Can anyone make sense of this to explain to a layperson?

[[Te...]]

Very good, dm123!!!

 

BurnedOut posted this today from a Dr. Lam in the Benzos in the News section. I thought you'd be interested in reading it: https://www.drlam.com/blog/challenges-and-best-practices-for-overcoming-benzo-withdrawal-part-1/32462/

 

Also, I have noticed that those who were on Klonopin seem to have more of a problem doing exercise. Not all, but enough to make a note of. I would LOVE to do all the exercise I can, but dizziness after doing yoga stands in the way (the twisting and turning causes dizziness the most). Not only that, I get anxious if I work with light weights.

 

Can benzos really be stored in the tissues for a long time after tapering is finished, especially Klonopin?

 

Thanks very much!!

[[li...]]

Terry,

 

You're off the drug now ?

 

'Can benzos really be stored in the tissues for a long time after tapering is finished, especially Klonopin? ' Not Klonopin. Librium and diazepam are different. But clonazepam has some active and not so active metabolites, it can take some time to get all of that out of the body. The last molecule of Klonopin will have to be metabolized ...

 

I don't know if some of that can stick around in bone marrow, as once was said of methadone ...

[[Te...]]

Oh, I've been off for 42 months, liberty. I was just wondering. I haven't been able to do what I want in exercise in seemingly forever, and it bothers me.  But that's my problem. 

 

Thanks for answering!!

[[Su...]]

dm123,

Just looked at an old post of yours that perfectly explains what happened to me regarding my Xanax use.  When Ambien was added to the mix I started to become tolerant between doses, for the first time in the 17 years  that I had been using the medication.  I always wondered if the addition of that med had messed with my system as much as it seems to -- but your "real life" entry describes and explains a lot.

Thanks for this.  I will never touch those meds again... much happened in my  life as a result of adding that for sleep.  But also that is the reason that I am now tapering so I guess in many ways it's a good thing...

Thanks again Terry and dm123 for these scientific explanations of this whole ordeal.  It's so helpful I find.

SS

[[cs...]]

Very good, dm123!!!

 

BurnedOut posted this today from a Dr. Lam in the Benzos in the News section. I thought you'd be interested in reading it: https://www.drlam.com/blog/challenges-and-best-practices-for-overcoming-benzo-withdrawal-part-1/32462/

 

Also, I have noticed that those who were on Klonopin seem to have more of a problem doing exercise. Not all, but enough to make a note of. I would LOVE to do all the exercise I can, but dizziness after doing yoga stands in the way (the twisting and turning causes dizziness the most). Not only that, I get anxious if I work with light weights.

 

Can benzos really be stored in the tissues for a long time after tapering is finished, especially Klonopin?

 

Thanks very much!!

 

Hi Terry thanks for the link. I read both parts.  part 2 is linked at the bottom of part 1.  It's great to see Dr Lam publishing this.  I wish Dr Mercola would do the same.  The more people know about the insidious nature of the drug the better.

 

Clonazepam seems to have "special properties " relative to skeletal muslce.  Exactly what is behind them is a bit mysterious. 

 

It seems to be a special benzodiazaphine.  Liberty pointed me to a few studies a few weeks back on how it affects voltage gated sodium channels (it slows their recovery rate during repolarization).  It seems to have far reaching physiological effects.

 

The post on exercise includes mental exercise.  Learning is a form of "positive stress".  I started back into physical exercise very slowly with just extended standing.  You don't even need to walk.  Just standing uses many spine and hip and leg muscles.  Once you can stand for a few hours at a time try walking for a short distance.  Then longer distance.  If you can't weight lift rubber bands are an alternative.  I hope the post will motivate rather than dictate 

[[cs...]]

Oh, I've been off for 42 months, liberty. I was just wondering. I haven't been able to do what I want in exercise in seemingly forever, and it bothers me.  But that's my problem. 

 

Thanks for answering!!

 

I hope the post will help you with alternatives.  In the meantime stimulate your mind as much as possible through new learning activities, or if you can drive, and feel up to it, drive to a destination that you've never been to before, and follow your GPS. . Even learn a new language.

 

Getting your hippocampus firing is the key.  It's one of the most plastic areas of the brain

[[cs...]]

dm123,

Just looked at an old post of yours that perfectly explains what happened to me regarding my Xanax use.  When Ambien was added to the mix I started to become tolerant between doses, for the first time in the 17 years  that I had been using the medication.  I always wondered if the addition of that med had messed with my system as much as it seems to -- but your "real life" entry describes and explains a lot.

