Mesenchymal Stem Cells!

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I posted this article on another thread about 'kindling', which may be more accurately referred to as 'sensitization phenomena' or 'centralized sensitization'. In discussing with some other forum members, we think there may be a possibility that this post-benzo kindling or sensitization of our glutamate receptors (possibly gaba too) may be the primary cause of our long-standing withdrawal syndromes. The receptors are simply in a state of hyperexcitability and sensitization. They overreact to all types of stimuli (external, internal, chemical, etc.) and those overreaction manifest as our varied symptoms.

 

https://neuro.psychiatryonline.org/doi/full/10.1176/jnp.12.3.328

 

A lot of sources state this sensitization is permanent once it is 'kindled'. But we've been exploring new ways that might reverse that kindled state.

 

I'd like to share another potentially relevant one here.

This article discusses the use of Mesenchymal Stem Cells to reconstruct kindled receptors of the adenosine system. Yes - it is not our adenosine system that is in need of reconstructing. However, these are kindled brain receptors. If our glutamate/gaba receptors are indeed kindled, as the adenosine receptors in this paper are, it stands to reason that MSCs may 'reconstruct' other kindled receptors as well.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4353095/

 

Here's more.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22561409

 

'Mesenchymal stem cells protect CNS neurons against glutamate excitotoxicity by inhibiting glutamate receptor expression and function.'

 

'These results show that MSC mediate direct neuroprotection by reducing neuronal sensitivity to glutamate receptor ligands and altering gene expression, and suggest a link between the therapeutic effects of MSC and the activation of cell plasticity in the damaged CNS.'

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Very interesting stuff, Nov.  I'm going to take a deeper look at all of it once this semester ends.  There's definitely something there. 

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Are there doctors out there willing to give this type of treatment?

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Are there doctors out there willing to give this type of treatment?

 

Absolutely. All over the world. While the US has a few decent stem cells clinics, the FDA does not allow for the culturing of umbilical cord cells. And these provide the most powerful treatment.

But there are plenty of reputable clinics in various countries that do allow for such and are having tons of success on a myriad of ailments - a whole lot of which are nerve or brain related.

Check out the facebook group 'stem cells 101' if you have an fb account; lots of patient accounts and clinic reviews there.

Look up BioXcellerator in Columbia, Stem Cell Institute in Panama, Dreambody Clinic in Mexico, Blue Horizon in Jamaica, etc. Just some examples, but there are many more.

[[Ch...]]

I don’t have a Facebook account any longer,

 

Would you be able to ask where the closest clinic is to Scotland that provides this treatment.

 

I would absolutely try this.

[[Ma...]]

Are there doctors out there willing to give this type of treatment?

 

Absolutely. All over the world. While the US has a few decent stem cells clinics, the FDA does not allow for the culturing of umbilical cord cells. And these provide the most powerful treatment.

But there are plenty of reputable clinics in various countries that do allow for such and are having tons of success on a myriad of ailments - a whole lot of which are nerve or brain related.

Check out the facebook group 'stem cells 101' if you have an fb account; lots of patient accounts and clinic reviews there.

Look up BioXcellerator in Columbia, Stem Cell Institute in Panama, Dreambody Clinic in Mexico, Blue Horizon in Jamaica, etc. Just some examples, but there are many more.

 

Why does the FDA not allow it?

 

[Guest [Sk...]]

 

Why does the FDA not allow it?

 

https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consumer-updates/fda-warns-about-stem-cell-therapies

 

and the FDA view  on it  https://www.fda.gov/media/85776/download

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I wish something like CRISPR could become involved in this: In essence, CRISPR is a technique that allows scientists to make precision edits to any DNA, whether bacterial or human. Scientists discovered the technique when studying a bacteria's immune system, which they gave the acronym CRISPR. (It stands for "clustered regularly interspaced short palindromic repeats.")May 24, 2016

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I don’t have a Facebook account any longer,

 

Would you be able to ask where the closest clinic is to Scotland that provides this treatment.

 

I would absolutely try this.

 

I will be trying it soon too, Charlie. Seems to be the most promising thing available, imo.

Similarly to the US, culturing umbilical cord cells is not legal in the UK. But there are a few good ones across Europe. Em Cell in Kiev (there was a documentary on this one). Blue Horizons has a Slovakia Clinic. Swiss Medica has various European clinics. Though, I do see a lot of Europeans travel to the Mexico or Panama ones I mentioned, honestly. Those seem to be the best bet.

