using vodka or not when making liquid microtaper suspension from V and water?

[[op...]]

Openroad

 

I too have a lot of post graduate education (a PhD) but not able to grasp the math - never been my strong suite but especially with benzo brain.  This is why I asked Bob7 to create a plan for me. I think you may have seen it. It’s not in this thread, but in the former one you stepped away from (you didn’t want to “take it over”- although you weren’t!)

 

I’m wanting to start the 150 days because 300 days more for me fatigues me to even think about. In June of this year, I will have been suffering for 2 years. Over 1 more seems too much, frankly.

 

Bob suggested, however, to start with the 300, listen to my body for about a month, and then switch to the faster plan if all is going ok. Perhaps that’s wiser. I’ll think about it a bit more.

 

I don’t yet know how I’ll switch if 150 days is too fast- will probably ask Bob7 to recalculate for me (unless I begin to catch on with experience).

 

These are my thoughts today, which, BTW, has gone better than yesterday. I’ll take it

 

Rascal

 

Rascal - yes, I'm with you with not wanting to drag these 3.5mg out for a whole year! I'm also thinking that starting with the longer taper schedule (300 days once I'm down to 3mg) and then simply doubling what I remove if I want to go faster might be easier than doing it the other way around ... though I suppose you could slow it down by taking just half an addt'l ml out instead of a whole one each day? Either way, good to be in conversation about it! I'm SO glad you're doing a little better today, too.

[[op...]]

Hi!

 

I wanted to share a bit of my perspective regarding water suspensions.  I'm generally positive about people doing DLMT using water suspensions, but there's a lot about them that we have no 'hard' science for. 

 

For example - we don't really know the state of the mixture when it's fully made (pill + vodka - mix + water - mix).  It's certainly not a true "solution" whether made with alcohol or PG, but it could be a fairly stable suspension - perhaps even a highly stable colloidal suspension.  We don't know with certainty.  The hardness of the water you use might very well affect the stability.  The container itself might bind some of the drug during storage.  So we can't say with precision or confidence how long these mixtures will last.

 

So I want to encourage you to keep notes about what you do and how it seems to work for you.  If you make a week's worth of mixture and you feel worse on day 4 or 5, then perhaps that mixture is only stable for 3 days.  Again - I wish we had all of the data to give you complete answers, but we don't.

 

Personally - I favor using some alcohol to initially dissolve the drug (before adding the water).  I did a little experiment once using a dye with similar solubility properties to many benzos and initially dissolving the dye in alcohol improved overall dispersion significantly.  Again - not a definitive experiment, but consistent with predictions. 

 

I also think that using alcohol helps to liberate the drug from the pill's insoluble matrix.  We don't know exactly which 'inert ingredients' a manufacturer has used to make a pill so again no definitive studies.  But in theory, using vodka initially should help to get the ingredients better separated from one another.

 

PG is usable, but it takes longer to get the drug dissolved in it because it's kind of viscous.  Alcohol (vodka) is much easier to use.

 

Hope this info is useful.

 

Badsocref - appreciate your input here, thank you! It's nothing short of criminal that we are all left to play chemist because the pharmaceutical companies and doctors aren't taking responsibility and doing the appropriate scientific labor to figure out how to help us out of this predicament. I will do a new batch each day just to be safe. As far as the vodka, it REALLY doesn't agree with me even before this benzo nonsense ... and I'm struggling with some digestive issues to boot, which prohibit alcohol ... so I am a bit torn about what to do here. Will think on it. And monitor all very closely. Thanks!

[[op...]]

Rascal,

 

Here's another thread you might be interested in reading about taper speed. Kate08 went quite a bit faster than what we are looking at and did fine with it. Much to think about!

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=264666.0

[[je...]]

Rascal,

 

Here's another thread you might be interested in reading about taper speed. Kate08 went quite a bit faster than what we are looking at and did fine with it. Much to think about!

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=264666.0

 

openroad, I tried to go faster in December going off other signatures I've seen and I got hit with massive symptoms. I knew it was a possibility and I'm very glad I tried because now I know I cannot tolerate it. But yeah, I struggled.

 

[[op...]]

jelly baby -

thanks for sharing that! It's so tricky to figure out what's right. My plan is to start slower and then increase speed if it feels ok. mostly, i also want to be off the mirtazapine, which I probably can't stop while withdrawing ... and I don't want to be on the mirtazapine for another year and change! But we will see. Thanks for your input, and I hope the rest of your taper goes super smoothly!

[Guest [ba...]]

I understand about not wanting to add alcohol to your life, but you wouldn't be using much.  If you crushed the pill into 5 ml (1 level teaspoon) of vodka for a few minutes then diluted to 300 ml, the final alcohol content would be a mere 0.66% by volume. 