Thanks for this.  I will never touch those meds again... much happened in my  life as a result of adding that for sleep.  But also that is the reason that I am now tapering so I guess in many ways it's a good thing...

Thanks again Terry and dm123 for these scientific explanations of this whole ordeal.  It's so helpful I find.

SS

 

Hi SS , we fell down the same slippery slope.  Stacking ambien and/or lunesta on the short acting Benzo is about the worst that one can do, and we did it in good faith from our prescribing doctors.  I never felt worse than during the stacking phase.  It's what broke my and your strong innate physiology. It took a while , but it happened. 

 

But there is recovery.  We are both tapering and I'm guessing that you are seeing windows ?

 

If there is anyone else in the same boat, find a doctor, preferably an addiction MD who knows about Ashton.  I know it's nearly impossible, but any MD that can take directions from you will be ok.    First thing is to consider a crossover if you are kindled.  I understand not everyone can crossover, but it's just a suggestion.  You will need a doctor for the Rx.  Next dump the z drug or drugs .  It's just potentiating the GABAa receptor that much more, and it's selective to the α subunit, and to the α subunit that induces tolerance the quickest.  I dumped the z drugs in a matter of a few weeks once I crossed over the benzo.  The z drugs are portrayed as relatively harmless, but when stacking them on a benzodiazaphine they strain the physiological system to the max, especially with a short acting Benzo.    Kindling is no fun......They should have a warning against this combination.

 

 

[[cs...]]

Very good, dm123!!!

 

BurnedOut posted this today from a Dr. Lam in the Benzos in the News section. I thought you'd be interested in reading it: https://www.drlam.com/blog/challenges-and-best-practices-for-overcoming-benzo-withdrawal-part-1/32462/

 

Also, I have noticed that those who were on Klonopin seem to have more of a problem doing exercise. Not all, but enough to make a note of. I would LOVE to do all the exercise I can, but dizziness after doing yoga stands in the way (the twisting and turning causes dizziness the most). Not only that, I get anxious if I work with light weights.

 

Can benzos really be stored in the tissues for a long time after tapering is finished, especially Klonopin?

 

Thanks very much!!

 

Hi Terry thanks for the link. I read both parts.  part 2 is linked at the bottom of part 1.  It's great to see Dr Lam publishing this.  I wish  [ Auto-edit: Joseph Mercola debunked: Rational Wiki | Quackwatch /edit ]  would do the same.  The more people know about the insidious nature of the drug the better.

 

Clonazepam seems to have "special properties " relative to skeletal muslce.  Exactly what is behind them is a bit mysterious. 

 

It seems to be a special benzodiazaphine.  Liberty pointed me to a few studies a few weeks back on how it affects voltage gated sodium channels (it slows their recovery rate during repolarization).  It seems to have far reaching physiological effects.

 

The post on exercise includes mental exercise.  Learning is a form of "positive stress".  I started back into physical exercise very slowly with just extended standing.  You don't even need to walk.  Just standing uses many spine and hip and leg muscles.  Once you can stand for a few hours at a time try walking for a short distance.  Then longer distance.  If you can't weight lift rubber bands are an alternative.  I hope the post will motivate rather than dictate 

 

P.S.  I agree with the auto edit.  He's a quack , and I don't follow him, but he reaches a lot of people and could help get the message out, however he's still stuck on the opioid crisis.....

[[fr...]]

  Dm,  Thank you so much for all your great info.  I wanted to ask if you knew anything about cross tolerance with Soma and Valium.  I am also on opiate, Norco.  I have been in pain management and was doing fine for years but was put on ativan in 2011 for a life threatening illness.  I did fine until about 2 1/2 years ago.  I started to feel some interdose w/d and started googling and here I am.  I crossed to Valium and that went well but now since tapering from 20 mg down to 14 I have hit a wall.  Burning neuropathy is awful.  I can't keep living like this, in so much pain etc.  I have other problems but if I could get the burning under control I feel I could do so much more.  I am bedridden now. Anyway, Dr. wants me to taper off the valium first but I am wondering if I should try to taper the soma or at least substitute another muscle relaxer instead while I taper.  I have been on these two meds long term so it will be awfully hard.  JUst wanted to know if you have any info on the cross tolerance with the soma.  Can't believe he kept me on these drugs so long and I didn't even know how bad they were.  Thanks for your help.

