Healthcare in The Netherlands

[[be...]]

Oops. What a shame. Likely there is someone in jury who either has been affected by meds or know someone who has. Only 1 vote needed for a dead lock.

[[ne...]]

Drug induced iatrogenic damage to the nervous system is insanely hard to prove, especially here in Europe. I had all kinds of blood work done, MRI, CT scans, X-rays, endoscopies, I've seen 14 doctors, and nobody could find anything wrong with me, everything came out fine, even though I felt like death for months on end. I doubt there is a test to look at the GABA receptors, so what can we do? How can we bring accusations of malpractice without any evidence for that? Even if we could, there is always the issue that the patient can be blamed for not taking the drugs as prescribed. 

 

It's really a very sad situation and I believe that the power relationships inherent in psychiatric treatment put us in an loosing position. I hate what has happened to me and I am very upset about the whole situation, but at this point I don't know what to do, apart of trying to inform as many people as possible about the dangers of benzos.

Liberty, please keep us posted if you take any legal action!

xoxo

[[li...]]

Well, I couldn't get any treatment for other health issues or just way too late ... sometimes I had to try the wrong pills first ...

 

Oversimplified, GPs are expected to handle all non-catastrophic issues themselves. There are some exceptions, but mine was really retarded. Wanting to wait till things pass by themselves, thinking it's mental but hiding that ... he learned to do his job around 1980 ...

 

I could have him judged by his peers, but ... (I'll get back to that in a bit) I could file charges based on criminal law, but I doubt he would be prosecuted. If I could prove serious bodily harm in the conventional sense, that might work. I'm dealing with CNS damage and other health problems that seriously interfere with both functioning and tapering.

 

Civil law ? Likely procedures would last years, and I'd have to pay out of pocket first. And that burden of proof ...

 

Recently I have been burdened with one particular problem that might not be that hard to deal with, but I'd guess they'd want to treat that with pills I can't take ...

 

Switching GPs likely won't help, they are so loyal to each other ... they have the same basic attitude. I'd need to have a very, very good relationship with a GP to get something done.<skipping that for a bit to keep it brief. If I say my former GP messed me up, who will they believe, me or their collegue ? They likely wouldn't see an illness (that part of their training won't kick in), just a problem. This GP presented himself as a professional before I switched to him ... try dealing with proposed lifestyle changes as treatment ...

 

Today I read the blogs of a number of specialists. I'm not saying they are all bad (I read some of the comments of docs that were taught some humility by their experiences at the hands of doctors). But most seem to be arrogant. As in, they learned to do their job a certain way, money must not be wasted, time must not be wasted, no unnecessary diagnostics. If they don't find anything, medically unexplained. Or even, a phrase that is translated as something that cannot be explained medically. And then it's either back to the GP, or find a psychiatrist.

 

What do you do when your health has been harmed in a way that's bad for long term functioning and makes tapering borderline impossible ? It may not be an illness as such, but it's a physical problem that I did not do to myself. I blame the GP for a couple of things, not getting/keeping clean medical records and lying to me. He was in a position of power (gatekeeper). It seems I am experiencing some issues similar to accelerated aging. And as I know it, the only thing that helps with this drug is physical stamina.

 

So I may confront him with his peers, even so ... And the local medical community might turn against me. It would likely take a year or so.

 

I switched to him because of another health problem I couldn't get treatment for ... that came way too late, and ultimately too much went wrong. Early 2015 I was desperate enough to follow the suggestion of the GP to taper off with lorazepam, which failed for obvious reasons. Ever since I have been in a moderate to mild withdrawal state, diazepam didn't work for me.you can't fix everything by stuffing people with pills. I think it would be hard to find a GP who'd know how dangerous the situation I'm in really is. They don't 'see' anything, and they don't know about clonazepam, only mild sleeping and calming tablets which usually won't be prescribed in doses of more than one standard daily dose (equal to 5-10 mg diazepam, like 20 mg temazepam). Lorazepam is local medicine's dirty little secret, some docs know but not all.

