Lorazepam

[[In...]]

As you can see, I just responded.

 

I’m well aware that your not chained to a computer or an iPad. I understand completely.

 

And I would never expect anyone to be at my beck and call.

 

It’s time for you to take a deep breath, relax, and seriously, good sir, try to get off that high horse you’re  on.

 

You tend to come across as a bit of a snob here. My perception of you. You’re most likely a very nice person.

[[Ph...]]

PB, anyone ?

 

What about this ?

 

I don´t depend on clonazepam to treat something.  They fucked me up. Agreed, dependence is an euphemism. But people associate addiction with craving and pleasure.

 

´ You have an addiction when you can't stop taking a substance or engaging in an activity.´ Well, you know I could. Just don´t ask what happens next ... I wouldn´t call that withdrawal ...

More like exposure of intense and physical harm. Anyone to keep the people away who would ´help´ me ? You know, with antipsychotics or clonazepam ....

 

It´s not the CT I could have experienced 5 years ago. And  no, these things quite often do not go ´by the book´.  The local village idiot ´GP´ really fucked me up. Couldn´t have happened in USA, Dutch system is horrible.

 

Addiction ? The question of local addiction services/care ´what goes though your mind when you take a pill´I can answer with ´so awful that I see myself forced to take that clonazepam because of what that horrible GP did´. I had expected to be off 4 years ago, latest. Long story, you can read bits and pieces on this forum.

 

Thanks for your thoughts on this, liberty.

 

Says you:  "The local village idiot ´GP´ really fucked me up. Couldnt have happened in USA..."

 

Oh yes it could've !!  Happens every day of the week.

[[Ph...]]

As you can see, I just responded.

 

I’m well aware that your not chained to a computer or an iPad. I understand completely.

 

And I would never expect anyone to be at my beck and call.

 

It’s time for you to take a deep breath, relax, and seriously, good sir, try to get off that high horse you’re  on.

 

You tend to come across as a bit of a snob here. My perception of you. You’re most likely a very nice person.

 

"You tend to come across as a bit of a snob here.  My perception of you.  You’re most likely a very nice person."

 

Thank you for rendering your perception of me as a snob, which was preceded by your spot-on rendering of me as an addict, although not for the reasons you thought...maybe. 

 

I'm getting more than I bargained for!  You're quite the renderer there, Intend!

 

I like it up here on my horse.  The view is better.  I see things from here that others don't see.  Care to take a ride?

 

Please don't label me as a snob simply because I express ideas that challenge your beliefs and make you uncomfortable or because I'm completely unattached to the consequences of expressing them.  It's rare in groups to see this, but snobbish?  Oh, I don't know...are you sure you've rendered the right word there?

 

If it's all the same to you, I prefer "pompous ogre."  At least do me that much.

 

Aha, we've strayed from the addiction verses dependence subject.  I see what you did there...

 

What are you doing next weekend?

 

[[In...]]

Photobug,

 

Pompous ogre it is then. No problemo.

 

I’ve been on a horse or two. At this time of my life, I prefer to walk on level ground. But I can surely understand why you like riding that horse. It’s fun and exciting, and a person does see what others may not see.

 

I also see what others may or may not see on that level ground.

 

No labels here. My perception: remember? And you surely have the right to call yourself an addict if you want to label yourself as such.

 

Its a good thing to discuss different ideas and thoughts. Don’t think I’d call that as challenging though. A bit of a strong term there. Just a discussion; not a competition; no dispute; we think what we think.

Nothing uncomfortable about that or rare. We call it as we see it and as we think it. We both do.

 

As for next weekend; let’s think. Let’s relax and take that healing breath.

 

 

[[Ph...]]

Well that interdose withdrawl is upsetting for sure. That happens often on Ativan and xanax, and it is a great relief to get that next dose. I totally understand that.

 

Plenty of people have that problem. I was unusual in that I did take xanax, but only once a day. Never felt the need to take more. Slept fine. No problems. But I had a rough cross to K, and now have plenty of difficulties. Just too much messing up by doctors, and switching of generic brands. I have a very good doctor now thank goodness.

 

I’ve just not had any interdose withdrawals ever. Doing ok with my K taper, but another switch coming up. All these generic K discontinuations have affected many people here.

 

When I said that the BIC folks were not so happy, my meaning is that they were totally dissatisfied with the way it was handled. As in handled badly. It is not about making anybody “happy.”

 

I do know I’m in the majority as far as this problem of benzos being a dependency. Most people here do think that. It’s not just their opinion. Most here come to this forum knowing very little about benzos if even anything. They learn as they go. And this is what they learn.

 

Personally, I never thought much about either way. I’ve just wanted off, and that’s it. But I’ve learned that “addiction language” tends to put one in a category that is not only inaccurate, but a place that most professionals healthcare folks want a person to go to a detox facility. I tend to think you did not want to do that yourself, and thus you didn’t do that.

 

Addicts can do very well in a detox setting. They simply have trouble with relapsing. The average relapse for alcoholics is @12 relapses before they truly work hard to get off and stay off.

 

So that’s the addiction picture. You weren’t like that at all from my understanding. So by my definition, you were not an addict. But you can call yourself whatever you want. It’s your right to do this.

 

This is a well reasoned response in a nice tone.  At least here, you seem to have taken off your flak jacket and climbed down from the bench.  To quote one of your statements:

 

"I do know I’m in the majority as far as this problem of benzos being a dependency. Most people here do think that. It’s not just their opinion. Most here come to this forum knowing very little about benzos if even anything. They learn as they go.  And this is what they learn."

 

Exactly correct.  You're in the majority and yes, they come here as bewildered, vulnerable blank slates and this what they learn.  That's the script.