[[cs...]]

  Dm,  Thank you so much for all your great info.  I wanted to ask if you knew anything about cross tolerance with Soma and Valium.  I am also on opiate, Norco.  I have been in pain management and was doing fine for years but was put on ativan in 2011 for a life threatening illness.  I did fine until about 2 1/2 years ago.  I started to feel some interdose w/d and started googling and here I am.  I crossed to Valium and that went well but now since tapering from 20 mg down to 14 I have hit a wall.  Burning neuropathy is awful.  I can't keep living like this, in so much pain etc.  I have other problems but if I could get the burning under control I feel I could do so much more.  I am bedridden now. Anyway, Dr. wants me to taper off the valium first but I am wondering if I should try to taper the soma or at least substitute another muscle relaxer instead while I taper.  I have been on these two meds long term so it will be awfully hard.  JUst wanted to know if you have any info on the cross tolerance with the soma.  Can't believe he kept me on these drugs so long and I didn't even know how bad they were.  Thanks for your help.

 

Hi freeme,

Please note that I am not a medical doctor.  Please present this information to your doctor if you wish.  It seems the cross tolerance is not straightforward, but it's there.  See the long winded reply below for details.  In short, it looks like the soma is basically a PAM of the GABAa receptor and it will make you perhaps more tolerant to the benzodiazaphine , at least from what the clinical data below suggests.  however , nothing is for certain, and since you are in chronic use of both drugs, it might not matter.  The soma, from the data below seems to create tolerance to the benzodiazaphine.  However the benzodiazaphine does not appear to create tolerance to the soma.  See below for full details

 

I hope this helps.

 

--------------------

 

 

1.

 

Did the doctor originally  put you on soma to potentiate the opiate?

 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carisoprodol

 

Quote

The interaction of carisoprodol with essentially all opioids, and other centrally acting analgesics, but especially[citation needed]those of the codeine-derived subgroup of the semisynthetic class (codeine, ethylmorphine, dihydrocodeine, hydrocodone, oxycodone, nicocodeine, benzylmorphine, the various acetylated codeine derivatives including acetyldihydrocodeine, dihydroisocodeine, nicodicodeine and others)[citation needed] which allows the use of a smaller dose of the opioid to have a given effect,[citation needed] is useful in general and especially where skeletal muscle injury and/or spasm is a large part of the problem. The potentiation effect is also useful in other pain situations and is also especially useful with opioids of the open-chain class, such as methadone, levomethadone, ketobemidone, phenadoxone and others. In recreational drug users, deaths have resulted from carelessly combining overdoses of hydrocodone and carisoprodol. Another danger of misuse of carisoprodol and opiates is the potential to aspirate while unconscious.

 

End quote

 

2.

Barbiturate tolerance and soma.  We know that there is cross tolerance between these 2 classes  of drugs.

http://www.aafp.org/afp/2004/0401/p1622.html

 

 

https://one.nhtsa.gov/people/injury/research/job185drugs/carisoprodol.htm

Carisoprodol has been shown to produce cross-tolerance to barbiturates.

 

3.

But there is no direct link of cross tolerance between soma and benzodiazaphine in the clinical literature, only anecdotal information, which is not useful.

Soma , as you know Is a prodrug, so let’s look for possible cross tolerance between its active metabolite meprobamate and benzodiazaphines

 

First a bit of information on meprobamate

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meprobamate

 

 

Quote

Although it was marketed as being safer, meprobamate has most of the pharmacological effects and dangers of the barbiturates and acts at the barbiturate binding site (though it is less sedating at effective doses). It is reported to have some anticonvulsant properties against absence seizures, but can exacerbate generalized tonic-clonic seizures.

Meprobamate's mechanism of action is not completely known. It has been shown in animal studies to have effects at multiple sites in the central nervous system, including the thalamus and limbic system. Meprobamate binds to GABAAreceptors[15][16] which interrupts neuronal communication in the reticular formation and spinal cord, causing sedation and altered perception of pain. It has been shown that meprobamate has the ability to activate currents even in the absence of GABA.[15] This relatively unique property makes meprobamate exceptionally dangerous when used in combination with other GABA-mediated drugs (including alcohol). It is also a potent adenosine reuptake inhibitor (AdoRI),[17][18] which is most likely responsible for its lesser degree of sedation compared to barbiturates. Related drugs include carisoprodol and tybamate(prodrugs of meprobamate), felbamate, mebutamate, and methocarbamol.

