The Pink Elephant called Tolerance Withdrawal

[[Su...]]

Thanks Lorazepam for the notation.

So that's where that idea comes from, and it is relevant in many many cases.  Colin started this whole BB so her is a hero in my books.  Such  hero OMG!

 

It is sometimes said of Relative Withdrawal that by staying at a particular dose for too long, you will develop 'Relative Withdrawal' effects to this specific dose, whereas if you were instead tapering, this would not occur - this not how Relative Withdrawal occurs!  Sure is my experience!

 

Maybe my hold is working so well because I tapered off a lot of my meds, did add some longer acting benzo, and am now in a place where I have no interdose w/d or as Colin would call it Relative w/d.  That has been managed by taper speed, adding in a longer acting benzo, times of dosing and now holding.

 

So while if we reach tolerance  -- it doesn't mean we must suffer all the way down during the tapering  if my taper ( and many I have read about) have relevance for others.

If I had kept tapering I'm sure I would have ended up in a very scary place.....

As it is right now I am no longer in tolerance and will continue tapering from a place where my CNS has been stable for a few months.  That may counteract the problems that the tolerance created.

SS

[[St...]]

Well said SS 😍

Trust relative withdrawal symptoms for me were not as intense as acute withdrawal so rushing off has really never  been my choice for getting off these drugs.l think, for me ,l will never feel withdrawal free on these drugs however I am not going to become completely housebound by rushing my taper.

    What everyone seems to forget is tapering is only the beginning and l have witnessed more people who have rushed their taper and had to reinstate.l have yet to see anyone say l tapered too slow and had to reinstate.

    Slow tapering also allows your brain to heal and adjust on the way down.

    I think a lot of suffering on this forum would be eased if people just slowed down and listened to what their body is telling them.

    Also l will not be jumping off l will be sliding off very gently.

[[Su...]]

Well said SS 😍

Trust relative withdrawal symptoms for me were not as intense as acute withdrawal so rushing off has really never  been my choice for getting off these drugs.l think, for me ,l will never feel withdrawal free on these drugs however I am not going to become completely housebound by rushing my taper.

    What everyone seems to forget is tapering is only the beginning and l have witnessed more people who have rushed their taper and had to reinstate.l have yet to see anyone say l tapered too slow and had to reinstate.

    Slow tapering also allows your brain to heal and adjust on the way down.

    I think a lot of suffering on this forum would be eased if people just slowed down and listened to what their body is telling them.

    Also l will not be jumping off l will be sliding off very gently.

:thumbsup:

[[Fi...]]

SS: I see from your sig that around this level, Oct 31st  .25X (4V) hold, is where you found your comfort zone? Have you observed any similarities among other bb for where they have more or less entered into long term holds? I'm currently holding @ .25X but still face the issue of interdose withdrawal & will likely approach my doctor about adding around 5V to my regimen. Although I was at a high dosage of X, I did not feel any withdrawal symptoms until my doctor suggested that I try to cut my dosage "by a tad". I kind of wish I had not heard or acted upon that suggestion. 

[[Su...]]

SS: I see from your sig that around this level, Oct 31st  .25X (4V) hold, is where you found your comfort zone? Have you observed any similarities among other bb for where they have more or less entered into long term holds? I'm currently holding @ .25X but still face the issue of interdose withdrawal & will likely approach my doctor about adding around 5V to my regimen. Although I was at a high dosage of X, I did not feel any withdrawal symptoms until my doctor suggested that I try to cut my dosage "by a tad". I kind of wish I had not heard or acted upon that suggestion.

 

My comfort zone atm -- (with an added 1mg of Valium -- not sure about the wisdom of that decision.... but here we are)

is .18mg of Xanax.  with 5mg of Valium throughout the day in 1mg doses. 

At one point I was down to .15 but very quickly went back up again as I couldn't function. 

 

This hold has been amazing for me and at this point, with dosing many times a day with Valium as my CNS was so very destabilized, I am having few to no sxs.  I am still going to hold for another 20 some odd days to allow my CNS some rest.  My intention with the hold was to get to a place where I had no interdose w/d at all and it has worked.

