Taper Plan Reassessment Help

[[ro...]]

I have a 15-year history of taking Klonopin and/or Valium with multiple cold-turkeys and am currently on my second, kindled taper which started in January 2016. I am about 7 mgs of Diazepam away from being Benzo free…for good. I am not well and am scared.

 

I’m looking for perspectives on my micro-taper, specifically the pace for this home stretch. While I’m obviously ready to reach the finish line, my objective is to complete this micro-taper at a rate that maximizes the likelihood of complete healing, which right now seems near impossible.

 

I’m suffering more and more each day (and have been debilitated for years) and am wondering if I should stick with a 1mg per month taper rate or start tapering by a percentage of the prior month, as a more gentle approach. My conundrum is that a "percentage of prior month" method may help maximize my chance for full recovery, however even a 10% rate would take another 750 days (per the benzo.alwaysdata.net calculator).

 

Some context (for anyone kind enough to try to help me):

 

My most recent taper began in January 2016. After being benzo free for 2 years, I reinstated that month at 1.5mg of Klonopin and tapered then up-dosed twice. Beginning early 2017, I crossed over from 2mg Klonopin to 40mg Valium and did a rapid taper of 10mg in one month. By September that year (2017), I was at 20mg of Valium and held until April 2018. Since then, I have been doing a fixed-rate taper, shooting for 1mg per month. I am currently taking 6.8mg of Valium per day, as a mixture of liquid compound (almond based) and pills.

 

History:

 

2004 (age 22): began taking 3mg Klonopin which I weaned to 1 mg by 2008

 

2013: was advised to cold turkey completely. I did so but one month later re-instated to 1mg. Tapered over 7 months so that I was benzo free by end of 2013 but suffered BWS without knowing it for the next 2 years.

 

January 2016: after being benzo free for 2 years, I reinstated at 1.5mg. After tapering for 3 months to 1mg, I up-dosed back to 1.5mg in March. I tapered again for 3 months to 1mg and then up-dosed to 2mg.

 

August 2017: I crossed over from 2mg Klonopin to 40mg Valium (diazepam) and did a rapid taper of 10mg in one month to 30mg. By September that year, I was at 20mg.

 

October 2017: held dosage per doctor’s orders until April 2018

 

April 2018: Ended hold and re-started tapering 18mg Valium at rate of 1 mg / month

 

June 21, 2019: 6.8mg Valium

 

Thanks to my Sister, betterthanbeforeBII, for helping me write this!

[[bu...]]

The limiting factor in any taper is the percentage cut rate.  That does NOT mean you have to adjust the cut rate afte each reduction, but it does mean you will probably need to periodically adjust the cut rate over the course of the taper.

 

Start at rate that you know will work.  With a daily microtaper, you will NOT get slammed with sxs if you cut to fast.  Any sxs will emerge slowly, and you have time to make adjustments then.

[[ro...]]

Thanks for the reply, Builder. Unfortunately, I am already very bad and have been for a long time. I'm severely below weight, my cognition tests all show significant damage, and I've been debilitated by symptoms for years. My family, friends, and doctors really don't know how much more my body can take at this point. It's horrific.

 

I've spent time on Facebook groups but had to leave because they are too triggering, but I haven't spent time on here because I've been too debilitated to do so. This is why I'm reaching out for help in this final hour.

 

Given that I am where I am, I'd like to know what the general consensus would be for someone like me: someone who's not sleeping, can't eat, looks like death, can't think (it took me 2 weeks to write this post), shakes, etc. Updosing doesn't seem to work for me anymore (see history in original post for more context).

 

I'm so scared about what the next 6.8 mgs hold in store for me because of how bad I've had it all the way down and during my previous tapers. Since I can't use the emergence of symptoms as a gauge, what would you recommend? Also, what would you say my prognosis is given the fact that I've been dealing with this for so long? Thank you so much for your help

[[bu...]]

If your sxs are actually the result of benzo withdrawal, you need to go back to a dose where they were minimum or manageable.  Then once stabilized, restart a sensible, planned taper.

[[Be...]]

I have a 15-year history of taking Klonopin and/or Valium with multiple cold-turkeys and am currently on my second, kindled taper which started in January 2016. I am about 7 mgs of Diazepam away from being Benzo free…for good. I am not well and am scared.

 

I’m looking for perspectives on my micro-taper, specifically the pace for this home stretch. While I’m obviously ready to reach the finish line, my objective is to complete this micro-taper at a rate that maximizes the likelihood of complete healing, which right now seems near impossible.