 

And that's okay, really.  The problem isn't in here, it's out there.  I have to believe that doctors in general and psychiatrists and drug company types specifically were both threatened and pissed over the NBC piece.  The first time any salvo with a real punch was thrown in their direction.  The A-word with a bottle of Xanax on the screen threatens them, worries them and suggests to them that they will have to change the way they do business if this keeps up.

 

Use the D-word instead?  Sorry, but I just suppressed a laugh.

 

Active campaigners and others can learn something about fixing a problem from the Me Too movement, which over the past year decided to play hardball with their abusers...regardless of political affiliation (a real shocker).  Jerks lost their jobs.  Famous jerks, rich jerks, political jerks, previously invulnerable jerks.  All of them.  In less than a year the entire landscape has changed.  Only a fool will try to exploit a woman in the workplace now.  Think about this. 

 

This is what is GREAT about the NBC piece.  Celebrate that piece and push for more, just like it.  Fast.  And never, never, substitute the D-word for the A-word.  That's like telling Charlie Rose "It's okay, Charlie, you were just flirting."

 

And of course it IS about addiction.  Doctor-caused, doctor-enabled addiction.  Michael Behan had it right in 2005 and it's still right today.

[[Lo...]]

Well that interdose withdrawl is upsetting for sure. That happens often on Ativan and xanax, and it is a great relief to get that next dose. I totally understand that.

 

Plenty of people have that problem. I was unusual in that I did take xanax, but only once a day. Never felt the need to take more. Slept fine. No problems. But I had a rough cross to K, and now have plenty of difficulties. Just too much messing up by doctors, and switching of generic brands. I have a very good doctor now thank goodness.

 

I’ve just not had any interdose withdrawals ever. Doing ok with my K taper, but another switch coming up. All these generic K discontinuations have affected many people here.

 

When I said that the BIC folks were not so happy, my meaning is that they were totally dissatisfied with the way it was handled. As in handled badly. It is not about making anybody “happy.”

 

I do know I’m in the majority as far as this problem of benzos being a dependency. Most people here do think that. It’s not just their opinion. Most here come to this forum knowing very little about benzos if even anything. They learn as they go. And this is what they learn.

 

Personally, I never thought much about either way. I’ve just wanted off, and that’s it. But I’ve learned that “addiction language” tends to put one in a category that is not only inaccurate, but a place that most professionals healthcare folks want a person to go to a detox facility. I tend to think you did not want to do that yourself, and thus you didn’t do that.

 

Addicts can do very well in a detox setting. They simply have trouble with relapsing. The average relapse for alcoholics is @12 relapses before they truly work hard to get off and stay off.

 

So that’s the addiction picture. You weren’t like that at all from my understanding. So by my definition, you were not an addict. But you can call yourself whatever you want. It’s your right to do this.

 

This is a well reasoned response in a nice tone.  At least here, you seem to have taken off your flak jacket and climbed down from the bench.  To quote one of your statements:

 

"I do know I’m in the majority as far as this problem of benzos being a dependency. Most people here do think that. It’s not just their opinion. Most here come to this forum knowing very little about benzos if even anything. They learn as they go.  And this is what they learn."

 

Exactly correct.  You're in the majority and yes, they come here as bewildered, vulnerable blank slates and this what they learn.  That's the script.

 

And that's okay, really.  The problem isn't in here, it's out there.  I have to believe that doctors in general and psychiatrists and drug company types specifically were both threatened and pissed over the NBC piece.  The first time any salvo with a real punch was thrown in their direction.  The A-word with a bottle of Xanax on the screen threatens them, worries them and suggests to them that they will have to change the way they do business if this keeps up.

 

Use the D-word instead?  Sorry, but I just suppressed a laugh.

 

Active campaigners and others can learn something about fixing a problem from the Me Too movement, which over the past year decided to play hardball with their abusers...regardless of political affiliation (a real shocker).  Jerks lost their jobs.  Famous jerks, rich jerks, political jerks, previously invulnerable jerks.  All of them.  In less than a year the entire landscape has changed.  Only a fool will try to exploit a woman in the workplace now.  Think about this. 

 

This is what is GREAT about the NBC piece.  Celebrate that piece and push for more, just like it.  Fast.  And never, never, substitute the D-word for the A-word.  That's like telling Charlie Rose "It's okay, Charlie, you were just flirting."

 

And of course it IS about addiction.  Doctor-caused, doctor-enabled addiction.  Michael Behan had it right in 2005 and it's still right today.

 

I am not so sure that doctors will flinch all that much on the mention of benzo addiction, esp. Xanax addiction, as Xanax has been made the big villain for a long, long time. They are under no legal obligation to keep prescribing to benzo-addicted patients, even though they may have caused/enabled addiction. All the addiction language will do is shift doctors' prescribing practices, so instead of refilling an addicted patient's benzo prescriptions to allow for a safe taper, they will throw drugs such as Gabapentin, or neuroleptics or SSRI's or TCA's to "help" with withdrawal. I was actually told by a couple of psychiatrists and a family doctor that they no longer prescribe benzos (I have no way to verify those claims), but they still obviously prescribe many other psychiatric drugs. I was surely offered many, many Rx drugs, including Seroquel and Ambien to "aid" in getting off of benzos. Surely, this "non-addictive" medication called Seroquel can certainly halt benzo withdrawal on it's own, right....

 

Today, in 2018, a benzo-addicted patient may be either just flat out abandoned or be given a combo of doxepin for sleep, buspar for anxiety, Gabapentin for unknown reasons, maybe Remeron for sleep/depression, or maybe just an SSRI. I don't see how this will help. Forcing someone into a cold turkey situation.

 

I don't know, PhotobugSF. Maybe the addiction language with benzos could have been aggressively used in 2004/2005 when people were not on as many combinations and permutations of psychiatric drugs, but now doctors have so many pharmaceutical options to throw at a benzo withdrawal, and can pretend that they are helping their patients beat benzo addiction while prescribing meds that are of very questionable value in benzo wd. Only a benzo can replace a benzo.