 

Interdose w/d, according to dm123, puts our CNS into a kind of destabilization  everytime.  When I started dosing many times a  day to insure I don't go into any interdose w/d I started to feel better and better.  Mind you this is all fairly new as I was monkeying around with dosage timing 

 

Xanax is so very very strong! cutting by just "a tad" can destabilize even the most robust systems.  When i start to taper again it will be by .001mg of Xanax every two days....

 

IMHO you may want to play around with the Valium dosing and dosage.  I find relief from 1mg of Valium and was doing just fine on 4mg for a while. (until I didn't slow the f down!  :idiot:)

 

My doc said that was impossible to feel relief from such a small dose, but then she said that 1mg of Xanax wouldn't hurt me 

what I'm saying is you might need less than you think.  I would suggest trying to add it in at 1mg at a time.  (you can get 2mg tablets).

 

I'm unsure how my hold compares to other buddies....  I just know that I listened when someone said  "Hold for three months, don't change a thing dosage wise for three months, don't try to sneak in a cut here or there and see how you feel."  THANK YOU HEATH!!!

 

Hope that answers your questions....

:)

SS

[[Fi...]]

"Hope that answers your questions.... "  thanks & hope you enjoy your window!

 

[[Tr...]]

 

 

From what it sounds like from many with experience in RW/TW, even long holds while in RW/TW can mitigate our symptoms and stabilize us. While logical from a normal taper perspective, this seems go against the whole idea of how Relative Withdrawal begins though--by being on the medicine for a certain length of time. So I (in my limited experience) would think being on it longer would make it worse, which leads to my next question.

 

For those that agree there is a phenomenon called Tolerance or Relative Withdrawal, has anyone heard of the withdrawal symptoms increasing or getting worse over time at a stable dose? Has anyone in the Long Hold Support Group gotten sicker and sicker as they hold? What I'm trying to figure out is if our need for more and more of the benzo keeps building and the symptoms keep increasing. If this is so, theoretically could one of us go into a seizure at a steady dose from Relative Withdrawal?

 

 

 

 

[[St...]]

Hi l have held for 8 months l never felt great however it did allow the acute withdrawal symptoms to settle down.Now the symptoms that were there before l tapered did not disappear.l found relative withdrawal didn't come on over night it crept up over time.

  As for why l am doing a slow withdrawal it is about allowing my brain to catch up with cuts rather than rushing through and dealing with severe withdrawal symptoms when l get off.

    Again l believe seizures are caused by too fast a taper and cold turkey not relative withdrawal.

    Everyone should decide what they do however l really think a slow symptom based taper is better than pushing through.

[[do...]]

 

OTOH, there are BBs who after an individual period of time, start having break through withdrawals, although not currently  tapering, find that they have to increase their dose , (sometimes several times), to get stable again.

 

Other than to significantly prolong the time on benzos, this may be the best harm minimisation for an individual. However, it does depend on a sympathetic medical professional as I suspect the number of doctors who support updosing are in the minority.

 

This seems to be my dilemma. I've reach tolerance w/d at .5 mg K nightly (hence feeling horrible), and since i was trying not to increase, i haven't. Been at it for 10 months at the same dose. However, at this point I think i'd need to stabilize properly in order to taper and end this hell for once and for all. So, I have a question: For how long would i need to updose, and by what percentage increase before i achieve the desired stabilization and start tapering? I'd appreciate any and all the help you can provide.

[[Su...]]

 

OTOH, there are BBs who after an individual period of time, start having break through withdrawals, although not currently  tapering, find that they have to increase their dose , (sometimes several times), to get stable again.

 

Other than to significantly prolong the time on benzos, this may be the best harm minimisation for an individual. However, it does depend on a sympathetic medical professional as I suspect the number of doctors who support updosing are in the minority.

 

This seems to be my dilemma. I've reach tolerance w/d at .5 mg K nightly (hence feeling horrible), and since i was trying not to increase, i haven't. Been at it for 10 months at the same dose. However, at this point I think i'd need to stabilize properly in order to taper and end this hell for once and for all. So, I have a question: For how long would i need to updose, and by what percentage increase before i achieve the desired stabilization and start tapering? I'd appreciate any and all the help you can provide.

Hi Doriia,

May i ask some questions to get a better understanding about what's going on?

