Ashton Manual Supplement: Meaningful?

[[am...]]

I read the new supplement to the manual:

 

http://www.benzo.org.uk/ashsupp11.htm

 

 

to be perfectly honest I don't find it offers anything but more worry.  I found no reassurance in it, in fact quite the opposite when looking at the speculation about long term/permanent effects.

 

What are your opinions on this?  It seems that what has been said isn't based on much (if any) research.

[[Su...]]

I just read it. Maybe not the best thing to read if you are really in the thick of things. I hope people don't read it and quickly assume that they will be permanently damaged.

 

Couple of things stood out to me....reinstating is not a guarantee that the withdrawal sxs will stop. That stabilizing can be more allusive if not impossible (which in my case proved true) as previously thought.

 

 

[Guest [Si...]]

I have read this before, in fact I have read the entire manual many times.. especially deciding my c/o to Valium.

 

To answer your question, I find it adds worry.

 

Permanent brain damage?

 

Structural damage. Many long-term benzodiazepine users who have stopped taking the drugs complain of a variety of seemingly irreversible psychological and/or physical symptoms which they attribute to permanent brain damage caused by the drugs. However, the question of whether benzodiazepines cause brain damage is still unsolved. In 1982 Professor Malcolm Lader and colleagues reported the results of a small study using CAT (computerised axial tomography) brain scans in 14 long-term benzodiazepines users compared with control subjects. Two of the benzodiazepine users had definite cortical brain atrophy and there was a borderline abnormality in five others; the rest were normal. In a 1984 study by Professor Lader involving 20 patients, the results were again suggestive but there was no relationship between CAT scan appearances and the duration of benzodiazepine therapy. The study concluded "The clinical significance of the findings is unclear." Subsequent CAT scan studies in 1987, 1993, and 2000 failed to find any consistent abnormalities in long-term benzodiazepine users, and concluded that benzodiazepines do not cause structural brain damage, e.g death of neurones, brain shrinkage or atrophy etc. A later more accurate development in brain scanning, MRI (magnetic resonance imaging), does not appear to have been systematically studied in benzodiazepine users. However MRI, like CAT, only shows structural changes and it is unlikely that the use of this technique would clarify the picture; many still symptomatic long-term ex-benzodiazepine users have had normal MRIs.

 

Functional damage. It is more likely that any long-term brain changes caused by benzodiazepines are functional rather than structural. In order to show such changes it would be necessary to examine abnormalities of brain activity in long-term benzodiazepine users. Techniques for such studies are available: fMRI (functional MRI) measures regional blood flow; PET (positron emission tomography) and SPECT (single photon emission tomography) measure neurotransmitter and receptor activity; QEEG (quantitative electroencephalography) and MEG (magnetoencephalography) measure regional electrical activity. None of these techniques has been utilised in controlled studies of long-term benzodiazepine users. Cognitive performance could indicate impairments in certain brain areas, but no studies have extended for more than six months. Finally post-mortem studies could show abnormalities in brain receptors, and animal studies could show changes in neuronal gene expression. None of these studies has been undertaken. Nor have there been any studies examining abnormalities in other tissues or organs in long-term benzodiazepine users.

 

A controlled study of long-term benzodiazepine users using brain function techniques would have to be carefully designed and would involve a large number of age and sex matched subjects, probably over 100 in both control and user groups. In the benzodiazepine group it would have to take into account dose, type of benzodiazepine, duration of use, psychiatric history, symptoms, use of alcohol and other drugs, and a number of other factors. Such a study would be expensive and funding would be difficult to obtain. Drug companies would be unlikely to offer support, and to date 'independent' bodies such as the Medical Research Council, the Wellcome Foundation and the Department of Health have shown little interest. Thus the question of whether benzodiazepines cause brain or other organ damage remains unanswered.

 

I do find it worrisome..

I am better at reading charts, and came across a chart once somewhere, and only 2 or 3 people had damage.. or issues thereafter becoming Benzo free.