 

If a patient can afford a psychiatrist who understands these drugs well and knows how to help, then maybe the language does not matter. But if addiction language ends up dispatching a patient in mortal danger to a detox center, that is horrible. Great for the detox center. Horrible for the patient.

 

The waters have been too muddied, and times when people were just on an AD or just on a benzo are long, long gone. Cocktails of medications are a norm today, rather than the exception, and things have gotten far more complicated. Many people ending up on 8 different meds (regular and psychiatric) to replace a benzo. And then "mission accomplished" by modern medicine. Benzo prescriptons are down by bridging people down to cocktails of z-drugs, AP's, AD's, anti-histamines, atypical AP's, anti-convulsants, bipolar drugs, beta blockers, high doses of blood pressure pills, etc.

 

Pretty soon, it will be "off your benzo? Got your Abilify yet??". A blown out GABA/Glutamate system isn't addiction. You could argue if there was an addiction or not based on how a person got there, but the end result is not. It's CNS damage. And other psychiatric drugs that doctors so love to prescribe will not help with that. In fact, I slightly "envy" people like Behan to an extent, because Ativan was most likely the only thing he had to contend with. It wasn't like today, where people wonder "Is Klonopin doing this to me, or is it Paxil, or Prozac, or Lithium or Seroquel, or Risperdal. Which one is making me sick?"

 

Also, fewer and fewer people are being started on a benzo these days. It's always an SSRI or an AP or a bipolar drug, and benzo is often given as a bridge to help the startup period for another drug. And then, the confuson ensues and a patient cannot get off of a benzo all of a sudden.

[[Lo...]]

The words to use for this: disability, damage, neurotoxicity. Very few newcomers will take benzos if they hear that benzos are neurotoxic and can cause disability, central nervous injury and neurological and other kind of damage. And once the damage occurs, the only way it can be minimized is by a slow taper off the drug. Nice and clear. Now, why do we go 'round and 'round with addiction/dependence without acknowleding the truth? Probably the same reason many people take a benzo for initially: FEAR.

[[lo...]]

Too much here for me to digest.  However ...

 

I agree that disability, damage, neurotoxicity are  the right words to use for those of us who are badly damaged by these drugs.  These are also the correct words for SSRI antidepressants which are not classed as addictive.  In the UK we as campaigners talk very much about brain damage, brain injury, iatrogenic harm which is exactly what it is.

 

The word addiction was used for years in the UK re benzodiazepines by campaigners so we got addiction services totally unsuited to those who took benzodiazepines as prescribed.  The use of the word was ineffective in achieving the right sort of support for patients.  The medical profession in the UK likes to point to the fact that SSRIs are not addictive and therefore "good" drugs, and benzodiazepines are hugely addictive and really "bad" drugs.  The press uses a mishmash of the terms and it is confusing.

 

For myself, I cannot relate to the word "addict", never craved the drug, never increased the dose, just took it like I would have taken any other medication.  I didn't even have any real symptoms whilst tapering yet a catastrophic brain-injury is the result.

 

And the veteran campaigners like Mike Behan are still in the picture and not happy with the way things are going in the UK.  They think the review by Public Health England will be a whitewash and nothing of note will be achieved.  Time will tell.

 

So whatever language is used, the powers that be will perhaps refuse to act in any meaningful way, simply because the vested interests are too great.

 

And of course we have gone full circle and have an SSRI antidepressant prescribing disaster on the same scale as we had a benzodiazepine prescribing disaster.  No doubt it will take decades to sort that one out.

 

We have the opioids as well of course ..

[[Te...]]

Photobug,

 

Maybe you got mixed up here. Terry wasn’t asking that last post. It was me. You know, it’s me.

 

I’m Intend To Be Off. I’m not Terry.

 

Actually by now I could be Want to be Off or Plan to be Off. This is taking awhile and I’m tired of it.

 

But I haven’t changed my moniker so it’s me. Not Terry.

 

But I guess your answer was in that response to Terry. So whatever. Seems you’re totally convinced so no point in debating the issue.

 

Actually the BIC folks weren’t so happy with the addiction labeling. You need to read those posts or maybe you have.

 

Ok you were an addict. Guess you acted like one too. That’s my conclusion.

 

"Ok you were an addict. Guess you acted like one too. That’s my conclusion."

 

Thank you for rendering your conclusion.  I absolutely was addicted and was therefore an addict.  The word addict is derived from the word addicted.  But I did not exhibit the behavioral traits (such as seeking the drug) that are ascribed to an addict by those who favor the word dependent.  I didn't need to seek, I had a prescription.  I didn't risk an OD because I took the medication as prescribed.  But yes, I did feel what can be described as a "high" in the form of great relief from interdose withdrawals and the psychological assurance that I would not crash and burn, just as we all do (or did).  This is a very simple matter.  Although the purpose of the initial prescription was to treat a condition, it became more and more clear as the years went on that I was taking the drug simply because I was taking the drug.  This is addiction, not dependency.  As I said, we all embrace the definitions we like.

 

"Actually the BIC folks weren’t so happy with the addiction labeling. You need to read those posts or maybe you have."

 

Of course I read the posts.  But my views, and apparently the views of NBC in this case, are not influenced by whether or not they make other people happy.  If we're trying to see an important thing clearly, making people happy is the last thing to consider.

 

"Seems you’re totally convinced so no point in debating the issue."

 

Correct.  We've gone round and round on this in this forum for a long time.  But take heart, your views are in the clear majority.  In fact, in this forum I believe I'm the only outlier.  The dependency people are ruling the roost!

