Overwhelmed Right Now - New 1.5mg Ativan Taper Help Needed plus misc questions

[[Ap...]]

Can someone link me to the page on Ashton's site where it shows the chart of how much exact quantity of pills to take at each cut. The chart where you look at the row for where you are currently at for quantity of pills and then it shows how much each reduction would be as a percentage. My brain isn't functioning very well right now and its giving me anxiety by not being able to find it on her website. Seriously annoying...even the smallest stuff like this can set me off.

 

I've been a bit quiet for a few days here as I was hoping to have positive news to report the next time but right now I'm in a bit of an uneasy patch. Has been for 3 days or so. I think that last cut from .75>.50mg (33% drop) was just to big. Not at the point of debating whether to go back up or not but still holding out and hopefully this passes soon. I definitely need to slow down a bit. I went from 1.5>.50 in 3 weeks.

[[Pa...]]

It sounds like you're getting the message your body is sending you and in looking at your reduction from 1.5 to .50 in 3 weeks, I'm not surprised.  You know, most members come here when they feel lousy asking for support, this is what we do here so please, if you need help ask for it, okay?

 

Remember that tapering is to help us remain functional as we reduce, getting to the end quicker only increases our pain on the way down, it won't help you heal any faster once the drug is out of your body. 

 

I'm not finding the information you're looking for in the Ashton manual, I'm not aware of a page which lists a percentage.  Would this calculator help you figure it out?  Let us know what you need it for and maybe we can find you another resource.

 

https://www.calculatorsoup.com/calculators/algebra/percent-change-calculator.php

 

 

[[be...]]

I don’t have a link to the page, but if you go to the 3mg Lorazepam taper schedule in the Ashton Manual, you can see the reductions she advises there. Since you aren’t crossing over, just convert the Valium back to Lorazepam and start at the bottom (the lower doses). She advises 5-10% reductions off the current dose (not starting dose) every 1-2 weeks. It means the milligrams of reduction get smaller as you go...which can make this take a bit longer than we want it to, but keeps you functional in taper.

 

Do not be discouraged - you’ve got this!!

[[Ap...]]

I don’t have a link to the page, but if you go to the 3mg Lorazepam taper schedule in the Ashton Manual, you can see the reductions she advises there. Since you aren’t crossing over, just convert the Valium back to Lorazepam and start at the bottom (the lower doses). She advises 5-10% reductions off the current dose (not starting dose) every 1-2 weeks. It means the milligrams of reduction get smaller as you go...which can make this take a bit longer than we want it to, but keeps you functional in taper.

 

Do not be discouraged - you’ve got this!!

 

Thats a good call. I saw that page with all of the scenarios but none of them had a straight A taper so I just breezed past them. Thank you!

 

It sounds like you're getting the message your body is sending you and in looking at your reduction from 1.5 to .50 in 3 weeks, I'm not surprised.  You know, most members come here when they feel lousy asking for support, this is what we do here so please, if you need help ask for it, okay?

 

Remember that tapering is to help us remain functional as we reduce, getting to the end quicker only increases our pain on the way down, it won't help you heal any faster once the drug is out of your body. 

 

I'm not finding the information you're looking for in the Ashton manual, I'm not aware of a page which lists a percentage.  Would this calculator help you figure it out?  Let us know what you need it for and maybe we can find you another resource.

 

https://www.calculatorsoup.com/calculators/algebra/percent-change-calculator.php

 

Oh I know this is a place to post the bad news in order to get help. I was sort of using it has a coping mechanism in a weird way. Per the Ashton pill cut chart, i'm 99% sure I saw it on her site but I can't find it either. There were two different charts, one that had a listing of pill quantities and the associated quantity reductions for each week. For example, if you are currently taking 3 pills, you would find 3 on the chart and then work your way down. Additionally, there was a second, larger chart, that listed current pill quantity on the left, quantitiy reduction amount on the top and the data in the middle was the % change for each given combo of pill quantity and reduction amount. It was a really useful chart but I can't seem to find it anywhere.

[[Pa...]]

http://www.benzobuddies.org/benzodiazepine-withdrawal-methods/direct-taper/

[[Ap...]]

http://www.benzobuddies.org/benzodiazepine-withdrawal-methods/direct-taper/

 

YES!!!! You are my hero Pamster

 

 

[[Pa...]]