 

As of today, Dutch healthcare scares me even more. If anyone thinks I could get much, much better help in Germany or Belgium or the UK without living there, let me know ...

[[li...]]

The last question of my previous post still stands ...

 

After further reading ....

 

I stumbled on some of the writings of Dutch neurologist Emile Keuters. It may be insightful. Most American neurologists are probably not different, but in this system it may be more extreme.

 

Mental versus physical.

 

In Dutch https://www.medischcontact.nl/nieuws/laatste-nieuws/artikel/dan-maak-je-maar-zin.htm

 

A quote that I ran through google translate and edited, also see conversion disorder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_disorder :

 

'Through the possibilities of functional imaging brain research, there is a revival of interest in brain function in disease emergence. This makes it more likely that - and more importantly: how - unconscious brain activity directs our behavior. Event related scanning with techniques like PET, SPECT, fMRI and MEG and the application of smart research paradigm data show us how the brain behaves. In hysterical paralysis we see that processes are unconsciously inhibited at a subcortical level (in the basal ganglia), to which emotional incentives/stimulation (?) have access. Cortical consciousness is thus disconnected, dissociated, from acting and experience.'

 

They check for known neurological disease (limited investigation, money, time (!!)) and if that's excluded ....

 

The quote above says that emotional incentives/stimulation (translation issue) have access to the basal ganglia at a subcortical level. Which sort of means, if they don't 'see' anything that must be it ... It's quite possible that the former part is true.

[[cs...]]

Drug induced iatrogenic damage to the nervous system is insanely hard to prove, especially here in Europe. I had all kinds of blood work done, MRI, CT scans, X-rays, endoscopies, I've seen 14 doctors, and nobody could find anything wrong with me, everything came out fine, even though I felt like death for months on end. I doubt there is a test to look at the GABA receptors, so what can we do? How can we bring accusations of malpractice without any evidence for that? Even if we could, there is always the issue that the patient can be blamed for not taking the drugs as prescribed. 

 

It's really a very sad situation and I believe that the power relationships inherent in psychiatric treatment put us in an loosing position. I hate what has happened to me and I am very upset about the whole situation, but at this point I don't know what to do, apart of trying to inform as many people as possible about the dangers of benzos.

Liberty, please keep us posted if you take any legal action!

xoxo

 

Hi, it's so odd....... I was just thinking about this very same subject  for the last few weeks.  I came to the somber conclusion that benzodiazaphines are the perfect "stealth" medication for many doctors to "hide" behind.  There is very little "evidence" of its destructive path in the CNS.  I remember being right in the middle of interdose withdrawal and severely kindled, and visiting the endocrinologist telling him how awful I felt, heart palps, sweating, etc.  The CBC and metabolic  blood panels were normal, hormone tests were not perfect but still ok, etc.....I was so fortunate to have found a Benzo wise doctor after that, once I narrowed the problem down to the insidious benzodiazaphine..... Thanks for your enlightening comment.. 

[[cs...]]

The last question of my previous post still stands ...

 

After further reading ....

 

I stumbled on some of the writings of Dutch neurologist Emile Keuters. It may be insightful. Most American neurologists are probably not different, but in this system it may be more extreme.

 

Mental versus physical.

 

In Dutch https://www.medischcontact.nl/nieuws/laatste-nieuws/artikel/dan-maak-je-maar-zin.htm

 

A quote that I ran through google translate and edited, also see conversion disorder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_disorder :

 

'Through the possibilities of functional imaging brain research, there is a revival of interest in brain function in disease emergence. This makes it more likely that - and more importantly: how - unconscious brain activity directs our behavior. Event related scanning with techniques like PET, SPECT, fMRI and MEG and the application of smart research paradigm data show us how the brain behaves. In hysterical paralysis we see that processes are unconsciously inhibited at a subcortical level (in the basal ganglia), to which emotional incentives/stimulation (?) have access. Cortical consciousness is thus disconnected, dissociated, from acting and experience.'