 

Well, you and I are very different, PhotoBug. I took the pill only because I couldn't stand the withdrawals. I tried to get off. I even went to a pharmacist and asked how to taper, but their tapering method was way too fast. I didn't know that at the time, and certainly found out later. I even c't'd .5 mg. of Ativan. That was a nightmare that I don't ever wish to relive. Vertigo lasting 20 minutes, the room spinning out of control. Still, I wouldn't updose. I never got any "high" from it.

 

You could have just stopped taking it, right, and would have no ill effects whatsoever?? I find that hard to believe with Ativan. If you did have problems quitting, you aren't an addict. You just wanted to relieve the symptoms by taking it.

[[Bl...]]

What I don’t agree with is this “addict label” for benzos. It’s a chemical dependency period.

 

Did you crave it Photobug? Did you give up your job, family, and your home to get it?

 

Did you buy it off the street from drug sellers? Did you get “high” from using it?

 

That’s pretty much the idea of addiction. You know; that reward type feeling.

 

 

I was recently imagining seeing the VA psychiatrist who used the word addiction during what was probably the last time I saw them….

QUESTION I would like to ask them: I would really like an honest answer to:……"what exactly was meant when you used the word “addiction”?

 

Too bad my brain was too fried and my physical stamina too weak to ask that during that session. Also, at that time, I still did not know the POWER behind the drugs that had sunk me deep into that system.

 

And I need to add that I was scared to death of what was happening to me then and where it would finally end, or if it would even end. I still did not fully grasp then that Ativan and Ambien were the FULL issue in my case…..I CERTAINLY was not, even for a moment, thinking I needed these drugs….wanted these drugs….had to have these drugs FOR LIFE!

 

All I could do at that time was helplessly stare back at them as they "solemnly" stared at me. As the word "ADDICTION" clobbered me over the head. Mission accomplished.

 

I still can’t believe what I suffered through due to these drugs and how I was treated at every turn in the road. How do people sleep who perpetuate this kind of patient treatment?? Be careful of this WEB….it’s unbelievable from my experience.

[[In...]]

Thank you Blue Rose for this post.

 

This quote from me is the essence of my thoughts on “addiction language “ is regards to benzos. I do think it can be dangerous because it labels people as being addicts of some sort. And then a health professional may want someone to taper way too fast, stop immediately, or go to a detox canter right away.

 

I got quoted a lot yesterday from my conversation with Photobug that took place on the 29th of July. I saw all this yesterday morning, and I was quite surprised. I saw so many quotes that I didn’t even know how to respond. So I didn’t respond, but it bothered me all day.

 

It was “dizzying” to me because I saw what I thought were quotes taken out of context, but also what I think were Photobugs responses to me being in a different order than the conversation we had was. I can’t really say for sure to be honest. I can only speak for myself.

 

So I say about all my posting to him and all these quotes-I do think this is a chemical dependency. I do think that labeling this as an addiction is not good. Maybe the term itself has been used before the concept of dependence was ever thought of, but dependence HAS NOW been “discovered.” I’d like for folks to understand that, but I can force anyone to do that. People can certainly call themselves addicts if they want to do that, and I fully expect that this term will continue to be used.

 

I’m certainly not going to debate this with anyone at all. It seemed to me that Photobug wanted this to be a contest or competition between the two of us. I probably let that discussion go there which is why I said to him “it’s not a competition or a contest, but a discussion.” Guess I didn’t even quote myself correctly, but I’m not going back to look at what I wrote. People can call themselves what they want; that’s their right.

 

I think lookingforward wrote a very good point when she mentioned how addiction language was used in the U.K. enough that addiction services were then provided to folks on benzos and proved to be inappropriate for people. I’m guessing when I say that I think she meant people were taken off these drugs too quickly, and/or detoxed leaving lasting consequences for them. She can speak for herself about what she meant; that was my interpretation of her words though.

 

And some where in all of this, I thought Loraz made an extremely good point: health professionals are more concerned about getting people labeled as an addict than actually getting them safely off this medication. I completely agree with that. He also said somewhere in all of this that IT IS AS IMPORTANT TO EMPHASIZE THE NECESSITY OF A SAFE TAPER as it is to emphasize the possible dangers of these drugs.

 

Thank you lookingforward and Loraz for making such good points. And thank you Blue Rose for your quote of me here today. Those are my thoughts about this completely as I reflect on yesterday, and put this altogether. You said this much better than I could have yesterday.

 

Most if not all of us just want to get past benzos and get on with our lives, hope that we’re doing things correctly, and that we have a good outcome at some point. I could care less about “jousting” with anyone about this. Perhaps others enjoy the “joust.” I don’t. End of story.

 

 

[[lo...]]

Yes, I meant that addiction services taper patients off too quickly, patients who have taken as prescribed.  Even now patients are being forced off too quickly by doctors who are used to dealing with illegal drug addicts.  This is despite the UK already having appropriate tapering guidelines based on the Ashton manual ... although even Ashton's rates can be too fast for some.

[[In...]]

Lookingforward,

 

Thanks for clarifying that. I thought you meant it that way. Always better to hear it from the person who said it.

 

And thanks for reading my long post. I just had to set my own meaning straight.

[[Bl...]]

Thank you Intend to be off. From my own personal experience I know what it is like to be on both sides of the fence……BEING an addict versus BEING dependent on a drug.

 

When I was addicted I would have sold my soul to get what I needed. When I was dependent on benzos….let’s just say I know what it feels like when the thought of death is welcomed; given life was beyond my ability to bear alone because of acute benzo w/d….and I was very much alone during the acute phase of benzo w/d.

 

I still get those feelings, albeit MUCH less intense. And these thoughts periodically surface, although four years out from my last benzo crumb. There is NEVER any alarming reason for these dreaded thoughts to surface.

 

It is clearly the benzo damage that triggers these dreaded thoughts…..and I hate it when this ugly symptom surfaces.

 

I love life….always have….always will. What I hate is what these drugs have done to me and others!!! It's a well-hidden tragedy that unfortunately falls under the guise of addiction.

