Brain damage? Or just down regulated gaba receptors?

[[sw...]]

Thanks much guys. Especially Tough nights.

 

I went to an RN who is a nutritionist also. She felt I had leaky guy and so had me buy this high price Glutamine supplement until "my gut seals up". Seems like everyone has a different take. And finding out who is "respected" is tough.

Then I started to try to understand the difference between Glutamine, Glutamic AcidGlutamate, L-Glutamine and Snake Oil.

 

Now, of course, anxiety was the reason I started on Benzos and it is a big problem now.

 

Oh...thanks for letting me rant.

 

swammi01

[[To...]]

swammi - i think most of us here have experienced that doctors/nurses are not very well informed about benzo w'd (for many reasons - clearly the pharm houses don't want this info to be widely shared for obvious reasons).  So I feel that they tend to look at our symptoms "individually" and not in the overall context of benzo w'd, you know? So yes, if you look at GI issues (and you are clueless about benzo w/d), then maybe you see "leaky gut".  Or if you see headaches and head pain, they see "migraines" or "tension headaches".  Or they begin testing for MS because the the symptoms seem to fit.  So many of us end up going down those paths with them.

 

I feel I have learned that if you take it back to the science of how benzos work in the first place, then you have a starting point.  And if you learn they down regulate the GABA receptors, a little more research leads you to the way GABA and Glutamate must be in balance.  That takes you to what happens if GABA is low.  What does Glutamate do if it's overwhelmingly out of balance with minimal GABA to keep it in check.  The research and facts are pretty straightforward as to what happens if your Glutamte is  unchecked (too high). 

 

And when you start to read that, which is simply factual, it reads like the laundry list of "Benzo WD symptoms"....

 

So for me, that's the place I started.  Try to get the GABA up, and the glutamate under control ...

I feel that's all that we have in our arsenal of tools...other than good mental health (meditation, exercise, etc - whatever your symptoms allow you to do and participate in). But based on what all i read, as long as your GABA is too low (and you heal), your Glutamate being out of control will cause your anxiety to proliferate (among other things).  Ugh...so if you already had anxiety, you REALLY need to add a glutamate problem to it 

 

Hope for good healing for you!

[[Su...]]

So, why not medications that lower glutamate? Memantine?

[[To...]]

perhaps it could be helpful - I have no deep knowledge of the exact science of how it works.  However:

Who would prescribe it? A doctor would accept that you have some kind of neuro problem (Alzheimer's etc?) and give it to you when they don't even admit that it's benzo's causing the problem?

Secondly, did you ever take a look at the side effects it causes? I think most people would opt to try to lower it naturally through diet, etc.

And last of all, it's not always that your glutamate is "too high"....it's that your GABA is too low and not enough to counteract the effects of the glutamate.  Your glutamate issue is "temporary" - so would these meds effect your glutamate production long term (even after you stopped taking it?) I'm not sure I'd take that chance with so much unknown...

 

Just my thoughts - I am not "qualified" in ANY way to give a REAL answer

[[Be...]]

Taking MS or Parkinson's medications for a temporary issue sounds bad all around. Don't ask me specifics (I don't know them), but its like using a bullet to kill a fly. Sure it may work, but you're going to have some nasty collateral damage. A doctor 99% wouldn't go for it anyways.

[[sw...]]

From what I’ve read...

 

Gaba is increased by taking benzos.  Gaba receptors get completely saturated.  Glutamate neurotransmitters increase in droves so the increased gaba won’t shut down your bodily systems.  Now you have a situation.  No calming working gaba receptors that are completely saturated, dying and useless, and too much excitatory glutamate that was overproduced to compensate for the benzo-induced gaba.