The chart was reassuring we heal, it had the months &c. The time, this and that sx statistically was supposed to go away.. so on.. but it's nonlinear, hard to say.. it was based on so many people.

 

I don't know, to me Ashton's work is very helpful and she seems to know what she's talking about. I stay away from reading the parts that worry me.

 

IMO I think we all heal, but when &c. everyone is so different.. hard to say.

 

My thoughts aren't much, as I'm no "Benzologist" I call it   But I think we heal, and go on.. as millions have..

 

S#

[[...]]

"The advice given to prescribed benzodiazepine users (and their doctors) in the 'Ashton Manual' remains relevant today and requires little updating."

 

I read it and  agree with you , amano. After reading the above sentence taken from the supplement,  I question why was a  new supplement to the manual even necessary.

[[Pa...]]

I loved what it said about up-dosing and reinstatement, it reaffirms what I believe to be true.

[[Su...]]

I loved what it said about up-dosing and reinstatement, it reaffirms what I believe to be true.

 

Me too! After my 10 week rapid taper off 4 mg of K-pin, I was sick as a dog for 2 weeks, had a seizure and was reinstated on Ativan. I took it in the hospital for 2 nights and then as soon as I got home started tapering off of it. All it did was prolong the inevitable. I wish now I would have had my wits about me to refuse it. Oh well, hind-sight is 20/20 right? 

[Guest [Si...]]

I loved what it said about up-dosing and reinstatement, it reaffirms what I believe to be true.

 

With me, in Dec. of '09 I did the c/o to V from K with no problem, but then in Jan. of '10.. I c/o to Klonopin for a short stent, at 3mg.. I did up dose, well if you go by the equiv. 1:20 ratio, 'cause I was at 45mg of V, then just c/o to 3mg of K which would be 60mg of Valium. I c/o to Valium more gradually after I stabilized back on the K, and I did this Ashton method, it worked.. so, why is that? I mean after c/o once.. if you look at my progress log, at the beginning.. it shows this.

 

Maybe no one can answer, but I did reinstate on the Klonopin once from Valium, and yeah it did lift a lot of sx's, but then I started to get tolerance again, and c/o and now I'm.. well, where I am in mg of Valium.. hard to answer, isn't it? Because we all differ. The Valium quickly threw an umbrella over the tolerance, as I cut down in mg.

 

I have known people to come off a Benzo, and take it again so many years later, and it worked.. as they claimed. I'm no for Benzo's.. NO! But why did it work? There's so much to factor in.. it's impossible to predict what will or what will not happen, as for me, once off the Valium.. I'm not going to reinstate.. that's for sure! Nor will I ever touch a Benzo again!

 

S#

[[Su...]]

Very good points Sigma. I do think everyone is different.

 

I not only plan to NEVER take another benzo again in my life, but now after reading this I see there is no guarantee that even if I did it would work like it originally did. So there is NO way I'd take a gamble like that.

[Guest [Si...]]

So there is NO way I'd take a gamble like that.

 

That's what it is, probability and a gamble.. Ditto.. me either, no way I'm taking any Benzo after this.

 

S#

[[mi...]]

Does this post mean that reinstating back makes your situation worse. I had to reinstate because of the c/t was so bad I almost did die.  Was this a bad choice. How long can a person tolerate so much pain.  Can we.  I a not sure. The Ashton Manual talks about brain damage.  Oh gosh does this mean that is going to happen to us.  As it is my memory is not good right now because of the K.  Thank you. Mishi

 

PS. Has anyone had brain damage from the benzo

[Guest [Si...]]

PS. Has anyone had brain damage from the benzo

 

Mishi, I worry about the same.

Listen, I have asked a lot of people who have been off the Benzo for a while, do they have any Brain Damage?

They say "No"... I feel better than ever, really.

So, I'm listening to that, try not to worry about this during w/d. I know it's hard not too, but we'll get there.

 

S#

 

 

[[tr...]]

I loved what it said about up-dosing and reinstatement, it reaffirms what I believe to be true.

 

Me, too.  The question of reinstating and up-dosing comes around all the time, the Ashton supplement should help with those answers.