I'm glad this is what you were looking for, I don't think many of our members even look at the resources available on the home pages, there is a lot of good information there. 

[[Ap...]]

Just an update here. So learned my first from-personal-experience taper lesson. Don't get over confident and decide you can push it faster than 99% of people on this forum because you had a few good weeks at the beginning because it will catch up to you. I basically just ended a 5 day wave...ugh. That was too long. Started to get pretty sad/depressed near the end of that 5 days, acute sadness and loss of hope I would call it. Its so hard when you are in those waves to not think its going to last for a long time. Thats what got me down, just not knowing if the wave is going to be 3 days or 13. It wasn't has bad as the 2 month interdose withdrawal hell phase though so that was good

 

So to recap taper so far:

 

Week 1 -1.5mg>1.25 ativan (mild sxs)

Week 2 - 1.25>1 (mild sxs)

Week 3 1>.75 (mild sxs)

Week 4 .75>.5 (BANG hit a wall, high sxs)

 

The weird thing as that when the wave snapped is was really quick. I literally took a nice long shower around 3pm yesterday, then laid in bed for an hour or so after it to relax and when I got up I realized I had ZERO anxiety/heart pounding sxs. I was truly calm. It felt amazing and gave me so much hope. I then had the best sleep I've had in 3 months. Needless to say I woke up a pretty happy camper!

 

Today the sxs are up a little bit again but no where near that 5 day wave. Needless to say, I will be holding at .50mg until I feel stable. Original plan was to cut on Tuesday but thats not happening.

[[Pa...]]

I'm relieved to hear you're out of that nasty wave, yesterday you got a taste of what you're going to feel like when you recover from this and it's going to be wonderful!

 

Thank you for outlining your taper and how it's progressing, this information will help others learn from your efforts.

[[Ap...]]

Oh man I hope so Pamster. Many days like that would be alright with me

 

 

Also, here is my updated Ativan Dosage vs. Mood chart. Mood ranking is 1 best, 10 worst so the higher the mood red line goes the worse the day was. I'm not sure how much weight the mood ranking holds these days as its all relative at the time of rating so not sure if say a 4 two months ago was the same as a 4 today but it at least gives somewhat of a picture. You can see the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd taper symtpom days there...the mountains just kept getting bigger until this long last wave.

 

[[RS...]]

April:  Good idea holding for awhile.  There is no rush.  You are learning the pattern of windows and waves.  The key is to learn how to handle the waves and keep your faith that a new window will come.

[[Ap...]]

Feeling a bit of sadness today. Since that big cut mistake 8 days ago I have only had one decent day. Starting to get worried a bit here. The first 3 weeks worth of cuts were going very well. Minimal daily anxiety overall (other than 1-2 days each cut week). I felt like my body was truly healing. Now I'm back to all day everyday anxiety/dizzy. I'm getting worried, did I screw up my taper? I have been reading these stories on here of people getting caught up from going to fast and then they actually never stabilize and they have to start over. Is that me at this point or do I simply just need to let me CNS catch up?

 

Do I up dose back up to say .70 or so from my current .50? If no, how long should I be riding out this every day anxiety?

 

I've seen first hand that this is all about keeping the CNS somewhat relaxed so it can heal. I could see that happen immediately from when I went to daily doses all over the map to a stable taper. The change was very noticeable in my CNS. Now I'm back to having a CNS on edge simply because my cut was too big. I'm so frustrated with myself.

 

Any help would be appreciated here.

[[be...]]

You made the best decision you could with the information you had at the time. Don’t beat yourself up. Now you know, though, and you can help yourself better going forward. Do you notice any improvements at all as the hours/days pass? Has anything else changed in your life - eating, sleeping, new stress, etc? As much as none of us want to updose, do you get a sense that you can’t stabilize at this dose? I think waiting to 10-14 days may help, but I also could see updosing to the midpoint between the last dose and this one and seeing how you feel. What makes the most sense to you?

 

I hate that you’re suffering...I know that anxiety/agitation well. You’re going to be okay - nothing is messed up - you’re already one day closer to being off this medicine for good. Hang in there.

[[RS...]]

April:  I know you feel bad.  This is a painful process and even if you did everything perfectly, you would still experience some pain. 

 

Resist the urge to updose and try to stabilize where you are.  Give yourself a break and don’t plan any further cuts for now. 