 

Glutamate neurotransmitters cause overactivity.  Anxiety and over-the-top reactions to everything ensues.  Your gaba receptors are limp and dead, just like an overwatered plant.  You stopped taking the benzos, i.e. stopped overwatering the plants, and now your gaba receptors need to grow back.  It takes a long time.  You have a trillion gaba receptors throughout your body.  They not only need to grow back, they need to mature.  They not only need to mature, they need to learn.  They not only need to learn, they each need to pair up with a glutamate neurotransmitter.  Once paired, they are paired for life.  Can you understand why this process takes years to complete?  Our bodies are miracles.  It’s amazing they can fix this shit.

 

Time staying away from meds, alcohol, supplements and other things that you force your brain and nerves to contend with is the only way out of this.  Genetics may play a role, but your body IS your genetics and can use them to your advantage. 

 

Put in the time and you will heal.

 

Sofa

 

 

Hey Sofa: I was reading your take on how the GABA receptors work. You mentioned that you believe that supplements are trouble for someone healing from Benzos. 3 weeks ago I was prescribed a Glutamine supplement to help with leaky gut. I quit it two weeks later because I was so anxious. But Because I am still in acute W/D, there are many reasons I could be anxious. Have any input?

 

By the way...I love your emoji! Or is that a pin cushion?

 

TommyB

[[Sc...]]

 

Time staying away from meds, alcohol, supplements and other things that you force your brain and nerves to contend with is the only way out of this.

 

Careful now, some of us were already on meds beforehand. As in SSRI's.

 

I'd like to reassure anyone observing this thread, member or not, that a lot of this, is purely speculative.

[[lo...]]

 

Time staying away from meds, alcohol, supplements and other things that you force your brain and nerves to contend with is the only way out of this.

 

 

Careful now, some of us were already on meds beforehand. As in SSRI's.

 

I'd like to reassure anyone observing this thread, member or not, that a lot of this, is purely speculative.

 

As someone who was on SSRIs for many years, I believe it is sensible advice however.  After all, these drugs also act on the neurotransmitters of the brain which then affects other neurotransmitters which then affect the hormones etc.  They create a chemical imbalance which is not really conducive to the brain recovering fully and so it isn't unreasonable to think they may hinder that recovery.  They may of course help some people to cope with some of the symptoms of withdrawal but that is a different matter.  From my own experience of being in the support groups for both classes of drugs, I would say that they are equally difficult to withdraw from and cause equally as much distress and pain to those who are adversely affected.

[[Sc...]]

 

Time staying away from meds, alcohol, supplements and other things that you force your brain and nerves to contend with is the only way out of this.

 

 

Careful now, some of us were already on meds beforehand. As in SSRI's.

 

I'd like to reassure anyone observing this thread, member or not, that a lot of this, is purely speculative.

 

As someone who was on SSRIs for many years, I believe it is sensible advice however.  After all, these drugs also act on the neurotransmitters of the brain which then affects other neurotransmitters which then affect the hormones etc.  They create a chemical imbalance which is not really conducive to the brain recovering fully and so it isn't unreasonable to think they may hinder that recovery.  They may of course help some people to cope with some of the symptoms of withdrawal but that is a different matter.

 

It is not sensible advice to suggest that people will not heal unless they stop their medication. That is complete recklessness.

[[To...]]

I don't think that was offered as "advice" per se.  It was an opinion (based on some researhch and deductions but opinion nonetheless).  I also feel that in the case of benzos (much like Ciprofloxacin and the like) that it is likely that those that are symptomatic will not heal totally without the medication eventually being stopped.  Many people can take benzos with no symptoms (and it may successfully manage their medical issues such as anxiety or pain, etc).  Others have horrendous symptoms - nothing in what I've researched leads me to believe that whatever damage is done to the CNS by benzos is going to resolve until the benzos are long gone from our bodies.  Again, just my opinion based on the research I have personally done.  Same with Cipro - that class of antibiotics wreaks havoc with the CNS is certain people - and yet heals many others with no adverse effects....and so people avoid them like the plague for that reason. 

