Subutex

[[Da...]]

I had a dependency to OTC Codeine products before Benzos, and I am on 8mg Subutex for that. I am starting to wonder if this med is making my Benzo WD sxs worse. I know it has side effects like dizziness and drowsiness. I wonder if this could be worsening my severe dizziness, disorientation and lethargy etc.

 

Anyone else on this med during Benzo WD?.

[[Ca...]]

Hi,

Yes, i beleive there is an interaction...

I was on opiates, then they used valium to taper and post jump...

Im still trying to work it all out, but it seems to me that valium makes everything so much stronger, and not in a good way...

they used subs 2mg x3d in rapid detox, then 2x next day... -i refused day 3, as i was off the planet, like never before (plus valium), and i had been on over 400mg oxy/d... -and it has changed how i feel i respond to other meds, ie. gabapentin.

So, yeah, i think it changes things, but not sure on the how or why...

Anyone else???

[[Ca...]]

DappleApple,

Not to b nosey, but is ur other illness digestive related, by any chance?

PM, if u want... (or ignore.. lol)

 

[[Da...]]

DappleApple,

Not to b nosey, but is ur other illness digestive related, by any chance?

PM, if u want... (or ignore.. lol)

 

It's basically period pain on steroids, Benzo WD is also it's best friend, ugh. I get a lot of nausea with it too. I am going to try and get my thyroid checked next month as I have always had this issue. What worries and frustrates me is this is the main catalyst that got me into such a mess with Opiates and Benzos in the first place. Some of the sxs, like what I can only describe as 'disorientation attacks' and fainting episodes have always been an issue for me, seem to fit with a thyroid imbalance or some kind of endocrine issue. I have it in my medical history so at least I can prove this to be one thing that is not 'the result of drug abuse'. Drug abuse is the result of it!. I am going to begin tapering the Subutex in the new year, I already have my first reduction coming up with my next script. I know I probably shouldn't be doing this alongside Benzo WD but the addiction agency which prescribes it know nothing about Benzos or Benzo WD. They threatened me repeatedly to get off the Benzos ASAP or face a forced rapid reduction of the Subutex. I was given no medical support whatsoever to do this. I had to speed my taper up mainly because of this, and I am paying for it now.

[[Da...]]

You did the right thing coming off the Oxy before you started tapering the Valium though. I wish I had been given the chance to come off the Subutex and then the Benzos. How are you doing on 2.5mg/d at the moment?.

[[Ca...]]

DappleApple, -first... merry xmas!!! Lol

 

Why i asked about stomach issues that u mentioned, was because after all my accident stuff was fixed, i was taking the huge doses of oxy for the stomach pain, and it was crippeling... but it was the opiates that was causing it... they all said i needed to reduce it, but never mentioned OIBS -opiate induced bowel syndrome (upper) -the upper bit is important, as it is different to what most consider as constipation, and laxitive are unlikley to be effective. And the pain is unlike constipation... i wont go on and on, as it may well have nothing to do with you.. ncbi -north carolina bowel institute, has good info online, if u want to look... and sing out if u want more info, most of my drs knew nothing of the upper bit, but i found a medicine (prucalopride) that saved me...

That codine can be as nasty as oxy, in its own way.... i used it as a cushion post detox, but finished with it recently, slow taper...

Funny u mention ur thyroid, as it was one of the first things they checked...

They did ALL the imaging and tests... when, in my opinion, the gastro dr (a professor). Or the pain medicine specialist (that two other pain med specialists reffered me on to), should have known what was going on, not left it for me to find on the internet... resurch is saying that oibs oic or nbs is a growing unrecognized global problem... -the upper more so..

Like i said, no idea if this is you, in any way, but for me, knowing truly saved my life...

Hope u are surviving your nasty situation, and so hope u get to taper one med at a time, though looking back, it would be hard to say which one i would prefer to do first... prob splitting hairs for me...

oops, yes, i feel i am stabalizing on the 2.5V, still a bit of rls, extra stomach cramps, reflux(new), sweating, weak muscles and insomnia...(1am here) -hoping to drop to 2V in a week or so. That will start to give me an idea of a possible taper speed...?? Trying lyrica with good results, but i want more info on it before i decide...