 

They check for known neurological disease (limited investigation, money, time (!!)) and if that's excluded ....

 

The quote above says that emotional incentives/stimulation (translation issue) have access to the basal ganglia at a subcortical level. Which sort of means, if they don't 'see' anything that must be it ... It's quite possible that the former part is true.

 

Thanks for the post.  A bit off topic. ... Speaking of fMRIs, an interesting study that i ran into while doing the research on exercise.  Fresh off the press 2017.  I'm guessing a lot of the changes that benzodiazaphines do to our brain won't be quantitatively and qualitatively assessed until the technology gets a bit more advanced.  The brain is such a complex majestic network of neurons and other stuff.  We know benzodiazaphines affect neuroplasticity in certain regions of the brain.  Once they get the imaging studies on that, the hardest part is correlating reduced neurogenesis to actual symptoms like cognitive decline.  That's the real challenge.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5554572/

Exercise Promotes Neuroplasticity in Both Healthy and Depressed Brains: An fMRI Pilot Study

Joanne Gourgouvelis, Paul Yielder, and Bernadette Murphy

Neural Plast. 2017; 2017: 8305287.

Published online 2017 Jul 30. doi:  10.1155/2017/8305287

 

 

 

[[li...]]

Well, let's see ... put me in the office of a neurologist who is open minded, stop the clonazepam (add EEG scan for good measure) and see how I'm doing the next couple of days ...

 

And of cours, if there is no known medical explanation it doesn't follow that what is going on cannot be understood from the perspective of human physiology.

 

dm123, you were 'lucky' to get normal medical care rather than 1950s style 'care'.

 

I've been reading a few more blogs of Dutch neurologists, I get the impression that many are incredibly arrogant. Most doctors are, except for the few that have been a victim of the system.

 

Drug induced iatrogenic damage to the nervous system is insanely hard to prove, especially here in Europe. I had all kinds of blood work done, MRI, CT scans, X-rays, endoscopies, I've seen 14 doctors, and nobody could find anything wrong with me, everything came out fine, even though I felt like death for months on end. I doubt there is a test to look at the GABA receptors, so what can we do? How can we bring accusations of malpractice without any evidence for that? Even if we could, there is always the issue that the patient can be blamed for not taking the drugs as prescribed. 

 

It's really a very sad situation and I believe that the power relationships inherent in psychiatric treatment put us in an loosing position. I hate what has happened to me and I am very upset about the whole situation, but at this point I don't know what to do, apart of trying to inform as many people as possible about the dangers of benzos.

Liberty, please keep us posted if you take any legal action!

xoxo

 

Hi, it's so odd....... I was just thinking about this very same subject  for the last few weeks.  I came to the somber conclusion that benzodiazaphines are the perfect "stealth" medication for many doctors to "hide" behind.  There is very little "evidence" of its destructive path in the CNS.  I remember being right in the middle of interdose withdrawal and severely kindled, and visiting the endocrinologist telling him how awful I felt, heart palps, sweating, etc.  The CBC and metabolic  blood panels were normal, hormone tests were not perfect but still ok, etc.....I was so fortunate to have found a Benzo wise doctor after that, once I narrowed the problem down to the insidious benzodiazaphine..... Thanks for your enlightening comment..

 

Still considering filing charges with their 'peers' ... even if I would win, then wat ? My guess, it would have to be 'normal' (!)On a medical-technical level, a lot is possible.

 

There was an American neurologist with whom I did chat on healthtap who stated 'leaving someone on a drug opens up the way to all sorts of complications'. Especially if regular healthcare is being blocked, again with an exception for emergency healthcare.

 

Everyone interested, don't forget to read the opening post that describes the system.

 

And as a note, historically doctors were considered to be part of the same social stratum as judges and mayors.

[[li...]]

After some deliberation I decided to file charges against my GP. He'd be judged by his peers, so ...

