Discussions on Philosophy Group

[[Ha...]]

Hi Photobug, honor to chat!! Love this kind of "stuff" 

Emergent properties of complex systems?  That's the what, but I'd love to know the how or even the why.  So interesting!  I suppose there are implications here for how life itself "emerged" from the primordial soup...reducing from an infinite number of possibilities the one possibility that actually worked!

".....the math of complexity theory reveals that all complex systems have emergent properties, processes that arise from the flow of the system’s elements across time. So math—a form of science revealing aspects of reality—suggests that one of those emergent properties is self-organization.  This is where a process arises from the elements of the system and then turns back and regulates that from which it arose. That’s called recursvity, how there is a positive feedback loop reinforcing itself over time." Daniel J. Siegel M.D. Post from Psychology Today, 17 March, 2014

 

Wouldn't we all love to know the how or why? But are we not limiting things by rationalizing?  I have a "gut" instinct one word which (may or may not?) goes somewhere toward an explanation of at least the"how"... "Autopoiesis"?  Harmonee

 

[[az...]]

Hi Photobug, honor to chat!! Love this kind of "stuff" 

Emergent properties of complex systems?  That's the what, but I'd love to know the how or even the why.  So interesting!  I suppose there are implications here for how life itself "emerged" from the primordial soup...reducing from an infinite number of possibilities the one possibility that actually worked!

".....the math of complexity theory reveals that all complex systems have emergent properties, processes that arise from the flow of the system’s elements across time. So math—a form of science revealing aspects of reality—suggests that one of those emergent properties is self-organization.  This is where a process arises from the elements of the system and then turns back and regulates that from which it arose. That’s called recursvity, how there is a positive feedback loop reinforcing itself over time." Daniel J. Siegel M.D. Post from Psychology Today, 17 March, 2014

 

Wouldn't we all love to know the how or why? But are we not limiting things by rationalizing?  I have a "gut" instinct one word which (may or may not?) goes somewhere toward an explanation of at least the"how"... "Autopoiesis"?  Harmonee

 

 

This; these posts. Thanks guys!

[[re...]]

This looks like a really interesting thread... COOL... 

[[Ph...]]

Hi Photobug, honor to chat!! Love this kind of "stuff" 

Emergent properties of complex systems?  That's the what, but I'd love to know the how or even the why.  So interesting!  I suppose there are implications here for how life itself "emerged" from the primordial soup...reducing from an infinite number of possibilities the one possibility that actually worked!

".....the math of complexity theory reveals that all complex systems have emergent properties, processes that arise from the flow of the system’s elements across time. So math—a form of science revealing aspects of reality—suggests that one of those emergent properties is self-organization.  This is where a process arises from the elements of the system and then turns back and regulates that from which it arose. That’s called recursvity, how there is a positive feedback loop reinforcing itself over time." Daniel J. Siegel M.D. Post from Psychology Today, 17 March, 2014

 

Wouldn't we all love to know the how or why? But are we not limiting things by rationalizing?  I have a "gut" instinct one word which (may or may not?) goes somewhere toward an explanation of at least the"how"... "Autopoiesis"?  Harmonee

 

Autopoiesis still seems to me to be in the realm of "what" rather than "how."  It defines a self-replicating and self-maintaining form of matter.  But for the how...how Autopoiesis (life precursors) emerged from a chaotic soup...something happened.  There are a couple of exotic schools of thought on the subject; one being that self-organization is an inevitable by-product of entropy (molecules' efforts to dissipate heat by clumping together in organized ways...think snowflakes) and another being that quantum effects in unique environments such as undersea vents functioned in ways similar to quantum computers (testing all possible combinations of molecules in the same way future quantum computers will unlock your on-line bank account nearly instantly).  Try these articles on for size and see how they feel:

 

https://www.quantamagazine.org/a-new-thermodynamics-theory-of-the-origin-of-life-20140122/

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/3318643/Quantum-genesis-How-life-was-born-on-Earth.html

 

Thoughts?

[[Ha...]]

WOW PhotoBug!! Will take me quite sometime to go anywhere near digesting all that! VERY interesting reading! Have always been very interested in this kind of thing (at least trying to get my head (anywhere near around such). All started (if I recall?) with James Lovelock's Gaia hypothesis (I know a millennia away from quibits!)

 

In 1997, Tyler Volk argued that a Gaian system is almost inevitably produced as a result of an evolution towards far-from-equilibrium homeostatic states that maximise entropy production, and Kleidon (2004) agreed stating:

"...homeostatic behavior can emerge from a state of MEP associated with the planetary albedo"; "...the resulting behavior of a biotic Earth at a state of MEP may well lead to near-homeostatic behavior of the Earth system on long Gaia hypothesis 12 time scales, as stated by the Gaia hypothesis." Staley (2002) has similarly proposed "...an alternative form of Gaia theory based on more traditional Darwinian principles... In [this] new approach, environmental regulation is a consequence of population dynamics, not Darwinian selection. The role of selection is to favor organisms that are best adapted to prevailing environmental conditions. However, the environment is not a static backdrop for evolution, but is heavily influenced by the presence of living organisms. The resulting co-evolving dynamical process eventually leads to the convergence of equilibrium and optimal conditions. (Source https://courses.seas.harvard.edu/climate/eli/Courses/EPS281r/Sources/Gaia/Gaia-hypothesis-wikipedia.pdf

 

"Thought this might interest you too? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILSyt_Hhbjg

[[Ph...]]

