How kindling affects benzo withdrawl..it's rough

[Guest [Si...]]

I was on Ativan for a while, and stopped taking it with no withdrawal.

Unless I had withdrawal, and didn't know it, but I don't think so.

 

I really don't know what to make of the kindling.

 

I agree, there are people who reinstate and then taper off with less problems.

 

My first time tackling Klonopin was much worse than this second time, but of course I crossed to Valium.

 

I guess we all have our own idea or theory about it.

 

This seems like hogwash, many people reinstate and go on to successfully taper.

 

I agree.

 

S#

[[ro...]]

I have a question about this rekindling stuff:

 

If you only took the benzo periodically but experienced interdosing withdrawals and continued taking the benzo on an irregular basis -- would that be rekindling? 

 

How about for the Z drugs?  I quit and resumed Lunesta 4 times within 7 months, and quit Ambien once before in 2008, and later in the year started taking it again.  Is that rekindling? 

 

Would like to hear others' thoughts on this hot topic called "kindling." 

 

Thanks,

Roxko

[[...]]

This kindling idea flies in the face of reinstating doesn't it?  It almost suggests that if you begin the process of withdrawal then return to medicating before it is complete that you will guarantee the next withdrawal will be worse.  This seems like hogwash, many people reinstate and go on to successfully taper.

 

Yes, many people reinstate and go on to successfully taper and many people also experience a kindling effect.  It is invalidating to people who have experienced this phenomenon to say it is hogwash.  I also experience the kindling effect after starting and stopping an a/d several times.  The first time I stopped taking Effexor c/t, I had no withdrawal symptoms whatsoever.  The second time I tapered and experienced some withdrawal.  The third time I tapered, as well, and had severe withdrawal symptoms for 30 days after my last dose.

 

Please don't discount what others have experienced. 

[[BY...]]

Very informative. I never fully understood kindling.

 

Kindling (sedative-hypnotic withdrawal)

 

Kindling due to substance withdrawal, refers to the neurological condition which results from repeated withdrawal episodes from sedative-hypnotic drugs such as alcohol or benzodiazepines. Each withdrawal leads to more severe withdrawal symptoms than the first withdrawal syndrome. Individuals who have had more withdrawal episodes are at an increased risk of very severe withdrawal symptoms, up to and including seizures. Withdrawal from GABAergic acting sedative-hypnotic drugs causes acute GABA-under-activity as well as glutamate over-activity which can lead to sensitization and hyper-excitability of the central nervous system, excito-neurotoxicity and increasingly profound neuroadaptions.

 

 

Definition

Kindling is the phenomenon which occurs as a result of repeated withdrawal from benzodiazepines or alcohol that leads to increasingly severe withdrawal symptoms, including an increased risk of seizures. Ethanol (alcohol), has a very similar mechanism of tolerance and withdrawal as benzodiazepines, involving the GABAA receptors, NMDA receptors and AMPA receptors; these receptors are involved in kindling. The research into kindling, a phenomenon which results in increased sensitivity of the nervous system due to multiple acute withdrawals with for example increased seizures, has primarily focused on alcohol.[1]

 

Causes

Adaptational changes at the GABAA benzodiazepine receptor complex do not fully explain tolerance, dependence and withdrawal from benzodiazepines. Other receptor complexes are believed to be involved, in particular the excitatory glutamate system. The involvement of glutamate in benzodiazepine dependence explains long-term potentiation as well as neuro kindling phenomena. Tolerance is defined as a loss of pharmacological effects after a repeated or regular use of a drug. Use of a short-acting benzodiazepine at night as a sleeping pill causes repeated acute dependence followed by acute withdrawal. There is some evidence that a prior history of CNS depressant dependence (e.g. alcohol) increases the risk of dependence on benzodiazepines. Tolerance to drugs is commonly believed to be due to receptor down-regulation (decrease in number), however, there is very limited evidence to support this and comes from animal studies using very high doses. Instead other mechanisms are believed to play a more important role in the development of benzodiazepine dependence, such as receptor uncoupling which may lead to prolonged comformational changes in the receptors or altered subunit composition of the receptors.[1]

 

Benzodiazepines

Repeated benzodiazepine withdrawal episodes may result in similar neuronal kindling as that seen after repeated withdrawal episodes from alcohol, with resultant increased neuro-excitability. The glutamate system is believed to play an important role in this kindling phenomenon with AMPA receptors which are a subtype of glutamate receptors being altered by repeated withdrawals from benzodiazepines. The changes which occur after withdrawal in AMPA receptors in animals have been found in regions of the brain which govern anxiety and seizure threshold; thus kindling may result in increased severity of anxiety and a lowered seizure threshold during repeated withdrawal. Changes in the glutamate system and GABA system may play an important role at different time points during benzodiazepine withdrawal syndrome.[1]

This page was last modified on 29 May 2011 at 08:36.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search/Kindling_sedative-hypnotic_withdrawal

 

 

[[Re...]]

This scares me to no end. Can others share if this happened to you and you had to taper twice?

 

Thanks.   

[[Ma...]]

Pam,

 

It wasn't until the 4th taper that I had withdrawal.  Lamberfn sent me a link to an article by a woman who went through 4 horrid cold turkeys and after the last reinstatement/c.t. she decided she was ready to die if that's what it took to be free of the poison.  She ABSOLUTELY MADE IT Pam!  And she went on to help hundreds of others going though this. 