Did you taper to .5 k and then hold for 10 months? 

What kind of sxs are you having? 

It may be that your body is suggesting you start tapering again.  Stability is a relative term in these waters. 

I would consider starting to taper again if your sxs are starting to increase, rather than updosing and waiting to feel stable.

 

Everyone must decide of themselves based on what they know about their body etc.... just a suggestion?

SS

[[Tr...]]

 

OTOH, there are BBs who after an individual period of time, start having break through withdrawals, although not currently  tapering, find that they have to increase their dose , (sometimes several times), to get stable again.

 

Other than to significantly prolong the time on benzos, this may be the best harm minimisation for an individual. However, it does depend on a sympathetic medical professional as I suspect the number of doctors who support updosing are in the minority.

 

This seems to be my dilemma. I've reach tolerance w/d at .5 mg K nightly (hence feeling horrible), and since i was trying not to increase, i haven't. Been at it for 10 months at the same dose. However, at this point I think i'd need to stabilize properly in order to taper and end this hell for once and for all. So, I have a question: For how long would i need to updose, and by what percentage increase before i achieve the desired stabilization and start tapering? I'd appreciate any and all the help you can provide.

Hi Doriia,

May i ask some questions to get a better understanding about what's going on?

Did you taper to .5 k and then hold for 10 months? 

What kind of sxs are you having? 

It may be that your body is suggesting you start tapering again.  Stability is a relative term in these waters. 

I would consider starting to taper again if your sxs are starting to increase, rather than updosing and waiting to feel stable.

 

Everyone must decide of themselves based on what they know about their body etc.... just a suggestion?

SS

 

I completely agree with SS. If you are holding and feeling worse and worse you may want to consider cutting. I often ironically feel better after a long hold and cutting.

[[do...]]

 

OTOH, there are BBs who after an individual period of time, start having break through withdrawals, although not currently  tapering, find that they have to increase their dose , (sometimes several times), to get stable again.

 

Other than to significantly prolong the time on benzos, this may be the best harm minimisation for an individual. However, it does depend on a sympathetic medical professional as I suspect the number of doctors who support updosing are in the minority.

 

This seems to be my dilemma. I've reach tolerance w/d at .5 mg K nightly (hence feeling horrible), and since i was trying not to increase, i haven't. Been at it for 10 months at the same dose. However, at this point I think i'd need to stabilize properly in order to taper and end this hell for once and for all. So, I have a question: For how long would i need to updose, and by what percentage increase before i achieve the desired stabilization and start tapering? I'd appreciate any and all the help you can provide.

Hi Doriia,

May i ask some questions to get a better understanding about what's going on?

Did you taper to .5 k and then hold for 10 months? 

What kind of sxs are you having? 

It may be that your body is suggesting you start tapering again.  Stability is a relative term in these waters. 

I would consider starting to taper again if your sxs are starting to increase, rather than updosing and waiting to feel stable.

 

Everyone must decide of themselves based on what they know about their body etc.... just a suggestion?

SS

 

Actually, I started at .5 mg k and never changed, stopped or upped the dose. So, 10 months and I now believe i have developed tolerance/interdose w/ds. The SXS are the most common ones, namely cog fog, agoraphobia, anxiety, etc. I really don't want to updose to stabilize, but some suggested that doing so could be the best course of action in order to taper afterwards. Thanks for your help, I appreciate it. 

[[Ca...]]

 

OTOH, there are BBs who after an individual period of time, start having break through withdrawals, although not currently  tapering, find that they have to increase their dose , (sometimes several times), to get stable again.

 

Other than to significantly prolong the time on benzos, this may be the best harm minimisation for an individual. However, it does depend on a sympathetic medical professional as I suspect the number of doctors who support updosing are in the minority.

 

This seems to be my dilemma. I've reach tolerance w/d at .5 mg K nightly (hence feeling horrible), and since i was trying not to increase, i haven't. Been at it for 10 months at the same dose. However, at this point I think i'd need to stabilize properly in order to taper and end this hell for once and for all. So, I have a question: For how long would i need to updose, and by what percentage increase before i achieve the desired stabilization and start tapering? I'd appreciate any and all the help you can provide.