 

I’m suffering more and more each day (and have been debilitated for years) and am wondering if I should stick with a 1mg per month taper rate or start tapering by a percentage of the prior month, as a more gentle approach. My conundrum is that a "percentage of prior month" method may help maximize my chance for full recovery, however even a 10% rate would take another 750 days (per the benzo.alwaysdata.net calculator).

 

Some context (for anyone kind enough to try to help me):

 

My most recent taper began in January 2016. After being benzo free for 2 years, I reinstated that month at 1.5mg of Klonopin and tapered then up-dosed twice. Beginning early 2017, I crossed over from 2mg Klonopin to 40mg Valium and did a rapid taper of 10mg in one month. By September that year (2017), I was at 20mg of Valium and held until April 2018. Since then, I have been doing a fixed-rate taper, shooting for 1mg per month. I am currently taking 6.8mg of Valium per day, as a mixture of liquid compound (almond based) and pills.

 

History:

 

2004 (age 22): began taking 3mg Klonopin which I weaned to 1 mg by 2008

 

2013: was advised to cold turkey completely. I did so but one month later re-instated to 1mg. Tapered over 7 months so that I was benzo free by end of 2013 but suffered BWS without knowing it for the next 2 years.

 

January 2016: after being benzo free for 2 years, I reinstated at 1.5mg. After tapering for 3 months to 1mg, I up-dosed back to 1.5mg in March. I tapered again for 3 months to 1mg and then up-dosed to 2mg.

 

August 2017: I crossed over from 2mg Klonopin to 40mg Valium (diazepam) and did a rapid taper of 10mg in one month to 30mg. By September that year, I was at 20mg.

 

October 2017: held dosage per doctor’s orders until April 2018

 

April 2018: Ended hold and re-started tapering 18mg Valium at rate of 1 mg / month

 

June 21, 2019: 6.8mg Valium

 

Thanks to my Sister, betterthanbeforeBII, for helping me write this!

 

Hello rocketman0704-

 

Sorry to hear that you are having such a difficult time. Some of us are super sensitive and struggle regardless or taper rate, updosing, holding etc. Because updosing and holding has not worked for you in the past, I would not consider this as an option. If I were in your shoes I would stick with the reduction rate of 1mg per month since this rate got you down this far and be off the benzo in 7 months. You will eventually heal... when, who knows, but you will...try not be discouraged, keep yourself distracted and stay the course 

[[Be...]]

Hey rocketman0704,

 

If your sxs are actually the result of benzo withdrawal, you need to go back to a dose where they were minimum or manageable.  Then once stabilized, restart a sensible, planned taper.

 

Builder is absolutely right here. Maybe updosing wouldn't hurt to try. THEN you stabilize well, and I mean well. 2 week mnimum, so you can be functional. And, who knows, you might be able to taper by 10 % with no problems afterwards.

 

Just out of curiosity (and health relevancy), how old are you? Are you currently taking any other medication beside diazepam? Also, have you thought about running some blood tests. It could be a hormonal problem. Sometimes we forget other illnesses can attack us because we attribute everything to benzo w/d. It could be, but it wouldn't hurt to explore other options

 

As a last resort, TIME and PATIENCE heals everything 

[[ro...]]

Hey rocketman0704,

 

If your sxs are actually the result of benzo withdrawal, you need to go back to a dose where they were minimum or manageable.  Then once stabilized, restart a sensible, planned taper.

 

Builder is absolutely right here. Maybe updosing wouldn't hurt to try. THEN you stabilize well, and I mean well. 2 week mnimum, so you can be functional. And, who knows, you might be able to taper by 10 % with no problems afterwards.

 

Just out of curiosity (and health relevancy), how old are you? Are you currently taking any other medication beside diazepam? Also, have you thought about running some blood tests. It could be a hormonal problem. Sometimes we forget other illnesses can attack us because we attribute everything to benzo w/d. It could be, but it wouldn't hurt to explore other options

 

As a last resort, TIME and PATIENCE heals everything 

 

Thanks for the advice. Multiple updoses over the years have never quite gotten me to where I was, and then I just hit the same exact symptoms and at the same intensity when I got back down to the original  dosage from which I updosed. I've done this enough times that I've begrudgingly accepted I am one of those people that updosing doesn't work for. This is terrifying as my first taper was simple and I hardly felt anything tunnel I got low. And that's another reason I'm so scared. My symptom progression is mirroring that of my previous taper but at an incredibly increased intensity. That was a fixed rate taper.