 

One of his reviews: 'General practitioner has not taken complaints seriously , he did not listen, dismissive attitude. Situation now: an untreatable brain tumor. Afterwards, a call to the hospice to hear how it is.' I'm not surprised. Keep in mind: the GP is the gatekeeper, but not as benign as what Americans know in some HMOs.

 

Personally, I have a very messed up health, I haven´t had proper healthcare for a very long time, long term hardcore dependency on clonazepam, severe iatrogenic drug poisoning, a very sensitized CNS. I´m not quite sure if I´d be officially without a doctor, but de facto that has been the case for about two years anyway.

 

I have a feeling I have to recover at least partly before getting off the drug; also I have the feeling that I have to get off the drug before I´ll get better ... absent healthcare.

[[ne...]]

Hi Liberty, I am sorry to hear about your brain tumour and the dismissive attitude that your GP had towards all your health problems. Even though it's not help you to get any better, it's good to hear that you filed charges and some justice is being done. Would be nice to have his licence revoked too.

 

I keep my fingers crossed for your ongoing battle. I hope you'll find ways to cope with this very difficult situation that you are facing.

 

xoxo

[[li...]]

new0girl,

 

Please don't ! I don't have a brain tumor. (I think) that was just one review of a patient of his. You're scaring me a bit ...

 

As a side note, I could think of the physician members of that board as predators.

Or even, after follow up ... ´it´s mental´ ! Docs are not used to being criticized by their patients for being prescribed benzodiazepines (and more in my case!), especially when they are still on those drugs. They have absolutely no clue what it is, being sensitized to a benzodiazepine and other issues. American prescription habits do not exist here.

 

Primitive healthcare. ´it has to be normal´. (or doesn´t it ?) But insane enough to mess you up in very strange ways. I would have been better off in Zimbabwe and Ghana.

 

Maybe (after a very long procedure) I would even ´win´. Then, offering to help me ...

I wonder if they would get it in their heads that I should be stuffed with psychiatric pills. They are used to handling difficult patients. I have to be very careful. At first, they may seem helpful, but after that ... the image of a pack of hyenas comes to mind. Not a post to read right before you go to bed.

 

Am I too paranoid ? Anyway, I can´t wait for that.

 

[[ne...]]

Oh, Liberty, my bad, I'm sorry I misunderstood your post. What a relief!

The situation is still very complicated though. You said it well, doctors are no better than lawyers or mayors.

[[be...]]

Good luck with that suit Liberty. Even if nothing is done it will be on his record. Glad you have the B***s to do so. Seems someone has to step up to the plate.

[[li...]]

Earlier today I was reading about studies that compared healthcare systems of countries.

 

As always, don´t trust numbers.

 

This one, for example: http://www.commonwealthfund.org/interactives/2017/july/mirror-mirror/

 

´access´ would seem to be very important. What does it mean ? Affordibility and timeliness. Timeliness= ´Waited two months or longer for specialist appointment´ But to see a specialist you need a required referral from the GP !!! That´s a hell of a way to compare. Does ´forever´ count ?

Apples and oranges. Most of these studies focus on income and ´social justice´.

 

I´ve stated it before, here the GP is responsible for the coordinatation of all medical care. That´s a lot on a simple GP´s plate. How are they supposed to know how to coordinate complicated benzodiazepine withdrawal (here, nobody knows) and health issues at the same time ? Dealing with financial constraints imposed on them by insurers, the traditional attitude of trying to block access to care, skipping diagnostics etc. Oh, I was about to get started. GPs here are no better than in the USA, despite the chauvinistic attitude.

 

Basically, all non-catastrophic healthcare is supposed to be the job of the GP. With a few exceptions of things that can only be done by specialists, like hip replacements.

So what I have is just ´small stuff´ according to my GP, although he didn´t put it like that.

 

A system that was not unreasonable in the 1950s ...

[[li...]]

Just a little note.