[[In...]]

Blue Rose,

 

You said that so well. You know addiction for yourself. And you can see the difference having taken benzos.

 

Oh yes, the injury of these drugs, and how well the injury of benzos is hidden under true addiction.

 

Thank you so much for quoting something I had said to Photobug. It help me so much to finally express my feelings this morning. I was just unable to yesterday. You brought that out of me today.

 

I can’t thank you enough. But I thank you!!

[[Bl...]]

Your welcome Intend to be off.

 

This journey also comes with the added benefit of causing contentious-like frustration from trying to explain to others, who haven't been in our shoes, the severity of injury caused by these drugs to our brains.....and while in discussion painstakingly navigating this complex subject hoping they go away with some understanding. lol

 

And when frustrations surface from within the benzo community ranks, (given the nature of this complex subject, disagreements will occur), it can be all the more frustrating.

 

I can't wait until the day when this chapter in my life becomes a faint memory (it sure came into my life like a roaring lion ).

[[In...]]

Yes, it came roaring into my life also.

 

I just want to get off, and get on with my life. And have it become a faint memory as you say.

[[Ph...]]

Well that interdose withdrawl is upsetting for sure. That happens often on Ativan and xanax, and it is a great relief to get that next dose. I totally understand that.

 

Plenty of people have that problem. I was unusual in that I did take xanax, but only once a day. Never felt the need to take more. Slept fine. No problems. But I had a rough cross to K, and now have plenty of difficulties. Just too much messing up by doctors, and switching of generic brands. I have a very good doctor now thank goodness.

 

I’ve just not had any interdose withdrawals ever. Doing ok with my K taper, but another switch coming up. All these generic K discontinuations have affected many people here.

 

When I said that the BIC folks were not so happy, my meaning is that they were totally dissatisfied with the way it was handled. As in handled badly. It is not about making anybody “happy.”

 

I do know I’m in the majority as far as this problem of benzos being a dependency. Most people here do think that. It’s not just their opinion. Most here come to this forum knowing very little about benzos if even anything. They learn as they go. And this is what they learn.

 

Personally, I never thought much about either way. I’ve just wanted off, and that’s it. But I’ve learned that “addiction language” tends to put one in a category that is not only inaccurate, but a place that most professionals healthcare folks want a person to go to a detox facility. I tend to think you did not want to do that yourself, and thus you didn’t do that.

 

Addicts can do very well in a detox setting. They simply have trouble with relapsing. The average relapse for alcoholics is @12 relapses before they truly work hard to get off and stay off.

 

So that’s the addiction picture. You weren’t like that at all from my understanding. So by my definition, you were not an addict. But you can call yourself whatever you want. It’s your right to do this.

 

This is a well reasoned response in a nice tone.  At least here, you seem to have taken off your flak jacket and climbed down from the bench.  To quote one of your statements:

 

"I do know I’m in the majority as far as this problem of benzos being a dependency. Most people here do think that. It’s not just their opinion. Most here come to this forum knowing very little about benzos if even anything. They learn as they go.  And this is what they learn."

 

Exactly correct.  You're in the majority and yes, they come here as bewildered, vulnerable blank slates and this what they learn.  That's the script.

 

And that's okay, really.  The problem isn't in here, it's out there.  I have to believe that doctors in general and psychiatrists and drug company types specifically were both threatened and pissed over the NBC piece.  The first time any salvo with a real punch was thrown in their direction.  The A-word with a bottle of Xanax on the screen threatens them, worries them and suggests to them that they will have to change the way they do business if this keeps up.

 

Use the D-word instead?  Sorry, but I just suppressed a laugh.

 

Active campaigners and others can learn something about fixing a problem from the Me Too movement, which over the past year decided to play hardball with their abusers...regardless of political affiliation (a real shocker).  Jerks lost their jobs.  Famous jerks, rich jerks, political jerks, previously invulnerable jerks.  All of them.  In less than a year the entire landscape has changed.  Only a fool will try to exploit a woman in the workplace now.  Think about this. 

 

This is what is GREAT about the NBC piece.  Celebrate that piece and push for more, just like it.  Fast.  And never, never, substitute the D-word for the A-word.  That's like telling Charlie Rose "It's okay, Charlie, you were just flirting."

 

And of course it IS about addiction.  Doctor-caused, doctor-enabled addiction.  Michael Behan had it right in 2005 and it's still right today.

 

I am not so sure that doctors will flinch all that much on the mention of benzo addiction, esp. Xanax addiction, as Xanax has been made the big villain for a long, long time. They are under no legal obligation to keep prescribing to benzo-addicted patients, even though they may have caused/enabled addiction. All the addiction language will do is shift doctors' prescribing practices, so instead of refilling an addicted patient's benzo prescriptions to allow for a safe taper, they will throw drugs such as Gabapentin, or neuroleptics or SSRI's or TCA's to "help" with withdrawal. I was actually told by a couple of psychiatrists and a family doctor that they no longer prescribe benzos (I have no way to verify those claims), but they still obviously prescribe many other psychiatric drugs. I was surely offered many, many Rx drugs, including Seroquel and Ambien to "aid" in getting off of benzos. Surely, this "non-addictive" medication called Seroquel can certainly halt benzo withdrawal on it's own, right....

 

Today, in 2018, a benzo-addicted patient may be either just flat out abandoned or be given a combo of doxepin for sleep, buspar for anxiety, Gabapentin for unknown reasons, maybe Remeron for sleep/depression, or maybe just an SSRI. I don't see how this will help. Forcing someone into a cold turkey situation.

 

I don't know, PhotobugSF. Maybe the addiction language with benzos could have been aggressively used in 2004/2005 when people were not on as many combinations and permutations of psychiatric drugs, but now doctors have so many pharmaceutical options to throw at a benzo withdrawal, and can pretend that they are helping their patients beat benzo addiction while prescribing meds that are of very questionable value in benzo wd. Only a benzo can replace a benzo.