(I best re-read ur post to see what i missed, sorry in advance)..

hope i havnt bored u to death... wish u the very best... stay in touch and let us know how u r going...

T.

 

[[Ca...]]

Miss Apple...

sorry, just re read ur sig, -u r off benzo post september??

How are your benzo withdrawls? Or sxs? Is the stomach getting worse or stable at damn nasti...?

-i wonder if the subs would be a good cushion at present, but maybe not so great in the long run, and benzo stuff may flare up as the subs drop??? -if it were me, (which it is not), i would be in no rush to reduce the subs any faster than they make u... -or more that, what u are comfortable with.  -i would probably "bite" as i got a bit lower, if there was a need...

-what is the taper schedual??

Asides... u may get a good run of it all...?

I was reading the california opiate detox proticols last night.. (its a bit of a read, Colin, -admin has a link as a reference), they have patient care proticols to avoid exessive w/d trauma, i guess global proticols would be similar, (not sure where u are), it was similar to our Australian one..(sort of.. ours is a bit blunt) -might b handy to b familiar with ur relevant one...?

All the best...

[[Da...]]

DappleApple, -first... merry xmas!!! Lol

 

Why i asked about stomach issues that u mentioned, was because after all my accident stuff was fixed, i was taking the huge doses of oxy for the stomach pain, and it was crippeling... but it was the opiates that was causing it... they all said i needed to reduce it, but never mentioned OIBS -opiate induced bowel syndrome (upper) -the upper bit is important, as it is different to what most consider as constipation, and laxitive are unlikley to be effective. And the pain is unlike constipation... i wont go on and on, as it may well have nothing to do with you.. ncbi -north carolina bowel institute, has good info online, if u want to look... and sing out if u want more info, most of my drs knew nothing of the upper bit, but i found a medicine (prucalopride) that saved me...

That codine can be as nasty as oxy, in its own way.... i used it as a cushion post detox, but finished with it recently, slow taper...

Funny u mention ur thyroid, as it was one of the first things they checked...

They did ALL the imaging and tests... when, in my opinion, the gastro dr (a professor). Or the pain medicine specialist (that two other pain med specialists reffered me on to), should have known what was going on, not left it for me to find on the internet... resurch is saying that oibs oic or nbs is a growing unrecognized global problem... -the upper more so..

Like i said, no idea if this is you, in any way, but for me, knowing truly saved my life...

Hope u are surviving your nasty situation, and so hope u get to taper one med at a time, though looking back, it would be hard to say which one i would prefer to do first... prob splitting hairs for me...

oops, yes, i feel i am stabalizing on the 2.5V, still a bit of rls, extra stomach cramps, reflux(new), sweating, weak muscles and insomnia...(1am here) -hoping to drop to 2V in a week or so. That will start to give me an idea of a possible taper speed...?? Trying lyrica with good results, but i want more info on it before i decide...

(I best re-read ur post to see what i missed, sorry in advance)..

hope i havnt bored u to death... wish u the very best... stay in touch and let us know how u r going...

T.

 

No, you haven't bored me at all lol. I've heard of OIBS before, it often gets misdiagnosed as IBS, and IBS seems to be a blanket term for a lot of things it's not. I'm sorry the drugs that are supposed to help stop pain, landed up causing you so much pain. OIBS sounds really horrible. I wish Codeine had made me puke. I am so afraid of puking I wouldn't have touched a grain of the stuff again. Thinking back on it now I do recall having a lot of stomach pain. I am not sure if this was caused directly by the Codeine though, as the OTC preparations I was taking up to 60 a day of by the time I had to ask for help, also contained Ibuprofen. Ibuprofen and the entire NSAID family are  renowned for causing GI problems too.