Hi Doriia,

May i ask some questions to get a better understanding about what's going on?

Did you taper to .5 k and then hold for 10 months? 

What kind of sxs are you having? 

It may be that your body is suggesting you start tapering again.  Stability is a relative term in these waters. 

I would consider starting to taper again if your sxs are starting to increase, rather than updosing and waiting to feel stable.

 

Everyone must decide of themselves based on what they know about their body etc.... just a suggestion?

SS

 

Actually, I started at .5 mg k and never changed, stopped or upped the dose. So, 10 months and I now believe i have developed tolerance/interdose w/ds. The SXS are the most common ones, namely cog fog, agoraphobia, anxiety, etc. I really don't want to updose to stabilize, but some suggested that doing so could be the best course of action in order to taper afterwards. Thanks for your help, I appreciate it.

Hi Doriia,

One methoud you could consider, -If your symptoms (sx) are bearable as it stands, is to start to slowly decrease your dose in a smooth manner and increase or adjust the pace slowly as per sx.. -if possible.. Try to avoid shocking your system here...

Not many of us get to start out without some big mistakes, Usually cutting way too much at the start... To avoid this would be golden, imo..

 

 

***

From what I have noticed,

It seems there can be a point, and this is pretty subjective, where one can transition somehow, from tolerance into a more typical WD, where tactics like slowing and holding Do reduce sx..  Probably back to somewhere around bearable if lucky...  (there are exeptions)

 

One problem is Holding sux.. We dont want to do It by nature.. So most people who decide to commit to a serious long hold are usually in a pretty bad way... The biggest hurdle I see is that most often things can get worse before they get better... (Dose correction could fit in here, but thats another topic) Sadly many people dont or cant push through this to feel the benifits of the long hold... Waves of sx can also follow a long time after the cut/s that initiate them... In my case it took me a little while to work out that my cycle of sx increased for a few months following a cut.. I pill split V, so this was a factor, as well as my overall medication history...

 

Obviously this is very general due to all the variants mentionex in previous posts, like polly drugging, and previous tapers, etc, -Which were both issues for me... My taper plan was to try and avoid shocking my system as much as possible from the cut n hold. So I wanted to feel consistently ok for 3-4weeks before my next cut, -thats how I worked out how long a cuts waves actually lasted... I wouldnt expect it to be so long for most people, as I have ongoing opiate tolerance in the picture, and this is entwined with my SX..

 

We all have to work out our own tapers in the end, -I tapered by Symptoms, but this meant some trial and error, (and some great help from member Valleyum on the LHSG) -There was one time I doubled my V cut size to help identify what was V not opiate tolerance, -It was also a convenient pill split size... This contradicts avoiding to shock our systems, but I needed that info to continue... It was a judgment call for my situation.. One more shock was a drop in the ocean for me..  I also dont seem as sensitive to the small changes like others here are... (the 0.001's (sorry SS ))

 

Anyways to finnish off my ramblings, It took about a year of "just bearable to not too bad" to taper off my last 1mg of valium... I am very glad that in my situation I didnt go any faster... Certainaly with myself, and for another extremely slow taperer I am following, a whole lot happens around 0.25V and below..I feel this was the most important (and interesting) part of MY taper to take slow.. And that there is the value of a DLMT, imo (well one of..)

 

Do long holds work for everyone?? -Perhaps not..  And there are some that I wouldnt recommend one for... For example, Short term or "paradoxical type" symptons.. (as per each situation) -In these areas I have many, many questions still..?? Sometimes people might then find they have other complications like say, a  deficiency or condition that needs attention..??

 

Obviously just my thoughts, based on what I have made out of all this benzo cessation chaos... I still have more questions than answers I think...  We cant compare ourselves to anothers situation too closely, but we may be able to follow some lose guide lines formed from a collective of similar situations perhaps..??

 

"Will a Long Hold help me??" -my answer.. Are you prepared to dedicate 6 months (possibly more or less) to see it through and find out.. -No small decicion.. Too often its a last resort when all else has failed..  Incidently most seem to go on to be very successful post long hold, as they have learnt how to manage their taper in the process...

 

Well I didnt mean to write all this.. I got a bit off track..