Thanks for -- "Create Your Own Taper Plan" by Jim Hawk

[[Ch...]]

Hi Ch33kyKK

 

Can you show me.how.that looks?

 

Take some time to have a look here. When everything is clear and no more questions needed, go here.

 

All the best!

 

Thanks Jim.  I'll give it a look.  I really appreciate your help.

[[de...]]

Hi again, JH

 

Would you mind reviewing the following for any errors in thinking or missing components? 

 

Example:  DLMT of Xanax 0.5mg dose

[*]Dissolve 5 of the Xanax 0.5mg tablets (for total 2.5mg) in 5ml of 90 proof (45% alc.) vodka, at room temp overnight.

[*]Add 20ml water to make 25ml solution of 0.1mg/ml concentration, then store solution in capped jar at room temp to use over 10-14 days.

[*]If using reduction rate of 5% and reduction frequency of 14 days:  0.5mg dose * 5% = 0.025mg / 14 days = 0.00179, round that up to 0.002mg, and reduce 0.002mg per day over 14 days.

[*]Then at end of 14-day period, just assuming here for calculations that we've reduced the dose to 0.475mg (5% cut from 0.5mg), recalculate from 0.475mg using 5-10% reduction over 10-14 days.

I've checked this against your Taper Plan program, so I think my math is okay, but if I haven't considered some non-math aspect of how to do this, would appreciate your pointing that out.  Thank you! 

[[Ji...]]

Hi delta1,

 

round that up to 0.002mg, and reduce 0.002mg per day over 14 days.

 

1. My feeling is that although you have chosen to go liquid, your thinking pattern still remains with direct taper. I humbly believe that after the solution has been prepared and ready to be consumed, all your doses must be referred to as ml instead of mg. There is no need to round up anything but to draw up the right amount of solution that is diluted enough to reflect even the smallest dose of benzo. This is the strong point that makes liquid taper prevail over others.

 

2. Any reason why cut & hold and not daily reduction?

 

[[de...]]

JH,

 

1.  Well, I didn't spell out the "ml" part because was in a hurry but here it is:

 

3.5 - To reduce .002mg per day over 14 days, remove .02ml per day:
      day 1  .5mg - .002 = .498mg     take half tablet (.25mg) + .248mg in liquid, which would be 2.48ml 
      day 2  .498 - .002 = .496       take half tablet (.25mg) + 2.46ml
      day 3  .496 - .002 = .494       take half tablet (.25mg) + 2.44ml
      … and so on

 

And using .02ml increments because on 1ml syringe, .02ml is smallest I can read.

 

2.  Cut and hold too rough, looking for alternatives to that. 

 

Okay now?    Thanks, JH 

[[Ji...]]

Hi delta1

 

See my comments directly from the input panel:

 

 

In addition:

 

- In your figures the driving factor is the rounded up .002 mg from the initial 0.025 mg/14 days.

 

- In the calculation proposed, the driving factor is the initial 0.025 mg/14 days. Nothing rounded.

 

 

 

[[de...]]

JH, I think what you're saying is that .01mg/ml concentration will allow for more precise liquid dose than the .1mg/ml conc, is that what you mean?

 

So for example:

 

                    with .1mg/ml                with .01mg/ml

      day 1      half tablet + 2.48ml      half tablet + 24.82ml

      day 2      half tablet + 2.46ml      half tablet + 24.63ml

      day 3      half tablet + 2.45ml      half tablet + 24.45ml

 

And this matters especially as you go lower in your doses. 

[[Ji...]]

Hi delta1 ,

 

The concentration point is one and you have got it right!

 

The other point is that you don't need to round up anything. You just enter in the application the quantity 0.025 for 14 days and you have the precise list of doses you mum is going to take every single day until the end. Unless you have a particular sympathy for the rounded value of .002, why must you divide and round up first?  What would be the added value of this operation?

 

[[de...]]

Hi delta1 ,

 

The concentration point is one and you have got it right!

 

The other point is that you don't need to round up anything. You just enter in the application the quantity 0.025 for 14 days and you have the precise list of doses you mum is going to take every single day until the end. Unless you have a particular sympathy for the rounded value of .002, why must you divide and round up first?  What would be the added value of this operation?

 

 

Jimbo

 

Not any favoritism for rounded value of .002, I plug in all the values that you use, and only use .002mg/d to get to .02ml to be reduced per day, because .02ml is the smallest increment I can read on 1ml syringe (on Becton-Dickinson syringe that I have, unlike some German ones I see on Internet that have increments of .01ml).

 

The quantity .025mg, did you know that the Taper Plan program won't let me enter that?  When I enter 5.00 as the Percent, the Quantity lights up in grey as .03 and won't let me change it.  But anyway, I understand what's going on, in this scenario at least, so it's okay. 

 

Thank as always

[[Ji...]]

Hi delta1

 

.025mg, did you know that the Taper Plan program won't let me enter that?

 

Try to not enter anything in the percent field. Do not touch that field! Go directly to the (or) quantity field and enter 0.025 . It must work. It will. And it triggers the calculation "Fixed Quantity Reduction" as opposed to "Fixed Percent Reduction".

 

I understand what's going on

You will understand...better

 

[[de...]]

Hi delta1

 

.025mg, did you know that the Taper Plan program won't let me enter that?

 

Try to not enter anything in the percent field. Do not touch that field! Go directly to the (or) quantity field and enter 0.025 . It must work. It will. And it triggers the calculation "Fixed Quantity Reduction" as opposed to "Fixed Percent Reduction".