 

If a patient can afford a psychiatrist who understands these drugs well and knows how to help, then maybe the language does not matter. But if addiction language ends up dispatching a patient in mortal danger to a detox center, that is horrible. Great for the detox center. Horrible for the patient.

 

The waters have been too muddied, and times when people were just on an AD or just on a benzo are long, long gone. Cocktails of medications are a norm today, rather than the exception, and things have gotten far more complicated. Many people ending up on 8 different meds (regular and psychiatric) to replace a benzo. And then "mission accomplished" by modern medicine. Benzo prescriptons are down by bridging people down to cocktails of z-drugs, AP's, AD's, anti-histamines, atypical AP's, anti-convulsants, bipolar drugs, beta blockers, high doses of blood pressure pills, etc.

 

Pretty soon, it will be "off your benzo? Got your Abilify yet??". A blown out GABA/Glutamate system isn't addiction. You could argue if there was an addiction or not based on how a person got there, but the end result is not. It's CNS damage. And other psychiatric drugs that doctors so love to prescribe will not help with that. In fact, I slightly "envy" people like Behan to an extent, because Ativan was most likely the only thing he had to contend with. It wasn't like today, where people wonder "Is Klonopin doing this to me, or is it Paxil, or Prozac, or Lithium or Seroquel, or Risperdal. Which one is making me sick?"

 

Also, fewer and fewer people are being started on a benzo these days. It's always an SSRI or an AP or a bipolar drug, and benzo is often given as a bridge to help the startup period for another drug. And then, the confuson ensues and a patient cannot get off of a benzo all of a sudden.

 

LF, thanks for this, I can see it took time to write.  You raise some good points, such as these:

 

"I am not so sure that doctors will flinch all that much on the mention of benzo addiction, esp. Xanax addiction, as Xanax has been made the big villain for a long, long time. They are under no legal obligation to keep prescribing to benzo-addicted patients, even though they may have caused/enabled addiction. All the addiction language will do is shift doctors' prescribing practices, so instead of refilling an addicted patient's benzo prescriptions to allow for a safe taper, they will throw drugs such as Gabapentin, or neuroleptics or SSRI's or TCA's to "help" with withdrawal."

 

It IS problematic.  If and when the heat is turned up on prescribers, it will get a little rough out there.  In a perfect world, legislation would be enacted that would "grandfather in" all existing patients receiving benzos and stipulate that they cannot be yanked off of them.  In a perfect world, doctors would by law be trained in Ashton-like tapering methods.  But these things won't happen prior to the shit hitting the fan...only after.

 

This tells me that if I were still taking them, I'd stock up and at the same time find a doctor that will hang in there with me.

 

In a sense, the drug is holding everyone hostage, semi-paralyzed.  We want to make progress, but not too much progress.  We're deathly afraid that we will make so much progress that prescribers will dump us.  What a situation this is.  So we go "shhh...let's not say this is physical addiction...shhh!!!"  The bad guys got us by the short hairs.

 

So our movers, shakers and campaigners have to choose.

 

1.  Stay where we are and dance around the rattlesnake, careful not to wake it up.  Use careful language that fails to arouse the public.  (A waste of time and money and a guarantee that newly-addicted people will be joining Benzo Buddies for at least the next 20 years.)

 

2.  Declare war and treat it like one.  Personally, I'd send money to a 501c3 with this view.

 

Think buses with full-bus length graphic on the sides showing a crying woman in her kitchen, struggling to cut her tablets, open prescription bottle with tablets strewn on the countertop.  With a huge caption that reads "STOP BENZODIAZEPINE ADDICTION NOW."  And the website address for the Benzodiazepine Information Coalition.

 

Think continuously running Facebook Ads with the similar messages.

 

Think barrages of similar messages to lawmakers, challenging them to introduce legislation at state and federal levels.

 

Think law firms looking to cash in on damages.  All you need is one precedent and the dam breaks.

 

There's no other way.  NBC was a great start.  More !!

 

I know this takes money, but contributors need to know they're not wasting it.

[Guest [Le...]]

Think buses with full-bus length graphic on the sides showing a crying woman in her kitchen, struggling to cut her tablets, open prescription bottle with tablets strewn on the countertop.  With a huge caption that reads "STOP BENZODIAZEPINE ADDICTION NOW."  And the website address for the Benzodiazepine Information Coalition.

 

Good idea except for the imagery.

 

I used to cut my Ativan cleanly and sharply, just like a man – with an X-Acto knife, right on top of my desk at the office.

[[Lo...]]

Think buses with full-bus length graphic on the sides showing a crying woman in her kitchen, struggling to cut her tablets, open prescription bottle with tablets strewn on the countertop.  With a huge caption that reads "STOP BENZODIAZEPINE ADDICTION NOW."  And the website address for the Benzodiazepine Information Coalition.

 

Good idea except for the imagery.

 

I used to cut my Ativan cleanly and sharply, just like a man – with an X-Acto knife, right on top of my desk at the office.

 

I recall picking up this brochure from a Dr's office in my early 20's, and it was something along the lines of "Life is hard. Everyone lives paycheck to paycheck. When the times get rough both men and women reach for a bottle...", where men were shown with a bottle of alcohol and women with a bottle of tranquilizers.". Stereotypically dismissive. But then it went along the lines of "You can't afford to feel bad emotions, as they are bad for your health".

 

So wrong on so many levels. People need to be able to feel. It's suppressing the feelings that causes problems. Also, the male doctor's (it was a male doctor) dismissive stererotype of mostly women being on benzos. I think it would be important to show that many men take benzos, too (And boy, do they hide it from everyone).I recently watched the Elizabeth Vargas interview and her speaking about her problems with alcoholism. At one point, she wanted to tell her bosses that it was alcohol and ambien, because having an alcohol problem only seemed so un-feminine to her. Since the guys are supposed to be tough, and a guy with a beer bottle looks much more self-assured than the guy with a benzo bottle, I think it is important that men speak about this and to recognize the benzo problem as occurring to both genders, equally. A guy with a benzo bottle might feel un-masculine, compared to his beer drinking counterpart.

