Total serotonin depletion--why can you take SSRIs but not 5HTP or L-tryp

[[...]]

Hi:

 

I know you said that you don't want anecdotes so feel free to ignore this:  My doc, a mainstream MD psychiatrist, suggested that I take 5-HTP so the idea that we shouldn't take it is by no means universal.

 

ntw

[[am...]]

Thanks for the link - but be careful as that is about HYPOGLYCEMIA not depression.  I understand that our serotonin levels are low and we may even show signs of Hypoglycemia, but the reason we are in a depression is because of benzo withdrawal.

 

Thanks for the warning,  did you read the article? the first 10 points clearly relate to, if not add more detail to,  what you were saying about SEROTONIN.  I've cut out the latter points to avoid any confusion.

 

 

 

---

THE SEROTONIN CONNECTION

By Jurriaan Plesman, BA(Psych), Post Grad Dip Clin Nutr

 

I will attempt to describe briefly The Serotonin Connection as a sequence of psychological and biochemical events in the development of emotional disorders. Most of the statements below can be verified by scientific studies, but some are still controversial, especially the relationship between insulin resistance and absorption of amino acids. Much research needs to be done in this area. The events appear to follow a predetermined sequence as follows;

 

1) An extended period of physical or psychological stress, will produce stress hormones such as cortisol and adrenaline, that can interfere with the synthesis of the brain neurotransmitter, Serotonin.

 

2) A neurotransmitter is any one of numerous chemicals that occupy the gap (synapse) between two or more nerve cells (neurons) and thereby allows the triggering of a tiny electrical currents in adjacent cells. Each neurotransmitter fits into a unique receptor - like a key fitting into a lock - thus allowing messages to be carried along nerve pathways. See Figure 1

 

http://www.hypoglycemia.asn.au/articles/SerotoninConnection1.gif

 

3) Serotonin is a neurotransmitter that conveys the positive sensations of satiety, satisfaction and relaxation. It regulates appetite and when converted to melatonin helps us to sleep.

 

4) A deficiency of Serotonin in the brain can cause endogenous depression, upsets the appetite mechanism and may lead to obesity or other eating disorders such as anorexia and bulimia nervosa and may be responsible for insomnia. Doctors usually prescribe Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors (SSRIs) which have the effects of increasing the amount Serotonin and thereby medically treat the above conditions. Unfortunately, SSRIs may have side effects in some patients, and generally do not address the underlying biochemical causes of depression.

 

5) Serotonin is produced from an essential amino acid (protein unit), called tryptophan, obtained from food and then converted to Serotonin under the influence of vitamin B6 (Pyridoxine) and magnesium. “Essential” amino acids are sources of protein, that the body cannot produce and must obtain from food!

 

6) If there is a deficiency of vitamin B3 (niacin),the body will use dietary tryptophan to synthesize niacin. It takes 60 mg of tryptophan to produce 1 mg of niacin. Hence, niacin deficiency may also be responsible for depression.

 

7) The absorption of tryptophan competes with the absorption of other amino acids in the digestive process.

 

The absorption of tryptophan can be accelerated by consuming refined carbohydrates, such as sugar.

 

9) Sugar consumption stimulates the body to produce insulin, a hormone which transports glucose, fatty acids and amino acids (except tryptophan) into body cells. Thus insulin speeds up the absorption of amino acids other than tryptophan.

 

10) This leaves tryptophan available for absorption and conversion to Serotonin (via 5-hydroxytryptophan, 5-HTP) in the presence of vitamin B6 and magnesium, and presto we feel happy.

 

---

 

 

The above aside, could you cite the sources you found stating that

 

5-HTP {doesn't} cross the blood brain barrier however it does get metabolized as serotonin which does cross the blood brain barrier

 

It seems to be at odds with my sources.

 

http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayFulltext?type=1&fid=678284&jid=PNS&volumeId=46&issueId=01&aid=678276

 

Similarly, I think something that we should be very wary of is assuming the following:

 

SSRI's do cross the blood brain barrier and they do attempt to regulate serotonin levels (which cannot be tested by accepted methods in today's medicine).  We know the levels are low because, well- because we feel like death and in fact we may even welcome it at times

 

 

 

I don't believe for one second that we canknow that serotonin levels are low simply because we feel rotten.  There could be any one of myriad reasons, from nutritional deficits to infection to good old fashioned sadness, causing us to feel sub-par.  Simply assuming X because of Y is exactly the same twisted logic psychiatry applies when poly drugging people based on an untested "chemical imbalance".