 

I've refused every psych med I've been offered so far, this ordeal is bad enough without throwing another paradoxical reaction into the spokes. I was paradoxical on Benzos. My worst paradox side effects were extreme panic (I'd scream, cry and it felt like my body and brain were shutting down from panic attacks), extreme rage (I could easily destroy a room in under five minutes, I felt totally out of control, thankfully I never actually attacked another person, but I came scarily close). Extreme DP/DR  (I became completely detached from reality, like someone had thrown a net curtain over me and rocketed my ass into space. I felt like I was watching my life from inside a badly scratched goldfish bowl. I came out of this about a month after stopping the Benzos. I felt like I'd just stepped out of a very grey, lifeless world, into an ocean of colour and everything was way too bright). Extreme and total Insomnia (I was lucky to get an hour of sleep most nights. I was so sleep deprived I began hallucinating an old man with a dog following me everywhere and had constant, unrelenting migraines). Coming off the Benzos has made my Insomnia worse though as all my physical sxs keep me awake. Extreme anxiety (My already high anxiety went off the scale. I would have meltdowns over the smallest of things). Extreme paranoia (I thought everyone around me was part of a huge conspiracy to either kill me, or put me in the nuthouse lol).

 

In all honesty, I wish someone had seen all this for what it was, a reverse reaction to a chemical I thought would reduce these things, crossed me over to Valium and started me on a sensible, controlled taper. I had no real way of controlling the amount I was taking, we didn't know what was in it, what other agents were used to cut it or if it even contained what it said it did. This was my main reason for asking for a Valium crossover. So much for harm reduction!. 

 

I was just left to flounder in the dark, no medical support at all, just a void of ignorance and very questionable ethics. At the time I had no real idea what Benzo tolerance was, so when I hit it, I did what is sort of instinctive for a lot of people (and doctors who fail to detect tolerance and paradoxical side effects) and hiked up my dose. I was on a dose equivalent to 700mg of Valium a DAY. I was told I was taking a dose way above what it would take to kill someone with no tolerance.

It started with one pill a day, and went up to 70 a day. I was so stupid, and I feel like I am in the dungeons of hell right now, and the most severe punishment is having so many debilitating physical sxs and having the mental faculties that Benzos stole from me back. One of my worst ones right now being horrible lethargy to the point I am struggling to even sit up, so I have copious hours of nothing to beat myself up over my screw ups with meds. This symptom is so bad I feel as drowsy as I did when I first took Benzos, before the paradox effects kicked me in the ass. I think people are secretly thinking I am 'using' again and ironically the only thing standing between me and losing everything is the addiction agency's U/A tests.

 

If I'd had ANY idea what coming off super high dose of 'designer' 'research chemical' Benzos would be like, I would have easily CT-ed the Codeine and never let any more of this garbage into my body. 

 

I'm off the Benzos now, I was recklessly forced off by the agency who prescribe the Subutex. They told me to provide a clean U/A test asap or face a forced 'rapid reduction' of the Subutex. Also a new act was going through parliament here which was banning the widespread sale of these substances online. I managed something reminiscent of a taper, but I was told that following Ashton's taper was 'drawing out and prolonging the process' and they don't believe in Benzo WD syndrome, or even the dangers of CT, so all they saw was an addict doing all they could to stay on drugs, when in reality all I wanted was to get OFF the crap. I tried talking to them in a rational manner about a Valium crossover and the many people who had found that method successful. All I was told is basically, for want of better words 'we don't prescribe Benzodiazepines, and if you don't get off them, we won't be prescribing you Subutex anymore either'. I tried approaching our GP practice, but all they did was report me back to the addiction agency for 'drug seeking'. Nobody saw my sheer desperation to get OFF this garbage. It was making me really unwell with severe side effects. Now 99% of my sxs now are physical, I don't know how I am going to carry on like this.

 

If I feel like the reductions in the Subutex are making me more unwell, I'll attempt to stall it, as I just can't take any more sickness. If I start to get WD sxs from this, which I probably will because I am already very sick from the Benzo WD, I dread to think what will happen to me. I'm not even sure I will be able to 'stall' it because the addiction agency don't believe in Benzo WD.

 

The people I automatically thought would understand the complexities facing someone trying to get off Benzos, an addiction 'treatment' agency, actually landed up understanding the least.