 

I'm 37 and check out health-wise for everything else -- hormones, adrenals, vitamins, blood, etc. Neurological (cognition, memory, emotional, sleep) and physical degradation are severe and now prolonged. Staying on this drug longer is hard to fathom as I've been tapering for years now. I'm so bad that I have a slew of doctors actually sending me to tons of specialists to do testing. I do have a new hernia, but that's not surprising due to the amount of muscle atrophy I'm experiencing. 

 

Hello rocketman0704-

 

Sorry to hear that you are having such a difficult time. Some of us are super sensitive and struggle regardless or taper rate, updosing, holding etc. Because updosing and holding has not worked for you in the past, I would not consider this as an option. If I were in your shoes I would stick with the reduction rate of 1mg per month since this rate got you down this far and be off the benzo in 7 months. You will eventually heal... when, who knows, but you will...try not be discouraged, keep yourself distracted and stay the course 

 

Thank you so much Bella Amis. I think I've accepted that I'm one of those people you described. I'm so scared. It scares me that I even fall into a category that many other benzo taperers do not seem to grasp. But I get it, I wouldn't have really been able to comprehend this during my first taper, had I known that was the cause of my symptoms at the time.

 

But I'll be honest with you, two friends that were the first benzo injured people I met and have been tapering for a comparable amount of time, at a comparable rate, and are at a comparable dosage have both recently hit **alarming** turbulence. know their symptoms aren't mine, but I'm also degrading at a rate I don't know my body and brain can take. And like I said above, my symptoms are tracking with my previous taper, just at an incredibly exaggerated intensity, and that was a fixed-rate taper. I'm wondering or hoping that if Builder's theory of percentages holds, then maybe I can mitigate some damage by switching to the longer percentage micro taper that the taper calculator spit out? But I'm not sure what drawing out the taper even longer would do to someone in my position that has been tapering for so long. Do you have any experience with people like me hitting these problems? Thanks again for helping me out!

 

[[Be...]]

rocketman0704,

 

It sounds like quite a journey with benzos you've gone through. I reread your original post and I think the symptoms might've been caused by "kindling" because you did benzos on and off (and clonazepam - which is the most potent), then cold-turkeyed for some time, etc.

 

Builder's advice is probably the most reasonable under the present circumstances. If you say updosing doesn't work, then it doesn't. Stabilizing and finding your own pace of a very slow taper might just be what you need right now.

 

And your sister is great to support you  If she can read this to you (in case you already haven't), or you (when you're feeling better), I think it might encourage you with a more positive outlook: http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=66397.0 It's quite a long read, but trust me, going through all of it will make sense to you or to your sister/friends/family

 

Stay strong and keep us posted! 

[[Be...]]

Hey rocketman0704,

 

If your sxs are actually the result of benzo withdrawal, you need to go back to a dose where they were minimum or manageable.  Then once stabilized, restart a sensible, planned taper.

 

Builder is absolutely right here. Maybe updosing wouldn't hurt to try. THEN you stabilize well, and I mean well. 2 week mnimum, so you can be functional. And, who knows, you might be able to taper by 10 % with no problems afterwards.

 

Just out of curiosity (and health relevancy), how old are you? Are you currently taking any other medication beside diazepam? Also, have you thought about running some blood tests. It could be a hormonal problem. Sometimes we forget other illnesses can attack us because we attribute everything to benzo w/d. It could be, but it wouldn't hurt to explore other options

 

As a last resort, TIME and PATIENCE heals everything 

 

Thanks for the advice. Multiple updoses over the years have never quite gotten me to where I was, and then I just hit the same exact symptoms and at the same intensity when I got back down to the original  dosage from which I updosed. I've done this enough times that I've begrudgingly accepted I am one of those people that updosing doesn't work for. This is terrifying as my first taper was simple and I hardly felt anything tunnel I got low. And that's another reason I'm so scared. My symptom progression is mirroring that of my previous taper but at an incredibly increased intensity. That was a fixed rate taper.

 

I'm 37 and check out health-wise for everything else -- hormones, adrenals, vitamins, blood, etc. Neurological (cognition, memory, emotional, sleep) and physical degradation are severe and now prolonged. Staying on this drug longer is hard to fathom as I've been tapering for years now. I'm so bad that I have a slew of doctors actually sending me to tons of specialists to do testing. I do have a new hernia, but that's not surprising due to the amount of muscle atrophy I'm experiencing. 