End quote

 

 

4.  Meprobamate acts pharmacologically like barbiturates. So  once soma is metabolized by the liver it’s basically acting like a barbiturate.  As expected soma and meprobamate is listed in the PAM list below. So the meprobomate allosterically modulated the GABAa receptor.  I think they are cross tolerant based on this alone.

 Positive allosteric modulators: barbiturates, benzodiazepines, certain carbamates (ex. carisoprodol, meprobamate, lorbamate), thienodiazepines, ethanol (alcohol), etomidate, glutethimide, kavalactones,[27] meprobamate, quinazolinones (ex. methaqualone, etaqualone, diproqualone), neuroactive steroids,[28] niacin/niacinamide,[29] nonbenzodiazepines (ex. zolpidem, eszopiclone), propofol, stiripentol,[30] theanine, valerenic acid, volatile/inhaled anesthetics, and lanthanum.[31]

 

5. Clinical studies

I could not find any clinical studies of meprobamate and benzodiazaphine cross tolerance, but cross tolerance studies with benzodiazaphines and any drug are rare.

 

I did find cross tolerance studies between barbiturates and benzodiazaphines, so I think meprobamate (soma) and benzodiazaphines are cross tolerant.  But the cross tolerance is unidirectional.  See below to see what I mean.  Barbiturates seem to be “over” benzodiazaphines in terms of tolerance.  If one takes barbiturates they will be tolerant to benzodiazaphines, but if one takes benzodiazaphines, they won’t necessarily be tolerant to barbiturates.  What this means in your case, I’m not sure.  I think the soma will increase the tolerance to your benzodiazaphine, but you won’t develop tolerance to the soma if you increase the benzodiazaphine. I hope this makes sense.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-tolerance

 

This is interesting

 

Quote

Benzodiazepine binding increases the binding of GABA and barbiturates maximize the time the pore is open. Both of these mechanisms allow for influx of chloride ions. When these drugs are taken together, especially with ethanol (drinking alcohol), there is a disproportionate increase in toxicity because the effects of both occur simultaneously and add up since they act on the same receptor at different sites. Convergence upon the GABAA receptor is why tolerance for one drug in the group will most likely cause cross-tolerance for the other drugs in the group.[1] However, the barbiturates are also AMPA receptor blockers, and in addition interact with the nAChRand voltage-gated calcium channels. As a result, somebody who is tolerant to benzodiazepines is more sensitive to barbiturates than vice versa.

End quote

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9477002

Quote

Benzodiazepine treatment, however, did not result in rapid crosstolerance to the three barbiturates (pentobarbital, barbital, and phenobarbital) tested. In contrast to the lack of rapid crosstolerance to barbiturates after treatment with benzodiazepines, barbiturate treatment clearly conferred rapid crosstolerance to benzodiazepines and to ethanol. This asymmetry of rapid crosstolerance raises the possibility that benzodiazepines and barbiturates invoke tolerance by mechanisms that are not wholly identical. Therefore, tolerance to the broad range of actions of barbiturates would include crosstolerance to the effects of benzodiazepines, whereas tolerance to benzodiazepines would include only a weak or partial crosstolerance to some of the effects of barbiturates.

End quote

 

 

[[fr...]]

  Thank you for all that work you did DM.  I really don't understand it.  I will try to talk to Dr. but I don't think they understand what I am going through.  They never seem to concentrate on the Soma, just the Valium.  I know you aren't a Dr. but thank you for the info.  Don't know what I will do at the time.  I know I can't go on like this.  Thanks again.

[[li...]]

Benzodiazepines seem to be more of a problem drug than soma. I've read reports about physical dependence on soma, but withdrawal (if any) was usually short lived.

 

dm123, btw some of the effects of soma seem to remind me of clonazepam, like its action on the spinal cord. 

 

I did check for interactions on drugs.com, and it showed major interactions between diazepam/hydrocodone, carisoprodol/hydrocodone, moderate diazepam/lisinopril, diazepam/carisoprodol, lisinopril/carisoprodol. I don't have anything to add since I don't know your medical history and relationship with your doc. Sometime to keep in mind, though.

 

 

[[fr...]]