 

Now that you have experienced some of these symptoms, you can see how difficult things can get after you jump and can no longer take benzos.  Use this time to learn how to cope with these symptoms. 

 

Then once you have stabilized, and you will, you can proceed with tapering and can plan your jump.

 

 

[[Ap...]]

You made the best decision you could with the information you had at the time. Don’t beat yourself up. Now you know, though, and you can help yourself better going forward. Do you notice any improvements at all as the hours/days pass? Has anything else changed in your life - eating, sleeping, new stress, etc? As much as none of us want to updose, do you get a sense that you can’t stabilize at this dose? I think waiting to 10-14 days may help, but I also could see updosing to the midpoint between the last dose and this one and seeing how you feel. What makes the most sense to you?

 

I hate that you’re suffering...I know that anxiety/agitation well. You’re going to be okay - nothing is messed up - you’re already one day closer to being off this medicine for good. Hang in there.

 

Thanks for the pep talk beauty

 

I truly have learned my lesson and now I want to just get on with the show already. Need to learn some more patience here with this. I'm not sure on the stabilize question, thats pretty much what I was trying to figure out from someone on here with my post. Is it typical to go 8 days of wave after a cut and not stablize yet? If yes, what is the rule of thumb when you officially give up on stabilizing (knowing everyone is different)? After 10 days do you alter plans? After 14?

 

Yeah my initial thought was upping to just a bit to see if I can stabilize....somewhere between current .5mg and last level of .75mg. I know Ashton is seriously against this but I have seen a decent amount of small updosing in buddies' signature and they were still successful. Nothing really has changed that I can think of. Sleep is alright at the moment, no new stressful events, eating has been slightly less volume because of the wave. The only thing I can think of right now is that for my first two cuts of the last three, my morning dose and/or evening dose was a bit heavier than the afternoon dose. So it looks like this:

 

First cut = 1 pill morning, 3/4 pill afternoon, 3/4 pill evening

Second  = 3/4 pill morning, 1/2 pill afternoon, 3/4 pill evening

Third    = 1/2 pill morning, 1/2 pill afternoon, 1/2 pill evening

Fourth  = 1/3 pill morning, 1/3 pill afternoon, 1/3 pill evening (this is current status)

 

So by this history my morning and night dosage went from 3/4's of a pill down to 1/3 of a pill over 2 weeks. Maybe a possible solution to not going to a full updose would be to get back to front loading in the morning a bit to get my day going. Get the day going well in hopes that that positive energy/feelings can carry me through my slightly smaller afternoon and evening dose.

 

My thought would be to drop down the afternoon dosage from 1/3 of a pill to 1/4 of a pill and then add that difference (.833) to the morning dose and roll with that for a while.

 

 

 

[[RS...]]

April:  Stabilization time is different for everyone.  As you know, I did a non-Ashton taper over many months.

 

I stepped into cuts gradually.  Hold dose, next day cut dose, etc.  Then after that I would try to go hold dose, then two days cut dose, hold dose, etc.  Then try for three days.  Keep going till down until you can do cut dose for a solid week, then stay at this for a couple weeks, then start cutting that dose.

 

I know this isn’t recommended by Ashton, but this method helped me psychologically in that I knew I could have a higher dose.  In the meantime, I learned to cope with the symptoms. 

 

By the time I got down to .25mg, I would go one day on, one day off, then I would try for two days off.  Like you, I got impatient and so I just said ok, I did three days off, let’s try for a week.  One week became two, and I implicitly made the jump.  Time was running out as I wanted to make sure I jumped in winter when my workload is lighter and the cold dark weather makes it easier to sleep.

 

Ultimately it’s up to you.  You have knowledge of Ashton (I did not) but of course Ashton isn’t the only way.

 

How has covid impacted you?  Is this a good time to taper down and jump, or should you just try to hold where you are and deal with the symptoms you currently have?  Are you able to work from home?  Can you handle the mental fog, the sleepless nights?

 

[[Ap...]]

April:  Stabilization time is different for everyone.  As you know, I did a non-Ashton taper over many months.

 

I stepped into cuts gradually.  Hold dose, next day cut dose, etc.  Then after that I would try to go hold dose, then two days cut dose, hold dose, etc.  Then try for three days.  Keep going till down until you can do cut dose for a solid week, then stay at this for a couple weeks, then start cutting that dose.