 

Hello rocketman0704-

 

Sorry to hear that you are having such a difficult time. Some of us are super sensitive and struggle regardless or taper rate, updosing, holding etc. Because updosing and holding has not worked for you in the past, I would not consider this as an option. If I were in your shoes I would stick with the reduction rate of 1mg per month since this rate got you down this far and be off the benzo in 7 months. You will eventually heal... when, who knows, but you will...try not be discouraged, keep yourself distracted and stay the course 

 

Thank you so much Bella Amis. I think I've accepted that I'm one of those people you described. I'm so scared. It scares me that I even fall into a category that many other benzo taperers do not seem to grasp. But I get it, I wouldn't have really been able to comprehend this during my first taper, had I known that was the cause of my symptoms at the time.

 

But I'll be honest with you, two friends that were the first benzo injured people I met and have been tapering for a comparable amount of time, at a comparable rate, and are at a comparable dosage have both recently hit **alarming** turbulence. know their symptoms aren't mine, but I'm also degrading at a rate I don't know my body and brain can take. And like I said above, my symptoms are tracking with my previous taper, just at an incredibly exaggerated intensity, and that was a fixed-rate taper. I'm wondering or hoping that if Builder's theory of percentages holds, then maybe I can mitigate some damage by switching to the longer percentage micro taper that the taper calculator spit out? But I'm not sure what drawing out the taper even longer would do to someone in my position that has been tapering for so long. Do you have any experience with people like me hitting these problems? Thanks again for helping me out!

 

Hey rocketman0704-

 

I am one of these people who are/were extremely sensitive to benzo and over the years I have read hundreds of stories of others like you and I. I have been through hell and come out the other end pretty much fully functional now. I have no history of drug or alcohol abuse, I never took anti depressants on a regular basis. After extensive testing by my primary care doctor, it was found that I had  no other health issues that would have directly caused or contributed to these horrific symptoms I experienced while in withdrawal/ recovery. I can honestly say that I regret reinstating and doing a micro taper. It did not really help and I suffered horribly and still took a long time to heal. Unfortunately I took the advice of others on this forum who are not sensitive and are TOTALLY IGNORANT to how this drug can affect everyone differently. Some folks truly believe that if someone has symptoms after holding for 60 days that these symptoms must be caused by something other than benzo. This is simply NOT the case for everyone. It is not cookie cutter. We all process/ metabolize the benzo differently. So it is my opinion IF one is super sensitive and gets NO relief from holding or up dosing, they need to get off the poison as a rate that is tolerable for them and just be done with it.

 

I am now functioning better than I have in 25 years. I am so glad I got off the poison. My only regret is that  I micro tapered for a long time. Micro tapering did not work for me because of the sensitivity to benzo and ct/rapid taper. While I agree that micro tapering works well for many (especially for those who start out tapering this way) it is my opinion that sensitive folks who have cold turkey/rapid tapered will more than likely experience a extended recovery no matter what they do and it is pointless to micro taper for years on end. Read my story

 

rocketman0704, do what you feel will work best for you. What ever you decide, you WILL HEAL so hold on to this and move forward at a pace that is tolerable for you. I wish the very best for you...stay strong, you can and will with out a doubt get through this horror...

[[...]]

I’m one of the people *Rocketman* is talking about  :'(

 

Got down to 10 MGS from 20 and reinstated back to 20 bc I thought drinking on occasions was

My “problem” in hindsight I’m sure it’s was & quitting alcohol helped but when I reached 5.8 MGS

It all went south ( really bad ) up dosed back to 7 and it never really helped.

 

I’m reducing by .04 every 2 days and it’s pure hell

 

I guess I/ we are kindled and the only way out is through.

 

I guess some people have an easier time from reading *some* of the stories on this forum.

 

It’s just hard to imagine doing this for another year.

[[Co...]]

I am only have a few minutes; I'll read through more thoroughly when I return. But, for now, just a few thoughts about 'updosing'.

 

For those who are prone to developing dependency upon benzodiazepines, withdrawal symptoms are to be largely expected. Maybe it is possible to withdraw at such a slow rate that we might virtually guarantee to avoid all or most withdrawal symptoms, but if that means the withdrawal regimen lasts for very many years, this is counterproductive and impractical for the vast majority of us. Further, since dependency is a product of chronic exposure, we continue to be exposed for the duration of the (long) taper. So, it is always a balance between wishing to get off as soon as possible, but at a rate which is manageable for us and in our given situation.