 

May as well show a commercial of a War Vet with PTSD and showing how the guy fought off enemy fire and saved his troops' lives, only to show him sweaty, shaky and chained to a tiny white pill he's trying to get off of. I think this man said it so well

 

[[Lo...]]

I think William Styron did a great job with his Darkness Visible memoir, having dealt with alcoholism and an ativan/halcion addiction. Shame that so few people find that book before this hits them.

 

And of course, the non-drinking crowd will go like "Oh, no, I don't drink. This will never happen to me". The drinking crowd will say, "nope, not me. I don't take pills." And the occasional/light benzo user will look at it and say "oh, not me either. I'd never allow it to get to that level". But, in actuality, everyone is at risk.

 

Usually, when people ask me about this, I point them to Styron's book. He explains this hell pretty darn well.

 

https://archive.org/stream/DarknessVisiblewilliamStyron/123144___william_styron_-_darkness_visible_--_a_memoir_of_madness_djvu.txt

[[Lo...]]

Segment including Michael Behan

 

[[Ph...]]

Think buses with full-bus length graphic on the sides showing a crying woman in her kitchen, struggling to cut her tablets, open prescription bottle with tablets strewn on the countertop.  With a huge caption that reads "STOP BENZODIAZEPINE ADDICTION NOW."  And the website address for the Benzodiazepine Information Coalition.

 

Good idea except for the imagery.

 

I used to cut my Ativan cleanly and sharply, just like a man – with an X-Acto knife, right on top of my desk at the office.

 

If the imagery sinks in and makes an unforgettable impact, the gender of the model doesn't matter.  But message that needs to be conveyed is that this scourge isn't just affecting marginalized people on the streets.  It's hitting the mainstream.  All colors, all socioeconomic segments.  The NBC segment, showing a middle-aged white lady in a nice kitchen weighing chunks of a benzo on a scale was perfect.  And showing a bottle of prescribed tablets was outstanding, dead-on!  But yeah, a guy in an office with an X-Acto knife, hiding behind a filing cabinet maybe, that's good too, as long as the image shows that he's suffering.  Because that's what we do in interdose withdrawal.  We suffer.

 

BTW, I was never able to cut Ativan tablets cleanly and sharply like a man.  And I was never able to turn my kitchen into a liquid titration lab.  Thank goodness someone turned me on to compounding.

 

[[Ph...]]

Think buses with full-bus length graphic on the sides showing a crying woman in her kitchen, struggling to cut her tablets, open prescription bottle with tablets strewn on the countertop.  With a huge caption that reads "STOP BENZODIAZEPINE ADDICTION NOW."  And the website address for the Benzodiazepine Information Coalition.

 

Good idea except for the imagery.

 

I used to cut my Ativan cleanly and sharply, just like a man – with an X-Acto knife, right on top of my desk at the office.

 

I recall picking up this brochure from a Dr's office in my early 20's, and it was something along the lines of "Life is hard. Everyone lives paycheck to paycheck. When the times get rough both men and women reach for a bottle...", where men were shown with a bottle of alcohol and women with a bottle of tranquilizers.". Stereotypically dismissive. But then it went along the lines of "You can't afford to feel bad emotions, as they are bad for your health".

 

So wrong on so many levels. People need to be able to feel. It's suppressing the feelings that causes problems. Also, the male doctor's (it was a male doctor) dismissive stererotype of mostly women being on benzos. I think it would be important to show that many men take benzos, too (And boy, do they hide it from everyone).I recently watched the Elizabeth Vargas interview and her speaking about her problems with alcoholism. At one point, she wanted to tell her bosses that it was alcohol and ambien, because having an alcohol problem only seemed so un-feminine to her. Since the guys are supposed to be tough, and a guy with a beer bottle looks much more self-assured than the guy with a benzo bottle, I think it is important that men speak about this and to recognize the benzo problem as occurring to both genders, equally. A guy with a benzo bottle might feel un-masculine, compared to his beer drinking counterpart.

 

May as well show a commercial of a War Vet with PTSD and showing how the guy fought off enemy fire and saved his troops' lives, only to show him sweaty, shaky and chained to a tiny white pill he's trying to get off of. I think this man said it so well

 

 

LF, you nailed it.  The imagery should show all victims of prescription benzos except what some of us believe are the "classic" addicts...you know, "those" people.  But I'm engaging in some fantasy here.  To get from here to there starts with changing the messaging and signaling inside our community.  We've essentially neutered ourselves.

[[Ph...]]

Well that interdose withdrawl is upsetting for sure. That happens often on Ativan and xanax, and it is a great relief to get that next dose. I totally understand that.

 

Plenty of people have that problem. I was unusual in that I did take xanax, but only once a day. Never felt the need to take more. Slept fine. No problems. But I had a rough cross to K, and now have plenty of difficulties. Just too much messing up by doctors, and switching of generic brands. I have a very good doctor now thank goodness.

 

I’ve just not had any interdose withdrawals ever. Doing ok with my K taper, but another switch coming up. All these generic K discontinuations have affected many people here.

 

When I said that the BIC folks were not so happy, my meaning is that they were totally dissatisfied with the way it was handled. As in handled badly. It is not about making anybody “happy.”

 

I do know I’m in the majority as far as this problem of benzos being a dependency. Most people here do think that. It’s not just their opinion. Most here come to this forum knowing very little about benzos if even anything. They learn as they go. And this is what they learn.