 

I know this isn’t recommended by Ashton, but this method helped me psychologically in that I knew I could have a higher dose.  In the meantime, I learned to cope with the symptoms. 

 

By the time I got down to .25mg, I would go one day on, one day off, then I would try for two days off.  Like you, I got impatient and so I just said ok, I did three days off, let’s try for a week.  One week became two, and I implicitly made the jump.  Time was running out as I wanted to make sure I jumped in winter when my workload is lighter and the cold dark weather makes it easier to sleep.

 

Ultimately it’s up to you.  You have knowledge of Ashton (I did not) but of course Ashton isn’t the only way.

 

How has covid impacted you?  Is this a good time to taper down and jump, or should you just try to hold where you are and deal with the symptoms you currently have?  Are you able to work from home?  Can you handle the mental fog, the sleepless nights?

 

Thanks for the detail on your process Rshack. You are totally right with the psychological warfare. If we feel bad about a decision or an upcoming cut, that alone literally makes the sxs worse so I love your attention to making it as easy psychologically as possible. I don't hear anyone talking about it on here but I really like the idea of instead of just completely going cold turkey after you jump, ease into exactly like you are stating. Essentially hold at your "jump dose", but start skipping days. So say for the first week or so, take it every other, then the second week every 3rd day, etc etc. I wonder why that isn't talked about more here as it would really ease the scariness of the final jump day. Does anyone think there would be any major consequences to this at the end? If not, that may be my ending game plan.

[[RS...]]

The consequence is inter dose withdrawal symptoms.  I only took my dose at night, but maybe you can take 1/2 in morning, 1/2 at night.

 

I had some symptoms during days when I did my cut dose, but it was nothing like what I experienced after I jumped.

 

Again, this is not a recommended method, but I made a successful jump, so it can work. 

[[Pa...]]

We typically discourage dosing every other day based on the guidelines suggested by Professor Ashton but tapers are unique to the individual so I'm always interested in knowing how people personalize their experience, especially if it works! 

[Guest [ba...]]

I understand the logic of skipping days at the end of a taper.  It's a low dose anyway, and probably not doing much.  Still, I have to agree with others that it's better to continue tapering down than to skip days.  It may be more a theoretical argument than practical one since the doses we're talking about are very low and probably have more psychological than therapeutic effect.

[[RS...]]

Yes, I fully admit it had more psychological benefits than physical benefits.  My Dr suggested it.  He said they had benzo training, but it obviously wasn’t based on Ashton.  That said, he told me to take my time and assured me I would not be cut off.  He was adamant about not stopping suddenly. 

 

I’m due for my physical in August so I will discuss with him the Ashton method.  I’m sure he will be open to it and he will be happy that I am off of Ativan and Ambien.

 

But I needed the psychological boost, so in that sense, this method worked for me.  I agree, those .25mg crumbs did little for me.  And that helped nudge me to jump.

[[Ap...]]

Update today. Been feeling much better the last couple days so decided to cut today since its been 14 days. Going to go from .50>.425 but going to take 3 days to get to it (.475>.45>.425) try and ease into it. This is a 15% cut so it will be my smallest cut % wise.

 

Honestly, the good days have never felt so good. Its amazing how much a string of bad days will make you appreciate the good days. I know it could and will change but trying to enjoy them while they are here.

[[Pa...]]

It feels good to feel good doesn't it?   

 

Interesting technique, easing into your cut, I'll be interested to see how it goes for you.  Members are always surprising me with their innovation and creativity, I hope it works for you. 

[[RS...]]

Thanks for the update April.  You can do it!

 

I’m glad to hear that you are enjoying the good days and appreciating them as opposed to worrying about when the symptoms will return.  This is a good habit to get into and will serve you well after you jump.

 

The good days feel even better once you are off of the benzos.  I recall one really good day as I was nearing two months off.  I actually felt joy, it was so good. 

 

Keep us updated on your progress.

[[tb...]]

You are really doing well with describing and detailing your journey.  My story is so very similar.  I also need the same advice on how to get off Ativan.  I just bought a mg scale so I’m hoping it will work when I start doing my cuts. I will be following your post because, like I said, my situation is similar.  I’m only on Ativan through.  Thank you!

 

 

tbnatural