 

Some years ago, the national benzodiazepine equivalence tables stated that 4 mg clonazepam was equal to 5 mg diazepam ! (some sources: plus 5 mg Haldol!)

In 2014 there were a couple of reasons why I decided to consult with a pharmacist about discontinuation of the drug. She found the same 4 mg clonazepam=5 mg diazepam equivalence !

I explained to her, that was ´outdated´. At the time I was taking 2 mg clonazepam, and she thought 20 mg diazepam was a lot. So did I !

My ´own´ pharmacist suggested that I discontinue clonazepam in 2 or 4 weeks !

 

And then doctors wonder why we don´t come to them for help ! You don´t fix everything with amitryptiline.

 

[[be...]]

Just a little note.

 

Some years ago, the national benzodiazepine equivalence tables stated that 4 mg clonazepam was equal to 5 mg diazepam ! (some sources: plus 5 mg Haldol!)

In 2014 there were a couple of reasons why I decided to consult with a pharmacist about discontinuation of the drug. She found the same 4 mg clonazepam=5 mg diazepam equivalence !

I explained to her, that was ´outdated´. At the time I was taking 2 mg clonazepam, and she thought 20 mg diazepam was a lot. So did I !

My ´own´ pharmacist suggested that I discontinue clonazepam in 2 or 4 weeks !

 

And then doctors wonder why we don´t come to them for help ! You don´t fix everything with amitryptiline.

 

Now that is very stupid!

[[cs...]]

Just a little note.

 

Some years ago, the national benzodiazepine equivalence tables stated that 4 mg clonazepam was equal to 5 mg diazepam ! (some sources: plus 5 mg Haldol!)

In 2014 there were a couple of reasons why I decided to consult with a pharmacist about discontinuation of the drug. She found the same 4 mg clonazepam=5 mg diazepam equivalence !

I explained to her, that was ´outdated´. At the time I was taking 2 mg clonazepam, and she thought 20 mg diazepam was a lot. So did I !

My ´own´ pharmacist suggested that I discontinue clonazepam in 2 or 4 weeks !

 

And then doctors wonder why we don´t come to them for help ! You don´t fix everything with amitryptiline.

 

Those outdated figures are crazy.!  Yikes.  That must have been some very powerful Valium. 

 

Didn't they bother to ask a person who had actually used the two drugs if that figure sounded right?  Having gone through a crossover, the new charts are not that far off.  Depending on where you are at in tolerance to your current benzodiazaphine, it might have to be adjusted up a bit.  In my case I had to start at 20% above the "modern" chart equivalency due to severe tolerance.

[[be...]]

They knew squat back then. Ashton saved our day. I think most know squat even today.

[[ne...]]

They knew squat back then. Ashton saved our day. I think most know squat even today.

 

I second that. They have no idea what they are doing.

[[li...]]

They knew squat back then. Ashton saved our day. I think most know squat even today.

 

Yet, a lot is wrong with the Ashton manual. There are many half truths and statements that are untrue. The only principle that makes sense is 'gradual dose reduction'.

 

This GP of mine is old. I could imagine his ignorance, but his lying was unforgivable, and when I confronted him with the facts his attitude didn't change. If I had explained some of the effects on the brain (hypothalamus etc.), he would likely have dismissed that as 'mental'. Not sure if I did.

'the mind' vs. 'the brain'. The crazy idea that benzodiazepines act on the mind, but not on the brain !!!

 

Unfortunately, we don't pick our doctors here. I wonder if that board is going to support his stupid ideas 'clonazepam is safe because it is prescribed by a doctor' ' I didn't see anything'.

 

I just checked what is 'known' in this country about benzodiazepine withdrawal. I get the feeling that some of the sources have been removed.

