

Edited September 15, 2023 by [lo...]

[[No...]]

Being 76 years old I only have a few more years left to wait to find out if any of this stuff is "permanent" ... if I find out it is, I promise to come back for a bit and let everyone know ... until then, not holding my breath on the "permanent" thingie ...

[[re...]]

I think Dr Witt-Doerring may be suffering from what I call MYTIS: that is Monetized YouTube Influencer Syndrome.

A lot of people start out posting vids on YouTube from the purest of motives. But then, after their channel achieves some level of popularity, they may be MONETIZED; that is, YouTube will start paying them. It's all based on advertising, of course, and so what they're paid will depend on how many Likes they get, how many Subscribers they get, and how many HITS they get: that is, how many people click on their videos.

Well, these YouTube influencers pretty quickly get hooked on that lovely cash flow, and pretty soon it becomes much more than an afterthought. It becomes their prime consideration for what videos to make and what titles they will give to their videos. They may give a video a title that is a lot more interesting than the actual content of the video - and that may be what happened with this video we're talking about, which is titled "Permanent Benzo Withdrawal?!". Whoa! That's scary! A whole lot scarier than "Protracted Benzo Withdrawal" - which we've all heard about for years. So even though the actual content of the video is really about nothing more than protracted withdrawal, this good and monetized doctor has given it a much more dramatic title, and a lot more people will click on this video, because they think this "Permanent Benzo Withdrawal" is something new. Some people might call such a video "Click Bait".

I don't know if that's why Dr Witt-Doerring gave the video that enticing title or not. I certainly hope not, because I think that would be a real shame if it was just an example of the MYTIS TOUCH. Maybe when he realizes how many people he's frightened with this video he'll take it down - or at least give it a more accurate title.
 

Edited September 16, 2023 by [re...]

[[be...]]

Nova..how do you plan on coming back to let us know..do you mean as a 👻 ghost? I do think you meant that and I giggled. 

 

[[No...]]

Hmmm ... I am not too fond of ghosts ... they tend to not play by the rules ... I am sure I will have a bit of time while I am waiting for my judgment (it is likely to take a while for them to gather in all the witnesses), so I will just step out for a bit, borrow a phone, and post on BB whether or not things were "permanent" ...

[[Ki...]]

1 hour ago, [[N...] said:

Hmmm ... I am not too fond of ghosts ... they tend to not play by the rules ... I am sure I will have a bit of time while I am waiting for my judgment (it is likely to take a while for them to gather in all the witnesses), so I will just step out for a bit, borrow a phone, and post on BB whether or not things were "permanent" ...

Thanks for the smile  as several other threads are getting divisive  and argumentative  sadly.... time for a break whilst Im smiling thanks Nova 

[[be...]]

Nova...thank you for the 😃 laugh.

[[Pa...]]

@[Ga...], I’m hopeful the mold found in your home will be eradicated and you’ll get some relief from your symptoms. I don’t have anything to add about the increase in doom and gloom but I’m learning a lot from this thread, so thank you for starting it. 

[[Be...]]

Could you put a link to the video where the doc talks about permanent brain damage?  I've been off for over 12 years and I'm convinced I have permanent brain and CNS damage from them.

[[lo...]]

1 hour ago, [[B...] said:

Could you put a link to the video where the doc talks about permanent brain damage?  I've been off for over 12 years and I'm convinced I have permanent brain and CNS damage from them.

This is the video he made but he also made a shorter clip which I can't seem to copy and paste from Twitter.