  Yes, I saw that also but Dr. said it was more about sedation than anything.  I have been taking them together for years so I guess it won't kill me at this point.  The soma seems to wear off earlier now so I must be tolerant to it.  I weaned that down from 4 or 5 pills a day to 3 pills a day about 2 yrs. ago but that was when I was crossing to valium.  I had no problems.  This burning neuropathy is spreading and I just can't take it much more.  I just don't know what to do and neither do the drs.  Thanks LIberty for the help.  So so sorry they ever put me on this poison but I put it in my mouth.  When you have 3 surgeries and so much pain all the time I just had not much choice but so sorry now.  Wish gabapentin or Lyrica would help me but it makes the burning worse.  She gave me amitripyline to try for the burning but I read the side effects and I will not add another med now.  Thanks again.

[[cs...]]

  Thank you for all that work you did DM.  I really don't understand it.  I will try to talk to Dr. but I don't think they understand what I am going through.  They never seem to concentrate on the Soma, just the Valium.  I know you aren't a Dr. but thank you for the info.  Don't know what I will do at the time.  I know I can't go on like this.  Thanks again.

 

Hi freeme, I hope you can find some relief soon.  Benzodiazaphines do strange things to our nerves.  I have that burning down the sides of my thighs.  I agree that it's horrendous, but exercise helps.

 

I would think that soma is the problem based on the studies I posted above because barbiturates cause tolerance in benzodiazaphines, but benzodiazaphines don't cause tolerance to barbiturates.  But looking at your later post you are hitting tolerance with soma which is just the opposite of what the clinical study shows. 

[[cs...]]

Benzodiazepines seem to be more of a problem drug than soma. I've read reports about physical dependence on soma, but withdrawal (if any) was usually short lived.

 

dm123, btw some of the effects of soma seem to remind me of clonazepam, like its action on the spinal cord. 

 

I did check for interactions on drugs.com, and it showed major interactions between diazepam/hydrocodone, carisoprodol/hydrocodone, moderate diazepam/lisinopril, diazepam/carisoprodol, lisinopril/carisoprodol. I don't have anything to add since I don't know your medical history and relationship with your doc. Sometime to keep in mind, though.

 

Yes I read that spinal cord PDF, but most of the figures were missing.  Do you have a link to it so that I can read it with the figures.  If not, i will try to find it myself

 

If the soma is easier to get off of, and I do still think it's causing tolerance to the benzodiazaphines, it would probably be best to dump the soma first.

 

Freeme, can you ask your doc about getting off the soma.? He might have to temporarily put you on another anitseizure med.  I would not taper the soma without being medically supervised.

[[cs...]]

  Yes, I saw that also but Dr. said it was more about sedation than anything.  I have been taking them together for years so I guess it won't kill me at this point.  The soma seems to wear off earlier now so I must be tolerant to it.  I weaned that down from 4 or 5 pills a day to 3 pills a day about 2 yrs. ago but that was when I was crossing to valium.  I had no problems.  This burning neuropathy is spreading and I just can't take it much more.  I just don't know what to do and neither do the drs.  Thanks LIberty for the help.  So so sorry they ever put me on this poison but I put it in my mouth.  When you have 3 surgeries and so much pain all the time I just had not much choice but so sorry now.  Wish gabapentin or Lyrica would help me but it makes the burning worse.  She gave me amitripyline to try for the burning but I read the side effects and I will not add another med now.  Thanks again.

 

Hi freeme, this is confusing.  Based on the clinical study barbiturates cause tolerance to benzodiazaphines but benzodiazaphines don't cause tolerance to barbiturates.  Very strange .  Do you think there is any chance you are becoming more tolerant to the diazepam? Instead of the soma.....

 

I know, the burning is horrendous.  I know it's the last thing you want to do, but can you walk for exercise?  Prayers out to you.  Please don't make any changes without working with your doctor.

[[fr...]]

  Walking is very hard.  I don't think I can walk for more than 5 or so minutes.  I am loathe to go back to Dr. and ask to wean off the Soma by getting another drug.  It seems in rehab they use phenobarbital.  Oh I am so afraid of it all.  I feel it is beyond hopeless.  My GP might do it but he probably would want to send me to a  Addiction Dr. and they always want to do the opiate first and sub with suboxone.  I don't see how going off one opiate to another helps but whatever.  Thanks for trying to help.  I feel I am so screwed now I will never get off this poison and the suffering, oh its awful.  Thanks again.