Here is one, put through Google translate:

'After prolonged use - at six weeks or more - withdrawal symptoms may occur after discontinuation of the medication. Common symptoms include: palpitations, insomnia, anxiety, irritability, chills, muscle aches, trickiness and perspiration. Less frequent occurrences are diarrhea, dizziness, sensitivity to light, noise and touch, irritations or burning skin, loss of interest, concentration disturbances, loss of appetite, nausea, headache, blurred vision and fatigue. Rare withdrawal symptoms are: epileptic insults, confusion, delusions or hallucinations. [1] To prevent this, it is advisable to gradually reduce the medication for long-term use.'

The word anxiety is best replaced by 'fear' as this is closer to the original wording. Crossing culture and language. 'angst' as anxiety is not a correct translation, it just refers to the emotion of fear, without any physical components.

 

If that was all ! That's probably pretty much what the GP believes. And what his colleagues may believe. 'I learned my job that way'. What's worse, an old stubborn GP or a young male doctor brimming with testosterone, eager to fix something ?

 

What did I get myself into ? There are references to people put on benzos for way too long (usually for anxiety), the opinion appears to be that a psychiatrist should have fixed that a long time ago. That old chestnut about the underlying cause. (the old 'everybody knows') They can't lock people up based on an opinion ('in his interest'), not since 1994.

 

There is the law, and there is reality. Unlike in the USA, doctors here all think more or less the same. Same system of healthcare, one national insurance system, same basic philosphy/education, gatekeeper, restrictive, authoritarian system, small country 16-17 million people.  Usually, you're screwed if a medical mistake has been made, unless the doctor admits it. GPs cover up so much, the same goes for psychiatrists.

 

Dutch healthcare scares me even more today.

[[be...]]

I agree that the Manual is old and not what I am using to taper. I am tapering slowly because I need to. I doubt once I get to 10 mg Valium I will be able to drop 1 mg at a time. As of now I drop 1 mg every 14 days. But her table is far better than what those said before. I use her as a guideline which she suggests. I also don't agree that she said it was OK too have a drink once in a while. But she was the first to test her theories out when other psychs did not agree with her. NY City has 8 million, so not much smaller where you live.

[[cs...]]

I agree that the Manual is old and not what I am using to taper. I am tapering slowly because I need to. I doubt once I get to 10 mg Valium I will be able to drop 1 mg at a time. As of now I drop 1 mg every 14 days. But her table is far better than what those said before. I use her as a guideline which she suggests. I also don't agree that she said it was OK too have a drink once in a while. But she was the first to test her theories out when other psychs did not agree with her. NY City has 8 million, so not much smaller where you live.

 

Hi BG,

the symptom based approach combined with Ashton style tapering is ideal.  That is what my doc has used for the past decade.  Even with symptom based throttling of the cuts, it's still hard to manage because there is a metabolic lag, as you know, with Librium and Valium cuts.  The lag can vary quite a bit depending on where you are at metabolically, how much of a percentage you are cutting, etc....

[[be...]]

Yes I do the same. Doc said always listen to my body and not him. I'm still waiting for you to write your signature.

[[li...]]

Oh, I have been listening to my body. My GP has not ...

[[be...]]

:nono: to him.......

[[cs...]]

They knew squat back then. Ashton saved our day. I think most know squat even today.

 

Yet, a lot is wrong with the Ashton manual. There are many half truths and statements that are untrue. The only principle that makes sense is 'gradual dose reduction'.

 

This GP of mine is old. I could imagine his ignorance, but his lying was unforgivable, and when I confronted him with the facts his attitude didn't change. If I had explained some of the effects on the brain (hypothalamus etc.), he would likely have dismissed that as 'mental'. Not sure if I did.

'the mind' vs. 'the brain'. The crazy idea that benzodiazepines act on the mind, but not on the brain !!!

 

Unfortunately, we don't pick our doctors here. I wonder if that board is going to support his stupid ideas 'clonazepam is safe because it is prescribed by a doctor' ' I didn't see anything'.

 

I just checked what is 'known' in this country about benzodiazepine withdrawal. I get the feeling that some of the sources have been removed.