 

Why does the FDA not allow it?

 

Who the hell knows. Why does the FDA still let doctors poison people with benzos?

Not to be a conspiracy theorist, but if you ask me, it's because they're in bed with the pharmaceutical companies and no one can patent stem cells and cures aren't profitable for anyone. Recurrent, indefinite treatments and pills are. Or hell... how about 'medications' that F you up for life so you have to keep coming back for more and more of their medications and futile medical treatments?

 

Even disregarding my pessimistic theories of the stagnating, corrupt FDA - they do take notoriously long to approve things compared to other countries. That's factual. So, even if they are uncorrupt, treatments for stem cells would take decades to be approved. So it could just be that we are in that extended period of waiting and testing and long-winded bureaucracy that comes with FDA trials and red tape.

 

Plus, I think our religious country associates umbilical cord cells with abortion and embryonic cells (which were banned from being studied in the Bush days on religious grounds) even though umbilical cells are taken from live, healthy births. So that looming religious presence over everything surely doesn't help things, imo (just more of my conjecture though). You can do adult stem cells here, no problem (though they're not technically approved and the FDA issues warnings about them like what SkyBlue posted); it's just the umbilical extraction and culturing that is actually straight up illegal.

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Thanks for replying to me Nov3.

 

I imagine I would travel as close to home as possible unsure how I would be able to go the long distances to Mexico etc.

 

Hope your able to get yours done soon and document your results for all of us.

 

Has anyone ever tried it for this? Anecdotal account etc.

 

Hope we get somewhere guys, we can’t all do this forever.

 

Peace.

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Thanks for replying to me Nov3.

 

I imagine I would travel as close to home as possible unsure how I would be able to go the long distances to Mexico etc.

 

Hope your able to get yours done soon and document your results for all of us.

 

Has anyone ever tried it for this? Anecdotal account etc.

 

Hope we get somewhere guys, we can’t all do this forever.

 

Peace.

 

Absolutely, man!

 

There has been one benzo-related stem cell account that I am aware of.

Jocelyn Pederson who runs the Youtube channel 'Benzo Brains' has traveled to Mexico and had stem cell IVs.

She said that it is successfully healing her facial nerve pain which started with benzos.

She has also stated, and I quote, 'with stem cells, I feel healed' on one of her facebook comments inquiring about her benzo withdrawals.

 

A myriad of other success stories pertaining to nerve damage/pain, brain disorders/damage, dysautonomia, and other things that mirror our own issues, but Jocelyn is the first I've seen do it for explicit benzo damage.

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Nov3,

 

Had she done a video about it?

 

This is something that needs to be documented for everyone.

 

Wonder what her process was in getting approved to get the treatment etc.

 

Nothing has helped this damage so far and she has been getting benefits from this - that’s unreal!

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Nov3,

 

Had she done a video about it?

 

This is something that needs to be documented for everyone.

 

Wonder what her process was in getting approved to get the treatment etc.

 

Nothing has helped this damage so far and she has been getting benefits from this - that’s unreal!

 

I am not sure if she's done a video. I just follow her Facebook posts, as she has been documenting and detailing the adventure there.

 

For most clinics, you don't need to get any type of approval for treatment (though, there are some that are more selective on who they'll treat). The clinic I plan to go to is as simple as making a reservation and showing up to have it done. It's just a simple IV...and in my case, I am also getting them nebulized and breathing them in to ensure they pass the blood brain barrier!

 

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Nov, which clinic are you going to go to and what's the cost there?

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Nov,

 

Didn’t realise these types of treatments were so readily available.

 

I appreciated there were many types of  treatments but only a few clinics  that offered the mesynchamal stem cells.

 

Learned most of my information from this podcast to be fair.

 

https://youtu.be/OtL1fEEtLaA

 

Mel Gibson and Dr Neil Riordan on Joe Rogan

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I’ve been reading about Dr. Michael West, PHD.

 

He’s been on the cutting edge of cell biology, anti aging, and stem cells.

 

He leads the company called Age X. Their various stem cells are not currently available, but hopefully soon.

 

More info here - https://www.agexinc.com/company-overview-biotechnology-for-gerontology-tissue-regeneration/

 

 

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Nov, which clinic are you going to go to and what's the cost there?

 

I will be going to Dream Body Clinic in Mexico.

They do a 300 million IV for $8K... though, I am pretty skinny so may only need 200 million, which would knock the price down to about $6K I believe.