[[fr...]]

  I might be becoming more tolerant to the diazapam, who knows at this point.  I only know I am in so much pain I have to do something soon and am so fearful of the Drs. putting me in Detox.  For Soma, I have read they usually want to do inpatient.  Detox would kill me in my shape.

[[cs...]]

  I might be becoming more tolerant to the diazapam, who knows at this point.  I only know I am in so much pain I have to do something soon and am so fearful of the Drs. putting me in Detox.  For Soma, I have read they usually want to do inpatient.  Detox would kill me in my shape.

Hi freeme, can you tell your doctor you can't do inpatient?.  I understand your concerns.  I could have never done inpatient.  The lack of privacy  alone is something that wouldn't agree with me.    I think you have the right idea in getting off the soma first.  Normally I think here on BB it's stated to first get off the Benzo, since that's the hardest , then deal with the other drugs.  I agree with that approach , But in this case, if those clinical studies are correct , the soma is potentiating the benzodiazaphine.  In my case, once I crossed over, i was told to get off the lunesta and ambien as quickly as possible.  My doctor said if I stayed on those, there would be no point in doing the taper.  It was very difficult , but he was right.    The ambien and lunesta were potentiating the Benzo making things much worse, including the nerve pain and burining....  It took quite a while to feel the improvement, but it came in the next 8 weeks.

 

Soma seems to be much different, in that it seems to be a prodrug that metabolizes into essentially a barbiturate like drug.  But the end effect is that it is potentiating the chloride channel.

 

Please don't attempt this without your doctor or a doctor involved , as they have to mitigate the possibility of a seizure, since its operating like a barbiturate.  Your doctor is your best friend in that respect.  I'm still praying for you.

[[fr...]]

  My Dr. wouldn't know what to do with all this.  I guess I would have to find a specialist and they all want to put you in detox.  OH I am so frightened of it all and getting worse and worse.  The burning is awful.  I want to thank you for caring and all the work you do on here, so wonderful. 

[[cs...]]

  My Dr. wouldn't know what to do with all this.  I guess I would have to find a specialist and they all want to put you in detox.  OH I am so frightened of it all and getting worse and worse.  The burning is awful.  I want to thank you for caring and all the work you do on here, so wonderful.

 

We are all here for you. In the meantime, try to maintain as much of a steady state as possible.

[[cs...]]

dm, I've been diagnosed with Memory Impairment and Amnesia by the doc and can't understand complicated stuff anymore, so can't read all the information you're posting.  I have early onset Dementia.  I'm in big trouble.  I did read a mice research study years ago when my brain functioning was better that said that after long-term use of benzo's and then withdrawal, the mice CREATED new glutamate receptors, by as much as 50%.  It's not just upregulating these receptors.  Once the new ones are made, it's bad news.  How do you get rid of them? Then they looked at the mice brains under a microscope and found all the new glutamate receptors.  They had the mice do the open arms test and the mice didn't want to explore their surroundings anymore and just sort of huddled in a corner because their brains were damaged.  I think that's what happened to me.  Too many glutamate receptors and damaged GABA receptors.  That imbalance is very bad.  No wonder I'm so sick all the time and can never calm down.  Plus, I have too much external stress on me all the time and it makes me very stressed out.  I live alone and have been isolated here by myself for years with no outside contact except the guy who gets me my food and people on this forum.  I'm dying a slow miserable death.  I've been getting worse as the months go by.  I have the mental functioning of a young person now.  I've lost my ability to cope and deal with my life now. 

 

Hi BecksBlue, are you able to do any type of exercise?.  I've been doing a lot of research on exercise and it has a profound affect on the GABAergic system, particularly in a region of the brain called the hippocampus.  The studies I am looking at are focused on a region of the hippocampus called the dentate gyrus , which is sort of a stress regulator for the hippocampus.  In the studies, with the runners, extracellular GABA rises when faced with a stressor, and the Presynaptic vesicular transporter for GABA caled vGAT is increased in the runners, regardless of stress level.  In a sense, the hippocampus becomes more resilient to stress. 

 

Finally , the hippocampus and the DG portion of it are highly plastic.  In the runners it's thought that the increase in the GABAergic system in these  areas of the brain is what regulates this intense neurogenesis that is seen in the runners. Activities like running spur on excitatory neurogenesis, and the increased GABAergic activity is thought to regulate the neurogenesis in a compensatory fashion.....