 

For perspective - that's only about double the alcohol content found in fresh baked wheat bread.  (the yeast makes alcohol - some types of bread contain over 1% alcohol).  It's only barely more alcohol content than is often found in ripe bananas and freshly squeezed orange juice (OJ can contain as much as 0.73% alcohol in it, by volume).

[[op...]]

Badsocref -

 

What if I wanted to start with using liquid taper only for my .5mg? (And take the remaining 3mg in tablets?) I just posted a question about this on the titration board but wondering what you think.

 

I'd have my .5mg pill, 1 ml of vodka (or PG, but I can try the vodka), and 20 ml of water for a 21-day taper.

 

Would this work? I was hoping to be able to mix pills and liquid, but now realizing I'm not sure if you need a base amount of dilution for DLMT?

 

And of course the alcohol content would be a lot stronger, too, I suppose ... ?

[[ra...]]

Rascal,

 

Here's another thread you might be interested in reading about taper speed. Kate08 went quite a bit faster than what we are looking at and did fine with it. Much to think about!

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=264666.0

 

Hey openroad!

 

I had read the dialog with Kate and it was good to re-read it.

 

So you’re planning to only use the liquid for the .5 (and take 3mgs by tablet) each day? Is that to simplify the math?

 

I’d like the .5 GONE (of course I want this whole business gone!)

 

You may have a good idea if I grasp it correctly.

 

What % proof vodka will you use?

 

Questions, questions….. I’ll be glad when the process becomes so much more familiar. I’m beginning to feel like I did (nervous and overthinking everything) before I even began the Ashton method! 🥴

 

Rascal

 

[[op...]]

I think I'd like to see how I tolerate the liquid taper by starting with just the .5mg.

But I don't know if it's ok to do a DLMT with only 20 ml or so of liquid ... hoping badsocref or someone more knowledgeable will offer an opinion

[[ra...]]

Funny- I’m somewhat more concerned with the .5 tablet as it can be so unknown how much of the benzo is actually in each 1/4 of a (whole) tablet, from what I’ve read.

 

That’s in part why I’m considering using all of one 2mg tablet plus 3/4 of another to make the liquid. But still thinking.

 

Hate this pharmacological guessing. Yep- here comes the anger 😠

 

Rascal

[[op...]]

Yes, but either way we have to weigh out that 1/4 (or 3/4) of a tablet - whether it goes into the liquid or we just take it, right? I hear you - very frustrating!

[Guest [ba...]]

I think it should be fine (better, actually) to taper 0.5 mg at a time while taking the rest of your dose as a solid.  That should allow you to use less alcohol to make up the initial slurry.  I'd personally be happier with 2 ml - simply because some of the alcohol will evaporate while you're mixing the pill into it.

 

When I owned/ran the drug lab, we routinely tested CBD and THC pills for uniformity and the drug tended to be very evenly distributed throughout the pill.  Pills are made kind of like you make sugar cookies, except those companies mix the 'cookie dough' much much longer than you would.

[[op...]]

Right, but I'd only be diluting it with 20 ml water. And that's ok?  Thanks!

[Guest [ba...]]

The final water volume doesn't matter all that much.  Some people use 300 ml (it makes for a 300 day taper @ 1 ml per day).  Some people use 100 ml.  20 ml for what you're doing should be fine.

[[op...]]

Much thanks!

[[gr...]]

I wouldn't worry about the med not being distributed evenly throughout the pill. I am doing a water taper and putting .1mg of lorazapam in a jar dissolving with a small amt of vodka and then mixing with my water. This is a very tiny piece of the pill and it seems to be working fine.

[[gr...]]

Badsocref, I have a question. How much vodka should I be using with .1mg of lorazepam? 2 drops seem to dissolve it pretty quickly but not sure if I should be using more Vodka? 

Thank you!!

[Guest [ba...]]

Badsocref, I have a question. How much vodka should I be using with .1mg of lorazepam? 2 drops seem to dissolve it pretty quickly but not sure if I should be using more Vodka? 

Thank you!!

 

It's not much drug so it might go into 2 drops as long as the alcohol doesn't evaporate.  Personally, I'd use 1-2 ml.

[[gr...]]

Thank you Badsocref !  One other question, Do you know what the lowest dosage on the lorazepam Intensol is? I was trying to find out and it looks like the lowest marking on the dropper is .25mg. Is that the case or can it go lower.  I'm thinking it might  be easier to just use the intensol and probably more accurate.

Thank you!!

[[Li...]]

Hi gray cloud.  I agree with you that the likelihood of getting accurate doses is higher when using the commercially manufactured Intensol.  You are not limited to using the measuring device supplied with the liquid.  For example, some members use it to measure the amount they wish to dilute, but after dilution, use other measuring devices to measure their doses (e.g. 10mL, 3mL, 1mL oral syringes).

[[gr...]]

Thank you Libertas!!