 

And they do nebulized treatments (inhale MSCs through a mask to ensure they cross the blood brain barrier) at 22 million for $750. I'll probably do 3 days of those too (3 x $750).

 

Nov,

 

Didn’t realise these types of treatments were so readily available.

 

I appreciated there were many types of  treatments but only a few clinics  that offered the mesynchamal stem cells.

 

Learned most of my information from this podcast to be fair.

 

https://youtu.be/OtL1fEEtLaA

 

Mel Gibson and Dr Neil Riordan on Joe Rogan

 

Yeahman! Just gotta travel a bit.

I've seen that Joe Rogan episode! Dr. Neil Riordan runs the Stem Cell Institute in Panama that I've mentioned here a few times. They are top notch, one of the best clinics out there! They are a bit pricey though and one of the aforementioned clinics that are more selective about the patients they treat.

But they exclusively use umbilical cord mesenchymal stem cells. Which is what I am advocating for and what the other clinics I've mentioned offer as well!

 

I’ve been reading about Dr. Michael West, PHD.

 

He’s been on the cutting edge of cell biology, anti aging, and stem cells.

 

He leads the company called Age X. Their various stem cells are not currently available, but hopefully soon.

 

More info here - https://www.agexinc.com/company-overview-biotechnology-for-gerontology-tissue-regeneration/

 

 

Interesting, Power!

Thanks! Hope you're doing alright, man!

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Is there any analysis that shows that these treatments help with symptoms of dementia?

 

That's my main problem, my physical body is relatively fine but all of my cognitive skills have been damaged beyond belief since benzo withdrawal (and while I was on the benzo, too, no doubt).

 

 

 

 

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Is there any analysis that shows that these treatments help with symptoms of dementia?

 

That's my main problem, my physical body is relatively fine but all of my cognitive skills have been damaged beyond belief since benzo withdrawal (and while I was on the benzo, too, no doubt).

 

I don't have dementia so I've not personally explored it in depth. I have seen a few accounts or claims that it does in passing, but I have not done enough research or read enough studies on the matter to give you a confident answer. I have done a lot of reading on various other brain related or similar issues though, and those results seem incredible... Alzheimers, general brain frog and mental clarity, etc.  So, I would definitely encourage you to look more into it!! I certainly think there's potential it could help.

[[Ta...]]

Is there any analysis that shows that these treatments help with symptoms of dementia?

 

That's my main problem, my physical body is relatively fine but all of my cognitive skills have been damaged beyond belief since benzo withdrawal (and while I was on the benzo, too, no doubt).

 

I don't have dementia so I've not personally explored it in depth. I have seen a few accounts or claims that it does in passing, but I have not done enough research or read enough studies on the matter to give you a confident answer. I have done a lot of reading on various other brain related or similar issues though, and those results seem incredible... Alzheimers, general brain frog and mental clarity, etc.  So, I would definitely encourage you to look more into it!! I certainly think there's potential it could help.

 

Thanks, Nov 3. I just watched the Joe Rogan/Mel Gibson/Dr. Neil Riordan snippet on YouTube and Mel mentioned that it even improved his father's cognition among a host of other ailments. It is definitely worth looking into!

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So Nov, I'm looking at their site and I'm seeing stem cell treatments for things like autism, celiac's disease, hep C etc.  I gotta be honest with you.  It feels a little snake oily.  I don't doubt that stem cell therapies works for some ailments but the way this clinic packages them up feels a little sketchy. 

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So Nov, I'm looking at their site and I'm seeing stem cell treatments for things like autism, celiac's disease, hep C etc.  I gotta be honest with you.  It feels a little snake oily.  I don't doubt that stem cell therapies works for some ailments but the way this clinic packages them up feels a little sketchy.

 

Hey, took!

 

You think?? I kinda liked their website layout.  A few of the other clinics don't post clear prices or provide a list of ailments that they feel they can confidently address. They are way more vague. The guy that owns Dreambody has stated that he only lists an ailment on the site after they have enough patients who show clear improvements for that ailment. I remember they didn't have 'fibromyalgia' listed for a long time after I first started following them because, despite a few patients showing clear benefits, they didn't feel they had enough evidence at the time to advertise it.