In another more recent paper, we see that the GABAergic system plays an enormous role in neurogenesis in this area of the brain.  Young neurons depend on a properly functional GABAergic system from proliferation , to survival. In fact in these new neurons, AMPARs are "unsilenced" through the activity of the GABAergic system.

 

  In yet another study on the effect of chronic alcoholism, the authors found that the negative neurogenesis effects of alcohol were much more profound in the hippocampus than in  the PFC(prefrontal cortex). The authors speculate that the chronic alcohol use , and its affects on the glutamate and GABAergic system could affect the neurogenesis  in the hippocampus more profoundly because the DG and hippocampus are one of  the most neuroplastic regions of the brain.  This could lead to morphological ( or changes in form ) of the new neurons, and a more profound impact on the hippocampal region, especially during withdrawal.  They found this to be the most likely explanation as to why the PFC recovers much more quickly than the hippocampus once the alcohol is stopped on withdrawal.....  They don't know if this can be directly correlated to impaired cognitive function that is seen after withdrawal from alcohol.  We also know that benzodiazaphines do impair neurogenesis in the hippocampus as well (from other studies), but the study above was with alcohol.

 

The good news is that the hippocampus is highly plastic and this aberrant neurogenesis might be amenable to change.  We know the effects of exercise on neurogenesis, especially in the hippocampal region, and I think this could be of therapeutic benefit to those in PWS.

 

The reason why I'm focusing on this is because the hippocampus is responsible for learning, memory, spatial navigation, and in part, our anxiety levels.  The DG as a regulator of hippocampal stress resiliency is important to how the hippocampus adapts and responds to stress.  These areas seem to be compromised in classical alcoholism and wd, and I speculate in benzodiazaphine PWS.

[[Be...]]

dm, I can barely walk anymore.  I hurt my left hip and leg and now walk with a limp.  Limping may also be from a possible stroke.  Doc said I might have had a stroke.  The only excercise I do now is walking to the mailbox up the street each day.  I'm too sick to exercise anymore.  I'm vomiting and nauseated sick every single day and have been for years since I got off the pills.  I used to be very athletic and in good shape and used to walk and hike alot.  Now I can barely stand up without falling down.  The high glutamate and wrecked GABA receptors are killing me.  I'm under severe health anxiety stress 24/7. 

[[cs...]]

dm, I can barely walk anymore.  I hurt my left hip and leg and now walk with a limp.  Limping may also be from a possible stroke.  Doc said I might have had a stroke.  The only excercise I do now is walking to the mailbox up the street each day.  I'm too sick to exercise anymore.  I'm vomiting and nauseated sick every single day and have been for years since I got off the pills.  I used to be very athletic and in good shape and used to walk and hike alot.  Now I can barely stand up without falling down.  The high glutamate and wrecked GABA receptors are killing me.  I'm under severe health anxiety stress 24/7.

 

Hi BecksBlue,if you can stand that's a start.  That's all you need to get started.  I know it's difficult but try stand for 5 minutes at a time several times a day.  This will start to strengthen several muscles that you don't even know you have.  But your brain knows about them.  It will also help your anterior and lateral hip flexors get a bit stronger, as well as your spinal erector muscles.  If you have not done this in a while your pulse may start to go up around 20 bpm towards the end of the 5 minutes.  This is normal.  Standing will also provide your heart with some compensatory resistance as it pumps the blood back up from your legs. This is exercise for your heart.    It's a start and after several weeks you will be able to work your way up to longer periods.  Blessings dm123

[[Be...]]

dm, I can stand for awhile and the mailbox is quite a ways up the street and I walk up there almost everyday.  I just feel so sick all the time and feel like I could vomit alot.  I have too much stress on me each day.  Doc a few years ago said I wouldn't be able to live on my own much longer, but here I am.  Struggling to get by each day.  It's extremely hard on me being diagnosed with dementia.  I also have severe anxiety and my insides shake terribly all the time including inside my head.  It feels and sounds like a fire is raging inside my head all the time.  A woman named Susan Callahan wrote a book once called, "Brain on Fire."  She had tons of antibodies attacking her brain and was diagnosed with Encephalitis and Inflammation.  I think that's what I have.  Damaged receptors and my body is always trying to get rid of them.