 

I quite honestly don't know what to think about people who are stuck in tapers....ones where they feel they are so symptomatic they can't continue to cut and so they up their dose and "stabliize" (some of them - some never "stabilize"). I had the unfortunate experience of going CT from Valium (out of ignorance).  I often wonder if I had tapered and at some point had encountered the horrendous symptoms I had if I would have stopped cutting and waited, thinking/hoping it would get better so I could go forward.  Of all of the stories I encounter on here, the BB-ers I feel the most for are those who are caught in what I call "taper hell"...suspended and unable to get off due to symptoms etc.  Sigh. 

 

But I honestly feel that those of us who become symptomatic from benzos may not be able to heal completely until/if we are are benzo free (and maybe for very long periods of time until relief).  I believe with the help on these boards we will make it through to the "other side" and heal again...

[[Sc...]]

I completely agree, TN2451

 

This issue I'm taking here though - and I'm assuming this is what's been implied - is the suggestion that people who are off Benzo's, but on other CNS meds, will never recover from Benzo withdrawal.

 

That's a pretty dangerous thing to imply given how truly desperate for relief some of the people here are.

 

The last thing you want, is someone with a disorder such as schizophrenia, stopping their medication in an attempt to cure Benzo withdrawal.

[[lo...]]

I do not think anyone is giving reckless advice here.  We are all searching for answers and all we are doing is suggesting that all mind-altering drugs are problematic in some way, I don't think that is in dispute.  There are many still trying to recover after several years off benzos and it is understandable that we therefore look at the adverse effects of the other drugs we may also be taking.  The issue is far wider than simply benzodiazepines and includes all psychiatric drugs, the subject is discussed widely in many patient support groups and forums and I see no reason why it cannot also be discussed here.  Many of us have been on or are still on multiple drugs, one often being prescribed for the side effects of other drugs or indeed for withdrawal symptoms.  It is up to each of us to decide for ourselves what we think is the best course of action for ourselves.  When people are very protracted it is important that we explore every avenue and possibility for recovery. The SSRIs were marketed as being non-addictive and preferable to benzodiazepines and this was very lucrative for the drug companies, however, the evidence against SSRIs continues to grow and so we have to look at that very carefully. Someone with schizophrenia will already be very aware of the damage psychiatric drugs can do because antipsychotics also have devastating effects on the brain so I cannot imagine anyone with such a diagnosis will learn anything here that they do not know already.  I know of one benzo group which only accepts you as protracted if you are off all psychiatric drugs for 18 months, not just benzos so this is not just a view held by a few individuals on this forum.  The important thing is that we can discuss these issues freely.

[[Sc...]]

I do not think anyone is giving reckless advice here.  We are all searching for answers and all we are doing is suggesting that all mind-altering drugs are problematic in some way, I don't think that is in dispute.  There are many still trying to recover after several years off benzos and it is understandable that we therefore look at the adverse effects of the other drugs we may also be taking.  The issue is far wider than simply benzodiazepines and includes all psychiatric drugs, the subject is discussed widely in many patient support groups and forums and I see no reason why it cannot also be discussed here.  Many of us have been on or are still on multiple drugs, one often being prescribed for the side effects of other drugs or indeed for withdrawal symptoms.  It is up to each of us to decide for ourselves what we think is the best course of action for ourselves.  When people are very protracted it is important that we explore every avenue and possibility for recovery.

 

With all due respect, you are continually missing the point.

 

There is a post, that literally says "Staying away from meds..is the only way out of this."

 

...when there are literally success stories that completely contradict that.

[[am...]]

Yes, I don't agree with the no meds statement either. I take Pristiq (an AD) and I am almost fully healed at 17 months out. I have taken at least 5 or 6 different AD's over the years and none of them caused me any problem getting on or off of them. Kpin on the other hand totally torched my nervous system when I tapered off of it.

 

I am aware that some people get very sick from AD's too, but you can't make the blanket statement that if you are not off all meds you will not heal from benzo induced damage to our brains. Good healing everyone.   

[[lo...]]