 

Regardless of website presentation though, that's never been something that got me interested in the clinic. I think that results speak way louder than a website could. As I've mentioned, I partake in a stem cell facebook group with over 16 thousand members (Stem Cells 101: Education, Treatment, and Breakthroughs). It's full of individual, independent people having discussions and debates about stem cells, treatments, clinics, and the science behind it all. Several doctors on there too. Dreambody is probably the most popular clinic in the group right now. And that is because there are countless members with independent experiences that have gone to Dreambody and came back to report positive experiences and benefits. Real people with real results; no clinic affiliations.

 

Furthermore, Dreambody's actual wharton's jelly-derived mesenchymal stem cells are supplied by a very reputable source - Cryovida. Cryovida, on top of having a great reputation, recently added Dr. Arnold Caplan (the literal 'Father of Mesenchymal Stem Cells') to their scientific advisory board. I do not think he would risk his reputation and name on some fake, snake oil clinic with fake stem cells. Dreambody is located in the same space as Cryovida, so they get the MSCs from them fresh the actual day of treatment. Which means they don't have to freeze them or store them or anything - saving costs and getting the freshest cells for treatment.

 

I've also talked to the Dreambody clinic founder (who is an American dude that is related by marriage to the founder of Cryovida and the Doctor that works at Dreambody) several times in trying to determine if the treatment would help. He has always been upfront and honest about what the cells are an aren't capable of. Telling me flat-out about limitations and certain things he wouldn't recommend treatment for. Initially, in early talks, he even discouraged me from getting the treatment due to some of our discussions regarding my health.

 

All of these things considered, 'snake oil' is not at all a concern of mine. Cryovida has real MSCs and real MSCs have real data. The only concern I have is whether or not these real stem cells from this recognized, reputable clinic with a track record of success, will actually address the mysterious issues with my broken ass nervous system.

 

That said, Don't get it twisted - I am no advocate for this clinic. Not until I get my own results. I am just stating facts and discussing my own opinion and observations of the clinic and situation. If you do not feel they seem legit based on your own research, by all means listen to your own intuition!! There are other clinics out there that may be more appealing, but with all things considered here - affordability, patient results and accounts, clinic team members and stem cell source, etc... I am not personally sketched out. 

 

But if a different clinic looks more promising to you, please do share and detail why!!... I've still got a bit of time ahead of me before I have enough funds to take the leap so still eager to learn as much as I can.

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So Nov, I'm looking at their site and I'm seeing stem cell treatments for things like autism, celiac's disease, hep C etc.  I gotta be honest with you.  It feels a little snake oily.  I don't doubt that stem cell therapies works for some ailments but the way this clinic packages them up feels a little sketchy.

 

Continued............

 

Here's a publication regarding the use of MSCs to 'Inhibit Hepatitis C Virus Infection'.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27496568

 

Celiac disease is autoimmune. Autoimmunities are some of the most successfully treated by MSCs, as the MSCs secrete immunomodulatory factors, which is widely accepted and studied. I would say Celiac patients would definitely benefit.

https://www.cellmedicine.com/stem-cell-therapy-for-autoimmune-diseases/

 

There are studies on MSCs for autism too. While I have personally seen some parents in the aforementioned group discuss the benefits their autistic children have received, I cannot speak in detail on exactly why as it seems there's still some dispute as to exactly what would need to be addressed to tackle it. This article suggests the underlying pathology could be rooted in immune system dysregulation and inflammation, which again, are like the two things that MSCs do best.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6397804/

 

...I'd be willing to bet you could find an article (or several) making note of the potential of MSCs for each one of the conditions listed on their website. It's not a sure thing as there are many factors to everyone's ailments and bodies, and I am certain that Dreambody or whoever else would tell you that. But I think there is at least some potential application for everything listed. Even if they aren't guaranteed to completely reverse or cure everything listed (which I don't believe is the intent in listing them on the site), the mechanisms and biological healing signals they send out, the immune and inflammatory issues they target, etc. ensures that MSCs will prove to be at least beneficial to a vast variety of ailments.

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I mean the way I see it Nov, there's never going to be a study done to see if these stem cells will help benzo withdrawal.  So it really doesn't matter what they are marketing the stem cells for.  Basically, we have no understanding of the mechanism of withdrawal yet and are hoping for a hail mary type of outcome from it.  If it works, it's the best decision you could have made as it will likely reduce your suffering by years.  If it doesn't, you are out a significant amount of money and at least can check that off the list of things that might help.  It'll be one more thing that we can add to the pile of experiments.

 

The most important thing, though, is to be absolutely certain that you don't come away worse from it.  That it doesn't harm you in any way.  Because it's one thing to lose some money.  It's quite another to become further ill especially when we are already feeling like hell. 