 

Personally, I never thought much about either way. I’ve just wanted off, and that’s it. But I’ve learned that “addiction language” tends to put one in a category that is not only inaccurate, but a place that most professionals healthcare folks want a person to go to a detox facility. I tend to think you did not want to do that yourself, and thus you didn’t do that.

 

Addicts can do very well in a detox setting. They simply have trouble with relapsing. The average relapse for alcoholics is @12 relapses before they truly work hard to get off and stay off.

 

So that’s the addiction picture. You weren’t like that at all from my understanding. So by my definition, you were not an addict. But you can call yourself whatever you want. It’s your right to do this.

 

This is a well reasoned response in a nice tone.  At least here, you seem to have taken off your flak jacket and climbed down from the bench.  To quote one of your statements:

 

"I do know I’m in the majority as far as this problem of benzos being a dependency. Most people here do think that. It’s not just their opinion. Most here come to this forum knowing very little about benzos if even anything. They learn as they go.  And this is what they learn."

 

Exactly correct.  You're in the majority and yes, they come here as bewildered, vulnerable blank slates and this what they learn.  That's the script.

 

And that's okay, really.  The problem isn't in here, it's out there.  I have to believe that doctors in general and psychiatrists and drug company types specifically were both threatened and pissed over the NBC piece.  The first time any salvo with a real punch was thrown in their direction.  The A-word with a bottle of Xanax on the screen threatens them, worries them and suggests to them that they will have to change the way they do business if this keeps up.

 

Use the D-word instead?  Sorry, but I just suppressed a laugh.

 

Active campaigners and others can learn something about fixing a problem from the Me Too movement, which over the past year decided to play hardball with their abusers...regardless of political affiliation (a real shocker).  Jerks lost their jobs.  Famous jerks, rich jerks, political jerks, previously invulnerable jerks.  All of them.  In less than a year the entire landscape has changed.  Only a fool will try to exploit a woman in the workplace now.  Think about this. 

 

This is what is GREAT about the NBC piece.  Celebrate that piece and push for more, just like it.  Fast.  And never, never, substitute the D-word for the A-word.  That's like telling Charlie Rose "It's okay, Charlie, you were just flirting."

 

And of course it IS about addiction.  Doctor-caused, doctor-enabled addiction.  Michael Behan had it right in 2005 and it's still right today.

 

I am not so sure that doctors will flinch all that much on the mention of benzo addiction, esp. Xanax addiction, as Xanax has been made the big villain for a long, long time. They are under no legal obligation to keep prescribing to benzo-addicted patients, even though they may have caused/enabled addiction. All the addiction language will do is shift doctors' prescribing practices, so instead of refilling an addicted patient's benzo prescriptions to allow for a safe taper, they will throw drugs such as Gabapentin, or neuroleptics or SSRI's or TCA's to "help" with withdrawal. I was actually told by a couple of psychiatrists and a family doctor that they no longer prescribe benzos (I have no way to verify those claims), but they still obviously prescribe many other psychiatric drugs. I was surely offered many, many Rx drugs, including Seroquel and Ambien to "aid" in getting off of benzos. Surely, this "non-addictive" medication called Seroquel can certainly halt benzo withdrawal on it's own, right....

 

Today, in 2018, a benzo-addicted patient may be either just flat out abandoned or be given a combo of doxepin for sleep, buspar for anxiety, Gabapentin for unknown reasons, maybe Remeron for sleep/depression, or maybe just an SSRI. I don't see how this will help. Forcing someone into a cold turkey situation.

 

I don't know, PhotobugSF. Maybe the addiction language with benzos could have been aggressively used in 2004/2005 when people were not on as many combinations and permutations of psychiatric drugs, but now doctors have so many pharmaceutical options to throw at a benzo withdrawal, and can pretend that they are helping their patients beat benzo addiction while prescribing meds that are of very questionable value in benzo wd. Only a benzo can replace a benzo.

 

If a patient can afford a psychiatrist who understands these drugs well and knows how to help, then maybe the language does not matter. But if addiction language ends up dispatching a patient in mortal danger to a detox center, that is horrible. Great for the detox center. Horrible for the patient.

 

The waters have been too muddied, and times when people were just on an AD or just on a benzo are long, long gone. Cocktails of medications are a norm today, rather than the exception, and things have gotten far more complicated. Many people ending up on 8 different meds (regular and psychiatric) to replace a benzo. And then "mission accomplished" by modern medicine. Benzo prescriptons are down by bridging people down to cocktails of z-drugs, AP's, AD's, anti-histamines, atypical AP's, anti-convulsants, bipolar drugs, beta blockers, high doses of blood pressure pills, etc.

 

Pretty soon, it will be "off your benzo? Got your Abilify yet??". A blown out GABA/Glutamate system isn't addiction. You could argue if there was an addiction or not based on how a person got there, but the end result is not. It's CNS damage. And other psychiatric drugs that doctors so love to prescribe will not help with that. In fact, I slightly "envy" people like Behan to an extent, because Ativan was most likely the only thing he had to contend with. It wasn't like today, where people wonder "Is Klonopin doing this to me, or is it Paxil, or Prozac, or Lithium or Seroquel, or Risperdal. Which one is making me sick?"

 

Also, fewer and fewer people are being started on a benzo these days. It's always an SSRI or an AP or a bipolar drug, and benzo is often given as a bridge to help the startup period for another drug. And then, the confuson ensues and a patient cannot get off of a benzo all of a sudden.

 

LF says: "Pretty soon, it will be "off your benzo? Got your Abilify yet??"

 

Oh yes, this is true.  It will be a game of wack a mole as long as they can run their commercials, send their salespeople to doctors offices and send money to the people who make the laws.  We should expect that.  But that's still no reason to give up.  Some of us here are afraid we're going to piss off our dealer on the street corner (a metaphor) and we're going to suffer.  Well, that's a pretty pathetic situation.