 

 

If you claim the above quote to be true, do you also put stock in the theory of chemical imbalance being at the root of many mental "disorders".

 

 

Could you for the sake of clarity, please add a little more to your claims.

 

It is a little confusing for me as it stands.

 

 

Thanks

 

 

 

 

 

 

[[zi...]]

Amano,

 

I did read the article - However I lost faith when the Post Grad student failed to get the synthesis of Serotonin correct.  It's tryptophan --> 5 HTP --> Serotonin.  Besides the point that I'm not sure why I'm reading an article on Hypoglycemia??  

 

I'm not sure what your looking for?  If you are looking for a pissing war between who is right and who is wrong.  We are both wrong as these are theories and nothing can be proven other than vitamin deficiencies.  Even then, those are not completely correct and just because you have a low Vit B level doesn't mean you are going to have depression issues.  Nearly everyone who has gone through benzo withdrawal, whether it was protracted or not has experienced depression.  Was it because they just got the crap beat out of them, or because their mind went places it has never been before, or are they depressed because they lost their job, friends or family.   Any one of these factors can make a person depressed, and add a few of them together you have major depression.  Have you ever noticed that in a window you still are kind of depressed?  I know for me that the more I come out of the fog, the more I realize what a cluster it was that I just went through and all of the work I have ahead of me to put my life back together.  It took a lot out of me, as it did many of us.  If you don't have depression please send me some of your blood, because you would be a genetic freak and perhaps I could use it as a cure.  (kidding)

 

 

What we do know is that majority of people with depression happen to have low Vit B and D levels.  THIS IS A FACT - TALK TO ANY DRUG AND ALCOHOL RN or PSYCHIATRIST

 

What we also know is that the synthesis for serotonin is as follows:  tryptophan - > 5HTP - > serotonin.   NOT Tryptophan --> Serotonin as your article states in points 1 - 9 , except however in point 10 they sort of clear it up but not really.  This is where I lost faith.

 

We also know that if we don't have enough Vit B-6 in our blood stream then 5HTP will have a very difficult time converting over to Serotonin. Which, is still a theory with no scientific proof except for how it is synthesized inside of the body.  Most internal studies that have been done have been on the clinical side, but again the funding for this has been very minimal.  You can however prove the synthesis OUTSIDE of the body in a lab.

 

Bottom line is - If you feel that you are depressed, and your doctors tell you that you are depressed and you are going through a benzo withdrawal then more than likely it is a Vitamin deficiency along with the psychological torment that you just endured (I'm sure there are life situations too that we are all dealing with).  I have seen countless cases of Vit B and Vit D being deficient in almost all benzo / alcohol users.  Once these levels get restored, then you can most likely take 5-HTP or L-tryptophan for a short period without having to worry about going on an SSRI that will eventually deplete the serotonin levels all over again.

 

SSRI's don't just affect the brain.   They attempt to regulate the blood sugar levels amongst many other things.  That is why so many of us who have depression also crave sweets and caffeine.  It's like we are stimulant junkies.  Over time the constant up and down can lead to diabetes.  (Find the research on your own)  But the point is - if you can abstain from stimulants and sweets for a few months while you clean up your diet and nutrition then you most likely will not even need an SSRI.  

 

From what I've found is that our only job is to take care of ourselves.  That includes taking in the proper fuel for your mind and body (nutrition is key) and a healthy amount of cardio and weight training helps to get your cardiovascular system normalized.  Plenty of rest and a very healthy sleep hygiene is a must.  Try not to isolate - give yourself a break from the computer and cyberspace by doing human things in the real world.

 

-I'll leave this as my last post to this question as I'm sure you will want to follow it up with your take on the topic by proving me wrong or creating holes in my argument... so have fun!

 

 

 

 

Ziggy

[[Mi...]]

Let's take it ouside, boys