Here is one, put through Google translate:

'After prolonged use - at six weeks or more - withdrawal symptoms may occur after discontinuation of the medication. Common symptoms include: palpitations, insomnia, anxiety, irritability, chills, muscle aches, trickiness and perspiration. Less frequent occurrences are diarrhea, dizziness, sensitivity to light, noise and touch, irritations or burning skin, loss of interest, concentration disturbances, loss of appetite, nausea, headache, blurred vision and fatigue. Rare withdrawal symptoms are: epileptic insults, confusion, delusions or hallucinations. [1] To prevent this, it is advisable to gradually reduce the medication for long-term use.'

The word anxiety is best replaced by 'fear' as this is closer to the original wording. Crossing culture and language. 'angst' as anxiety is not a correct translation, it just refers to the emotion of fear, without any physical components.

 

If that was all ! That's probably pretty much what the GP believes. And what his colleagues may believe. 'I learned my job that way'. What's worse, an old stubborn GP or a young male doctor brimming with testosterone, eager to fix something ?

 

What did I get myself into ? There are references to people put on benzos for way too long (usually for anxiety), the opinion appears to be that a psychiatrist should have fixed that a long time ago. That old chestnut about the underlying cause. (the old 'everybody knows') They can't lock people up based on an opinion ('in his interest'), not since 1994.

 

There is the law, and there is reality. Unlike in the USA, doctors here all think more or less the same. Same system of healthcare, one national insurance system, same basic philosphy/education, gatekeeper, restrictive, authoritarian system, small country 16-17 million people.  Usually, you're screwed if a medical mistake has been made, unless the doctor admits it. GPs cover up so much, the same goes for psychiatrists.

 

Dutch healthcare scares me even more today.

 

Regarding sources removed, it would not surprise me.  I find it hard to believe that articles written based on scientific studies have not been published before in a more suitable, layman's format.  I think information that is disseminated in easy to understand format based on the clinical literature of the past 30 years of benzodiazaphine research is probably being censored in some way.  They can't censor the clinical literature on pubmed, but it's an arduous task digging up all the information there and correlating it to real life withdrawal and tolerance, especially with a drug like benzodiazaphines... a drug that has Numerous physiological effects on numerous systems.

 

I Have heard some say  that if you google a subject , you will find 2 different interpretations that can be the exact opposite of each other.    I think this is true of the majority of medical anecdotal information on the internet.  However, I don't think this is true if one sticks close to clinical studies and remains faithful to doing the research from unbiased authors (i know this is difficult in the age of pharmaceutical sponsored research, but most , if not all, of the clinical research I'm reading on benzodiazaphines is clearly negative, so the authors clearly have no pharmaceutical bias or interests).

 

For example, the relationship of corticosterones and corticosteroids to GABAARs and inhibitory signaling.  At first glance the research is confusing and appears conflicting.  However, as i researched further, it became clear that the clinical results were not conflicting, but the understanding of the underlying physiology was lacking at the time of the citation.

 

I will get into the details on the other thread, but suffice it to say, the original clinical results from say 10 years ago, are only now able to be explained by a model that has recently been proposed.  The original studies were not wrong or incorrect information , but they were not controlled properly because other factors were and are involved.  Had these issues been accounted for when testing for the clinical effects of corticosteriods on neurons, the results would have been more consistent.  For example, Corticosteroids have one effect on inhibitory signaling in the ventral hippocampus, and an entirely different effect in the dorsal hippocampus......and this is due, in part, to the difference in the distribution of mebrane based GRs and MRs as opposed to intracellular nuclear receptor MR and GRs in these distinct areas of the brain.  And this physiological difference has a purpose, it allows us to acknowledge  a stressor first, consolidate it in memory, and then emotionally process the event.  This is how we cope with stressors.  When things go wrong in these areas we run into stress coping issues, anxiety, etc....

 

sorry for rambling on, but the truth of our information is the only thing we have, and the truth really is out there, but it's limited by our knowledge of our own complex physiology and suitable layman summaries of the clinical research that ties things together.