 

Got it, it worked!  Thanks so much, JH 

[[fe...]]

Am I the only one having trouble accessing the "taper plan"?  It won't load.  Please help.  I am trying to start my taper form .125mg/nightly of Klonopin.

 

[[Ji...]]

Hi FOTU 

 

Try http://bzo.spes-lavaux.ch

 

[[fe...]]

Hi Jim, I have tried it endlessly and not sure why I am th only one to encounter this.  My husband can’t open it either so perhaps something on our end. Please help me with this tapering.

I started the titration last night with my dose of .125mg of Klonopin. I added my dissolving tablet to 100ml of water and shook it very well.  I then removed 5 ml with a syringe and disposed it and drank the 95 ml. Plan was to start off with 5% every 14 days.

However, after reading some of your posts it sounds like I did this wrong.  Am I to remove .5 ml or 1ml per night instead until I reach the 5ml (my 5%)? Or do I keep removing 5 ml per night for 14 days and drinking the remaining 95ml of titration? 

Thank you Jim for all your help.

[[Ji...]]

Hi FOTU

 

perhaps something on our end

Is it your firewall that blocked? Ask a friend to try from his house.

 

Here is the Help file

 

I started the titration last night with my dose of .125mg of Klonopin.

Great!

 

I added my dissolving tablet to 100ml of water and shook it very well

Clonazepam DOES NOT DISSOLVE in water! You ought to choose a solvent to dissolve your benzo BEFORE adding water. Likely what you drank did not contain enough benzo and you will feel symptoms within 1-2 days. Please take some time to go through the Help file.

 

I then removed 5 ml with a syringe and disposed it and drank the 95 ml.

Humm! Please read the Help file!

 

Plan was to start off with 5% every 14 days.

Great!

 

do I keep removing 5 ml per night for 14 days and drinking the remaining 95ml of titration? 

What you are doing is the so called Cut & Hold as opposed to daily reduction. Have a look in the Help file to take an informed decision.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[[fe...]]

Thank you Jim! I can't thank you enough in guiding me.

I able to get into your Taper Plan link! Yay! But here is my questions for it is making me feel overwhelmed in proceeding with the titration method (which I believe will give me better success).  I have the .125mg Dissolveable Clonozapam tablet.  You state water is not good.  So I will do vodka.

However, all these entries/comments are confusing me on this site because they are making reference to 1mg of Klonopin when I am on .125mg per night.

My questions are:  What is the appropriate ml amount to dissolve it with vodka (I am doing a 10% reduction every 21 days)? If I go with 12 ml of liquid, do I do 1 ml of vodka and 11 ml of water for a .125mg wafer?

[[Ji...]]

Hi FOTU 

 

I have the .125mg Dissolveable Clonozapam tablet.. What is the appropriate ml amount to dissolve it with vodka

- 8 tablets of .125mg dissolvable Clonozapam. Total: 1mg

- 2 ml of 45% alcohol (90 proof) Vodka to dissolve the above benzo quantity

- 98 ml of water to add after benzo completely dissolved.

Total: 100 ml of solution with .01 mg/ml benzo concentration.

 

Keep in a capped jar for multiple days use. When finished, prepare a new batch using the same formula. Can be prepared for 10-14 days use.

 

With an appropriate syringe you draw up the daily dose like you would do with any liquid medication from pharmacy. Do not discard anything.

 

[[fe...]]

Thanks Jim, last questions..I promise. 

1. When I go in to your Taper Calculator, do I enter 100 ml (in the liquid solution entry) versus the 12ml I had initially done so it can give me the  correct daily dosage?

2. Do I have to shake the jar (solution) every day before withdrawing my dosage?

3. It sounds like I will be ingesting more than I normally would if I was dissolving just 1 tablet per solution daily (being that I now have 8 tablets in this jar). 

 

Gosh, this is not simple for me to understand even though you are outlining it for me. (And at one time in college I was a pharmacy major).  Whew, glad I didn't choose that route.

[[Ji...]]

Hi FOTU ,

last questions..I promise.

I don't mind.

 

When I go in to your Taper Calculator, do I enter 100 ml (in the liquid solution entry) versus the 12ml I had initially done so it can give me the  correct daily dosage?

YES! Enter 100 ml!

 

Do I have to shake the jar (solution) every day before withdrawing my dosage?

A tablet is composed of excipients and active ingredients. Excipients are materials necessary to build the tablet like bricks, concrete do with a house. In our case they are coating material, binder or other components necessary to the manufacturing process and  to give the tablet the form and the size of it. The active ingredient, benzo in our case, usually takes a very tiny volume in the whole picture. Perhaps less than 5%. When dissolved, benzo "disappeared" in the solution but excipients may remain in minuscule particles. They do not mean that benzo still has to be further dissolved. It may but definitely irrelevant from a therapeutic viewpoint. Nevertheless it is a common practice to shake the jar before use to uniformly distribute everything before drawing up the dose.

 

It sounds like I will be ingesting more than I normally would if I was dissolving just 1 tablet per solution daily (being that I now have 8 tablets in this jar).

Whatever way you have prepared your solution (12.5 ml with 1 tablet or 100 ml with 8 tablets) you will draw ONLY the dose you need. You MUST NOT drink the totality of the solution you have produced as in the case of 1 tablet. The daily dose reduction is indeed the base of a taper and every day you will draw up a smaller quantity. The rest in the jar will be there to serve the next doses.

 

Hope it helps.