WOW PhotoBug!! Will take me quite sometime to go anywhere near digesting all that! VERY interesting reading! Have always been very interested in this kind of thing (at least trying to get my head (anywhere near around such). All started (if I recall?) with James Lovelock's Gaia hypothesis (I know a millennia away from quibits!)

 

In 1997, Tyler Volk argued that a Gaian system is almost inevitably produced as a result of an evolution towards far-from-equilibrium homeostatic states that maximise entropy production, and Kleidon (2004) agreed stating:

"...homeostatic behavior can emerge from a state of MEP associated with the planetary albedo"; "...the resulting behavior of a biotic Earth at a state of MEP may well lead to near-homeostatic behavior of the Earth system on long Gaia hypothesis 12 time scales, as stated by the Gaia hypothesis." Staley (2002) has similarly proposed "...an alternative form of Gaia theory based on more traditional Darwinian principles... In [this] new approach, environmental regulation is a consequence of population dynamics, not Darwinian selection. The role of selection is to favor organisms that are best adapted to prevailing environmental conditions. However, the environment is not a static backdrop for evolution, but is heavily influenced by the presence of living organisms. The resulting co-evolving dynamical process eventually leads to the convergence of equilibrium and optimal conditions. (Source https://courses.seas.harvard.edu/climate/eli/Courses/EPS281r/Sources/Gaia/Gaia-hypothesis-wikipedia.pdf

 

"Thought this might interest you too? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILSyt_Hhbjg

 

Hmmm, so the entropy-leads-to-organization angle has been explored before.  Well, let's see where it leads.  And yeah, I can buy into the alternative form of Gaia theory that incorporates Darwin.  The migration of Krill toward the surface of the oceans at night to feed has been shown to affect climate, and climate affects Krill and everything else, including evolution.  So yes, a recursive cycle.  The guy with the magic memory water, hmmm, not so much.  Watched the video plus a few more, read some critiques of the process, etc.  Looked for independent verification.  Not ready to buy.  But back to the genesis of life...this whole subject is fascinating to me.  The creation of a functioning RNA molecule alone without some kind of organizing process just seems so off-the-charts impossible.  I can't believe it was dumb luck or an accident.  Drilling down into Europa's ocean and seeing if there's something swimming around will shed a lot of light on this, I think.  Holy crap what a discovery that will be if it happens.  It will change everything.

[[Ha...]]

Hi PhotoBug  YES! Isn't the genesis of life amazing!!! Most likely I'll be pushing up daisies long before any of this is (if ever) understood. Lol, re. magic water guy, I hadn't looked into the research any deeper (no pun intended)  Thought the river (after collecting and distributing information into the ocean) seemed somewhat an interesting concept. I mean in the way of a correlation that "information" to date is considered impossible to escape a black hole (Hawkins information paradox). So it's possible the information is duplicated, one inside the black hole, and the other on the "outside", the observers "side"? Just coming from an interested observer's view here, so please excuse my ignorance 

 

Dan Siegel sums things up well (perhaps I'm in love with the guy and a tad biased though?) in this short clip

BTW, lol, I'm not pushing his book "Mind", I just find this guy's work so fascinating!

 

As far as the Krill go, that is amazing!!!  You most likely have already read this, but thought I'd post a link, it's a fascinating recent article from Stamford researchers https://news.stanford.edu/press-releases/2018/04/18/swarms-of-tiny-ourn-ocean-waters/

[[Ph...]]

Hi PhotoBug  YES! Isn't the genesis of life amazing!!! Most likely I'll be pushing up daisies long before any of this is (if ever) understood. Lol, re. magic water guy, I hadn't looked into the research any deeper (no pun intended)  Thought the river (after collecting and distributing information into the ocean) seemed somewhat an interesting concept. I mean in the way of a correlation that "information" to date is considered impossible to escape a black hole (Hawkins information paradox). So it's possible the information is duplicated, one inside the black hole, and the other on the "outside", the observers "side"? Just coming from an interested observer's view here, so please excuse my ignorance 

 

Dan Siegel sums things up well (perhaps I'm in love with the guy and a tad biased though?) in this short clip

BTW, lol, I'm not pushing his book "Mind", I just find this guy's work so fascinating!

 

As far as the Krill go, that is amazing!!!  You most likely have already read this, but thought I'd post a link, it's a fascinating recent article from Stamford researchers https://news.stanford.edu/press-releases/2018/04/18/swarms-of-tiny-ourn-ocean-waters/

 

Yep, Harmonee, familiar with that Stanford study, in fact that's where I learned about the Krill effect in the first place.  Nothing exists in isolation.  Watched the Siegel clip.  The debate about whether or not time actually "flows" or is just a human mental construct is ongoing.  (I'm more of a flow guy although I admit to some bias.)  I liked his comments about the mind operating at least in part at a quantum level.  Why not?  If it works in an LED light bulb, then why not in the brain?  Why not in any organ or organism?  We know now that photosynthesis itself - which converts sunlight to energy instantly and at 100% efficiency - is a quantum effect.  And black holes, Hawking radiation, information, the infinite curvature of space-time?  Holy cow, don't get me started...I love that stuff!  Gotta run, quanta aside, I still need to pay the bills.  More later, enjoying your ideas, thank you for your posts and replies!