 

What has the Lyrica done for you?. I can't see anyone prescribing me any additional meds as it says in my medical history NOT to give me ANYTHING that could be remotely 'habit forming' and mentions drugs like Lyrica, Z Drugs, ADs, and of course, Benzos. I am going to try and get Benzos put down as an allergy based on my paradoxical side effects. Hopefully this may help prevent me being given them in any kind of emergency if I was unable to speak for myself. The addiction agency contradict themselves though by pushing drugs like Seroquel and Remeron at me and then telling me I am 'refusing treatment' every time I refuse to take these offers up. They have no idea about Benzo WD, so in my opinion they have no place prescribing psych meds at all. I feel a good percentage of scripts for these meds are totally unwarranted. They're probably getting huge kickbacks from pharma companies for dishing them out. They aren't part of the NHS. They are a private company with huge financial motives. Addiction services have been auctioned off from the NHS to the private sector and it's not a pretty picture.

 

They describe me as some kind of drug seeking maniac who willingly gobbles drugs for fun. They make it sound as if I am a big street drug user, when in reality, the only 'street drug' I have used is weed. I don't know whether it's worth trying that again with my Benzo WD sxs. I had a severely bad reaction to alcohol not so long ago, so using any other substances, herbs etc really scares me.

 

I hope I haven't bored you 

[[Da...]]

Miss Apple...

sorry, just re read ur sig, -u r off benzo post september??

How are your benzo withdrawls? Or sxs? Is the stomach getting worse or stable at damn nasti...?

-i wonder if the subs would be a good cushion at present, but maybe not so great in the long run, and benzo stuff may flare up as the subs drop??? -if it were me, (which it is not), i would be in no rush to reduce the subs any faster than they make u... -or more that, what u are comfortable with.  -i would probably "bite" as i got a bit lower, if there was a need...

-what is the taper schedual??

Asides... u may get a good run of it all...?

I was reading the california opiate detox proticols last night.. (its a bit of a read, Colin, -admin has a link as a reference), they have patient care proticols to avoid exessive w/d trauma, i guess global proticols would be similar, (not sure where u are), it was similar to our Australian one..(sort of.. ours is a bit blunt) -might b handy to b familiar with ur relevant one...?

All the best...

 

I'm in the UK. I hope my above post explains most of my mess. This is a very difficult  issue as they simply have no idea how to deal with someone going through Benzo WD. All attempts to make them understand just get construed as 'desperate' and 'drug seeking behavior'. They are dealing with something above and beyond their level of understanding. Someone going through Benzo WD needs a totally different approach to someone who is just getting off Opiates. I am probably so sick from the Benzo WD mess that I will just perceive any sxs of Subutex WD as part of Benzo WD. It's all going to get VERY confusing.

[[Ca...]]

Hiya Miss Apple,

Nope... not even close to bored, (hope u dont mind me saying...) -but u make me laugh and nearly cry... -i love the way u write and put things, but i see many similarities in what we have faced, though with different medications and, -well, many different things...

 

You have a lot on your plate to deal with... are u getting any good mental support? -it should legally be provided, but if your circstances permit i would look outside the detox clinic... -i must say that my in clinic rapid detox, were the funniest (cos they made me so high), yet worst time of my life... cos they had no clue about a major multi trauma patient, and hated being proven wrong... it was a public hospital drug and alcohol detox unit that i had found on my own and come in the back door... (my sister was an associate prof. at the hospital and knew the director that ran the unit... =problems with floor staff, lol) -the alternative was private, from about 3k per day -and ran way longer... oh, i was so naive!! -they got me off opiates and left me in full withdrawals, with valium to help me!!!

 

I am sure there are people on here way more ummm, qualified??, to advise you...

But, from those doses of valium u will need time... and i think the subs should stay untill u are much more stable... but how long, and how u could achiev this, is beyond me... i would look for a good private medicine specialist or maybe university hospitals... I email with a couple of professors around the world about physical aspects of my trauma, its more just updates now... but i do wonder if 700mg/d, combined with your articulate writing style in a well aimed email, might help u some???

 

I liked the way u describe your withdrawals... sorta like a cross between myself, my teenage boys, and an ex, i once had!!!

Sorry, my mind and memory is a bit fried tonight post lyrica... -oh, ping!!!... -lyrica... not sure i can say either way... good and bad... -i will say, be very cautious... (have a look at shamo's thread -lyrica... and others on here... ) PM me if u need...

 

As strong as u are, and have been, i suspect u will need much support... so pls hang in and stay strong...

my eyes have given up... so will say goodnight for now... (11pm Australia)