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I mean the way I see it Nov, there's never going to be a study done to see if these stem cells will help benzo withdrawal.  So it really doesn't matter what they are marketing the stem cells for.  Basically, we have no understanding of the mechanism of withdrawal yet and are hoping for a hail mary type of outcome from it.  If it works, it's the best decision you could have made as it will likely reduce your suffering by years.  If it doesn't, you are out a significant amount of money and at least can check that off the list of things that might help.  It'll be one more thing that we can add to the pile of experiments.

 

The most important thing, though, is to be absolutely certain that you don't come away worse from it.  That it doesn't harm you in any way.  Because it's one thing to lose some money.  It's quite another to become further ill especially when we are already feeling like hell.

 

That's for sure.

That is my worst fear too. After my setback, I am genuinely terrified of doing anything.

But what might be even scarier is living a life of such constant terror, fragility, limitations, and suffering. Knowing that I can return to the withdrawal state at any time, constantly feeling like my body is broken, it's a pretty lame way to exist. I want to be me again, I want to travel, I want wake up and not hate my existence.

 

Again though, I too am trepidatious in moving forward with this.

My trepidation has nothing to do with fear of snake oil or fear that these might be something else other than stem cells though. Based on all of things I've mentioned, I think that can be confidently put to rest... I just worry how my body will respond to stem cells. If exercise can nearly put me in a coffin, if small supplements I take can mess me up so bad, anything has potential to set me back...

 

But maybe there is some method to the madness. Things that are known to excite the nervous system cause problems to my already excited nervous system. Things that affect the damaged glutamate/gaba system flare everything up. Maybe it's that simple.

 

So I look at the research I've posted here.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4353095/

'reconstruction of kindled brain receptors'

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22561409

'Mesenchymal stem cells protect CNS neurons against glutamate excitotoxicity by inhibiting glutamate receptor expression and function.'

'These results show that MSC mediate direct neuroprotection by reducing neuronal sensitivity to glutamate receptor ligands and altering gene expression, and suggest a link between the therapeutic effects of MSC and the activation of cell plasticity in the damaged CNS.'

 

These are not studies on benzo withdrawal specifically, but they are, imo, studies that relate to the pathophysiology that is likely afflicting us. 'Kindled receptors', 'neuronal sensitivity to glutamate receptor glands' 'altered gene expression' 'excitotoxicity', etc.

 

Then, I look at the experiences of others.

Benzo survivor Jocelyn Pederson's stem cell treatments did not make her worse - they made her way better.

I look at people with conditions that have symptoms that mirror my own. Fibromyalgia, dysautonomia, etc. I look at people who benefit from serious brain and nervous system issues. I see real accounts from real people with all of these things. I do not see people who walk away worse. They walk away with nervous systems that are more functional; more at ease; more calm.

 

It's true, there is mystery with us. There always is.

There is uncertainty and fear for me going into this. And I am, admittedly, hesitant... But I am just trying to talk myself through the evident pros and cons here; the likely outcomes based on the accounts and studies we have that potentially relate to our situations. This is not a blind leap into something for the sake of it. There is evidence, there is relation to us, there is reason to suggest this could be helpful, if not massively restorative, for people in our shoes.

 

The evidence, data, and potential implications of what we DO know here, will inevitably make this something that I keep running back to. The potential, imo, is too great. The treatment is accessible and easy in the present tense. I don't see anything out there, in the present, with the amount of power, potential, and relative affordability that this has. So, despite my obvious fears that have resulted from everything I've been through and the way we react things........ this keeps tugging at me.

 

There is no obvious reason to take this off the radar for me. Yes, there is a risk with everything we do as benzo survivors, but this inherent risk, based on my current calculations and observations (which I am open to adjust given appropriate data or rebuttals) is outweighed by the potential for benefits. Plus - the clinic would surely give us a small trial run given our fear and sensitivity. I.e. Instead of jumping in and getting 300 million stem cells straight away... Why not start with a few thousand? Then see how our bodies respond.

 

Remember - Mesenchymal Stem Cells are already natural things that are present within all of us. It's just, younger humans have WAYYY more. And so they heal WAYYY faster. These are cells that we already have. We are just restoring them to levels that we haven't had since infancy or childhood. That alone prompts me to believe that the risk for adverse effects is quite minor... There is nothing logical I can see (at the moment) to suggest otherwise. But again, I am open to alter my perception here with sufficiently convincing reasoning.