 

Since, realistically, those who are already dependent should expect some withdrawal symptoms, reversing course and 'updosing' to a point where we no longer experience any withdrawal symptoms is a backwards step. It is only reasonable to expect some difficulties quitting if we are dependent. By reversing course to such a degree to where we no longer experience difficulties (often not possible anyway), we will only have to repeat the part of the taper we have just voided. In all normal circumstances, the much better action is to instead stabilise our dose until we feel able to continue with the next cut. Of course, if previous cuts have proved too difficult, going forward, make smaller cuts (use the liquid titration method if you like).

 

None of this is means that in an individual's specific circumstances they cannot reverse course. They might decide that it is not worth the cost in their ability to work, cope with stress, or manage their day-to-day affairs (this does not negate the very real potential advantages to quitting benzodiazepines). But, all our situations are different, and we make the best decision we can in our particular situation. But, BUT, if it is our present aim to get off benzodiazepines, attempting to go back to some imagined stable state is probably counterproductive - it will (significantly) delay our aim to be free of benzodiazepines.

 

One other caveat: if you have made a recent cut which is too great or is just plain unmanageable for whatever reason (life stresses, etc.), reversing that cut soon after the event is just a minor course correction - not really the same thing as 'updosing' as people seem to generally use the term.

[[bu...]]

 

 

Since, realistically, those who are already dependent should expect some withdrawal symptoms, reversing course and 'updosing' to a point where we no longer experience any withdrawal symptoms is a backwards step.

 

Yes, that's true.

 

But if you have made to large a cut, or cut too fast, and you are functionally impaired, or your sxs to too severe, then a "backward step" may well be the correct action.

 

The key to a successful taper, with minimal, manageable sxs is matching your taper rate to your body"s "recovery rate".  If your taper rate gets drastically out of sync with the  recovery rate, an updose is a simple solution to bringing things back into balance.

[[ro...]]

It's amazing what adrenaline will do during benzo withdrawal. My panicked writing was more succinct and communicative than it has been in a while. I have such trouble logging onto these message boards for various reasons, so although I have a lot to think about and still would like to respond, I wanted to thank everyone. I'm thinking carefully about each of your posts.

 

Colin, my curiosity is piqued regarding your post about different life situations requiring different courses of action. I'm very much wanting to maximize my quality of life for the long haul, whatever that means. However, I think I have fallen pray to the narrative circulating in the FB groups that there is only one way out. Now, I agree, these things are terrible and in most cases, everyone should withdraw from them yesterday. However, given my long, drawn out withdrawal, I just want some quality of life. Now, if that means I have to go through more hell to get there, fine. I hope I can make it. I don't know if I can. I've got everything else going for me but health. However, given the amount of people you see come through your site, do you meet people who are totally debilitated and haven't got any primary responsibilities except staying alive for whom coming off the drug *might* cause more damage than leaving it alone?

 

Again, sorry for the delay, I shake thinking about logging onto these boards for some reason. And I've been super grateful for all the responses. Everyone who does this absolutely rocks, and you guys deserve good human being awards. Determining a course of action this weekend so will either be back with an update or more questions .

[[be...]]

Thank you so much, everyone, for your thoughts and encouragement. Rocketman0704 is the best brother I could ask for, and I'm so hopeful the rest of this taper will be more manageable than he's expecting...and that he makes a FULL recovery. (He's a computer engineer and has an amazing brain that needs to be fully utilized!) We are very grateful for this group.

 

We decided he will taper at a rate of 10% per month until he hits 6mg (which will be next month), then try to stick to a fixed .6mg drop per month until the end. This means he will taper at rates greater than 10% per month starting in August (which worries him a bit) with the goal of being benzo free May 2020!!

 

Any additional feedback is welcome at any point!

 

Best of luck to any of you still going through this hell. And congrats to those of you are living life to its fullest again.

 

[[...]]

The limiting factor in any taper is the percentage cut rate.  That does NOT mean you have to adjust the cut rate afte each reduction, but it does mean you will probably need to periodically adjust the cut rate over the course of the taper.

 

Start at rate that you know will work.  With a daily microtaper, you will NOT get slammed with sxs if you cut to fast.  Any sxs will emerge slowly, and you have time to make adjustments then.

 

I think it's great to start with a plan, but I have found the hard way, its good to stay flexible and adjust your taper if you start having difficult symptoms.  I believe you will be successful and suffer less if you do a "symptom based taper."  I'm right in there with you!  Awesome to have such a supportive sister!!! Please keep us posted about your progress.