 

Didn't mean to scare you...it really truly is different for every person...I have heard of people who have been on and off, cold turkeys, antidepressants added and cut, who have made it.  Then there are young, healthy people on small dosages for short times who suffer immensely...but still make it.  Both of my parents contend that they c/t'd valium after years of use and didn't notice a thing!  This is so weird that I've realized as much as I want desperately to predict what is going to happen today and tomorrow, there is no way to know.  There are things we can do to help minimize problems of course, but beyond that it is day by day.

 

Love ya dear and appreciate you!

Mary

[[gi...]]

I think that unless one has experienced the kindling effect in regards to benzowithdrawl that it would be hard for them to understand.  But, I find it ironic and very upsetting that we as a population have our doctors, family and friends negate and trivialize our experiences with withdrawl and yet there would be some here that also would invalidate our experiences.

 

As for those who are reinistating, I would not be too concerned about this .  It will not make tapering impossible and may not likely even happen.  As with anything in benzo withdrawl there is never any set patterns for anything.  But, it is a issue to be aware of .  

 

Bottom line is that benzo withdrawl is beatable, doable and that we all eventually do heal.    

[Guest [la...]]

Thank you, ginia, for this post.

 

I am facing what I believe is "kindling" myself. I C/T'ed Xanax in 2006, very shortly after starting it. I don't recall much w/d at all, other than being a bit moody and irritable for a few days. If I knew THEN what I know NOW, I would have stayed OFF the Benzo for good, but I saw my Psychiatrist and upon learning that I'd stopped the Xanax, the Psych put me BACK ON IT. Ugh....

 

So, I took the Xanax and Klonopin and Ambien (the latter two were added later to combat what I now know was interdose w/d) for another 5 years, becoming terribly ill on all of these drugs, as well as the Remeron, Seroquel and Adderall that were also later added to combat the tolerance-W/D symptoms and horrid depression that I was experiencing. I had NO idea about W/D and checked into detox in October 2010 and was taken off C/T from ALL of these meds. I lasted 4 months in C/T Hell and reinstated to only 1.25mg of K. (was previously on 3mg K, 1mg X, 10mg Ambien). I have since been doing a daily titration and am almost to .90mg of K. It has been rough going. B/c I daily titrate, I don't feel "cuts", per say, but the taper has been hard and I was left w/ a TON of w/d symptoms from the C/T. I can only pray that by doing a slow, controlled taper, that I will heal as I continue to lose the med and reach the finish line...Benzo FREEDOM.

 

Best wishes to all of you. Hang in there. Stay strong. Continue to taper, as bad as it hurts...the end result, I believe, will be worth it and we will be well again.

 

Much love, Nicole

[[xe...]]

My experience...

 

When I was on K for 6 months about 10 years ago I quit c/t and was fine in 3 weeks. 10 years later, I was on my highest stable dose of 8mg of K where I finally started going down for good. I dry cut from 8mg to 3mg with almost no major w/d, just mild symptoms, and I cut large too, entire mg's. Then I stupidly tried to c/t the 3mg's.. after about a month of getting worse I (also stupidly) reinstated on 1mg. Another solid month to feel much better, but I did and I stabilized. But now, cutting from that 1mg of K, has been utter hell, many points reaching as bad as the c/t for weeks, and almost no breaks from sx's at all, I haven't been able to really stabilize since the first cut and gave up on stabilizing and moved to daily reductions. It will take me at least 8 months to taper this 1mg K properly to about 0.05mg to 0.025mg where I am currently planning on jumping -- another 4-5 months from this .3mg of K.

 

I don't know what has made this 1mg of K taper so so so bad -- my 11 years on, my 2 previous c/t's in my history, the severe tolerance w/d I was sent in from Suboxone w/d and my escalating and rapidly changing dosages to deal with it (those 3 were present for my 8mg to 3mg taper which was cake), then there's the final 1 month of c/t I was most recently in plus the month to pull out of it, and the fact that the last 10-20mg's of V (.5-1mg of K) are often much worse for some. But there is little doubt to me that I am kindled, my CNS is sensitized, and there's little that cures that but time off of benzos.

[[Re...]]

Thank you for these posts. I came off klonopin and paxil after being on both for nine years. I went slow and had barely any withdrawals. Some major stresses came up a few months later and then it hit. I listened to my Drs and took both assuming I could taper again. It hit the fan and I had no idea your body could turn and feel this way. I wish I would have known. Thanks for giving me hope.

[[xe...]]

Thank you for these posts. I came off klonopin and paxil after being on both for nine years. I went slow and had barely any withdrawals. Some major stresses came up a few months later and then it hit. I listened to my Drs and took both assuming I could taper again. It hit the fan and I had no idea your body could turn and feel this way. I wish I would have known. Thanks for giving me hope.

 

What I have seen that works best for us kindled mess cases is slooowww daily reductions that are made at a speed that doesn't make you worse... I hope you feel better...

[[Re...]]

Thanks Zeno. Wish I didn't have two to taper from. All we can do is push ahead. I hope you are doing ok. I know you are having a rough time. You keep plugging on.

 

Pam

[Guest [la...]]

I, like Xeno, am doing the small, daily reductions. I don't think after being in C/T for so long that there is any chance in hell that I could make the larger cuts that most can make if starting from a "stable" or "non-kindled" position. Thus far, I have been able to reduce from 1.25mg of K to .9mg of K. I am hoping that by continuing to do this to the end, that the taper will be as tolerable as possible and that I'll hopefully reduce my post-acute w/d as well as my chances for protracted w/d. Fingers crossed on that.

 

Praying for the best for all of us...

 

Hang in there.

 

Much love and healing to all, Nicole