I do not think anyone is giving reckless advice here.  We are all searching for answers and all we are doing is suggesting that all mind-altering drugs are problematic in some way, I don't think that is in dispute.  There are many still trying to recover after several years off benzos and it is understandable that we therefore look at the adverse effects of the other drugs we may also be taking.  The issue is far wider than simply benzodiazepines and includes all psychiatric drugs, the subject is discussed widely in many patient support groups and forums and I see no reason why it cannot also be discussed here.  Many of us have been on or are still on multiple drugs, one often being prescribed for the side effects of other drugs or indeed for withdrawal symptoms.  It is up to each of us to decide for ourselves what we think is the best course of action for ourselves.  When people are very protracted it is important that we explore every avenue and possibility for recovery.

 

With all due respect, you are continually missing the point.

 

There is a post, that literally says "Staying away from meds..is the only way out of this."

 

...when there are literally success stories that completely contradict that.

 

I am not really missing the point but we may be talking at cross-purposes.  I think the best chance the brain has of recovery from any of these drugs is to be off all mind-altering drugs.  I think that is just logical because they all create a chemical imbalance in the brain.  Now it may well be that the withdrawal symptoms from one drug can disappear whilst on another drug, I would not dispute that but at the end of the day the brain will still be in a state of imbalance which will cause other problems.  So perhaps it depends on the definition of recovery .. is it just the absence of specific withdrawal symptoms or is it allowing the brain to recover from a mind-altering drug and allowing it to return to its natural state.  I am not an expert, but I would have thought allowing our brains to fully recover would best be achieved by being off all drugs.  I am off all drugs and do not expect to fully recover because my body is damaged now ... I don't even know if my brain will recover, I suspect not, I was on the drugs for far too many years.  So I am not suggesting it is some wonderful panacea, but on balance, I think being drug free gives the brain the best chance of recovery in its widest sense. 

[[Be...]]

LookingForward - out of curiosity, how was your health pre benzo?

[[lo...]]

That was over 40 years ago.  I had obviously started having myoclonic jerks, the reason why I was prescribed a benzo in the first place.  I was a student, and had become depressed.  The benzo devastated my health within two months ... but I did not know it was the drug.  All a long time ago.  And who knows what caused the jerks, stress probably.  I have never had any other major health problems, just depression which was probably drug side effects.  I still do not have any other major health problems to my knowledge.  Even years of IBS was caused by my spine pressing on nerves leading to the gut. 

[[Be...]]

That was over 40 years ago.  I had obviously started having myoclonic jerks, the reason why I was prescribed a benzo in the first place.  I was a student, and had become depressed.  The benzo devastated my health within two months ... but I did not know it was the drug.  All a long time ago.  And who knows what caused the jerks, stress probably.  I have never had any other major health problems, just depression which was probably drug side effects.  I still do not have any other major health problems to my knowledge.  Even years of IBS was caused by my spine pressing on nerves leading to the gut.

Sorry to hear all that. I agree with what you're saying as well regarding this thread.

 

I'm a fan of how you set your expectations low, that way you can never be disappointed and can only exceed them.

[[lo...]]

That was over 40 years ago.  I had obviously started having myoclonic jerks, the reason why I was prescribed a benzo in the first place.  I was a student, and had become depressed.  The benzo devastated my health within two months ... but I did not know it was the drug.  All a long time ago.  And who knows what caused the jerks, stress probably.  I have never had any other major health problems, just depression which was probably drug side effects.  I still do not have any other major health problems to my knowledge.  Even years of IBS was caused by my spine pressing on nerves leading to the gut.

Sorry to hear all that. I agree with what you're saying as well regarding this thread.

 

I'm a fan of how you set your expectations low, that way you can never be disappointed and can only exceed them.

 

Thank you very much.  I did have higher expectations in the first 2-3 years, now I think I have a more realistic outlook which is fine,  I just plod along hoping to see improvements and they do keep happening.  I am 5 years off the benzo, three years off all drugs, so who knows what the next few years will bring.