Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[te...]]

Thank you

[[Co...]]

The active ingredient in tablets is NOT uniformly distributed, so any taper that requires the use of partial tablets will not be accurate, or precise.  (And the actual active ingredient content varies 10% or more, tablet-to-tablet, anyway)

 

OTOH, Rx liquid or liquid made with a solvent like vodka or PG will be uniformly distributed, and the dose will be as accurate an precise as you instrument will measure.  If you make a .1mg per ml solution, and measure out cuts of, say, .1ml each day, you will definitely be cutting .01mg each day.

 

Now, having said that, everyone believes that because a daily taper (liquid or dry) has all those doses in 2 or 3 decimal places (.01, or .001) that a daily taper has to be very precise and accurate. It doesn't!!

 

A daily taper only needs to be gradual, because that's how your body adjusts to the declining dose, gradually.  Any taper plan that allows you to gradually lower your dose, can work.

 

Now everyone here knows that I am an advocate of liquid tapers.  And I suppose because I'm an engineer, I like the greater precision.  But the real reason I recommend liquid is because it so easy. You make a 10-14 day supply of liquid, and just drink a little less each day. 

 

And dilution dramatically lowers the error factor.  If you make, for example, a .02ml measurement error, that's only .002mg.

 

 

I thank you too for explaining again the working of the daily taper.

For me, at this point the dry cuts, even if not exact, are what I prefer.

I cannot stand not even a drop of vodka and too much milk is also not an option.

 

[[te...]]

Coneffeto

I feel the exact same as I don’t drink any liquor either . I am at such a small amount of the pill that I have to cut into 3 minute pieces that I don’t know what else to do .

[[Co...]]

Coneffeto

I feel the exact same as I don’t drink any liquor either . I am at such a small amount of the pill that I have to cut into 3 minute pieces that I don’t know what else to do .

 

 

If you feel you are willing to try the liquid taper, that is what you should do.

You will know the  if it works for you.

For myself I know I will stay with the dry cuts

[[...]]

To support Builder, I do like liquid tapers.

 

In fact, I tell everyone to first try a liquid taper and only if it fails, look at a dry taper.

 

The reason I made the dry power capsule method was:

(1) Convenience when I travel

(2) To get a whole month's worth of pills

(3) Like so many others, I cannot handle even a drop of alcohol.  For me, I have leaky blood brain barrier.  For other, perhaps they are alcoholics.  Still others have other reasons.

 

Builder and I are both engineers which is why we enjoy helping with math.

 

B

 

 

 

[[ga...]]

To support Builder, I do like liquid tapers.

 

In fact, I tell everyone to first try a liquid taper and only if it fails, look at a dry taper.

 

The reason I made the dry power capsule method was:

(1) Convenience when I travel

(2) To get a whole month's worth of pills

(3) Like so many others, I cannot handle even a drop of alcohol.  For me, I have leaky blood brain barrier.  For other, perhaps they are alcoholics.  Still others have other reasons.

 

Builder and I are both engineers which is why we enjoy helping with math.

 

B

Engineers are the best!!!

[[Ma...]]

To support Builder, I do like liquid tapers.

 

In fact, I tell everyone to first try a liquid taper and only if it fails, look at a dry taper.

 

The reason I made the dry power capsule method was:

(1) Convenience when I travel

(2) To get a whole month's worth of pills

(3) Like so many others, I cannot handle even a drop of alcohol.  For me, I have leaky blood brain barrier.  For other, perhaps they are alcoholics.  Still others have other reasons.

 

Builder and I are both engineers which is why we enjoy helping with math.

 

B

 

Both you and builder bring so much to this whole community doing so much of the math.  We count on you a great deal and I am sure there are days you could scream because it takes us so long to get it, but you hang with us anyway.  Thank you both so much !!  ☮️

[[bu...]]

Thanks builder it has taken me quite a while to decide what to do . I am going to start my liquid this weekend . I have decided to make just enough for one day until I get used to it or see if it works for me .

My current dose of Ativan is 0.286

So 4 ml vodka 46 ml water and one 0.5 Ativan

Then I drink 28.6 ml  then I just take 00.1 less every day .

Wish me luck

Everyone here have been kind and patient with my trying to understand this method I think I have it now . Thank you all for your help .

 

To make a .1mg = 1ml solution,  starting with .5mg, it's .5mg + 1ml vodka + 4ml water.

[[te...]]

Builder I am only making a days worth so I thought it is one 0.5 Ativan then 4 ml of vodka then 46 ml of water so I can pull 28.6 ml

[[bu...]]

Coneffeto

I feel the exact same as I don’t drink any liquor either . I am at such a small amount of the pill that I have to cut into 3 minute pieces that I don’t know what else to do .

 

Sadly, so many folks associate drinking alcoholic beverages with alcohol as a pharma solvent. Using a tiny amount of vodka to dissolve your benzo isn't really anything like drinking alcohol.  If you used 1ml vodka per day, it would take a  month and half just to equal one standard highball, or 3 weeks to equal one bottle of beer.

 

Alcohol and PG are the worlds 2 most common pharma solvents.  You very probably already have OTC meds in the cabinet that use alcohol.  If you use a conventional mouthwash, you definitley ingest more than than 1ml of alcohol.

 

And no offense to anyone, but I will never understand why folks seem to think a tiny amount of alcohol is more threatening than their daily dose of benzos!

[[bu...]]

Builder I am only making a days worth so I thought it is one 0.5 Ativan then 4 ml of vodka then 46 ml of water so I can pull 28.6 ml

 

OK, so you want to do .01mg = 1ml.  That will work.

 

But you still only need 1ml vodka for .5mg Ativan.  (You can use more, but it isn't required)

 

.5mg + 1ml vodka + 49 ml water will give you the 50mls, .01mg per ml.

[[te...]]

Perfect thank you !!!!

[Guest [NM...]]

Coneffeto

I feel the exact same as I don’t drink any liquor either . I am at such a small amount of the pill that I have to cut into 3 minute pieces that I don’t know what else to do .

 

Sadly, so many folks associate drinking alcoholic beverages with alcohol as a pharma solvent. Using a tiny amount of vodka to dissolve your benzo isn't really anything like drinking alcohol.  If you used 1ml vodka per day, it would take a  month and half just to equal one standard highball, or 3 weeks to equal one bottle of beer.

 

Alcohol and PG are the worlds 2 most common pharma solvents.  You very probably already have OTC meds in the cabinet that use alcohol.  If you use a conventional mouthwash, you definitley ingest more than than 1ml of alcohol.

 

And no offense to anyone, but I will never understand why folks seem to think a tiny amount of alcohol is more threatening than their daily dose of benzos!

 

This. 🙌🏻  I’m not a drinker either. I’m not an alcoholic, I just abstain with the exception of a few drinks once or twice a year at best. My last batch of liquid was prepared about a month ago and it has all of 20ml of 80 proof vodka in it. That is hardly enough even if taken at once, to do any harm. I get people’s position with alcohol and sensitivity, but seriously. 20 ml of vodka per 200 ml spaced out over weeks in negligible at BEST.  🤦🏻‍♀️ I’ll be done tapering on 28May. The tiny TINY minuscule amount of alcohol is worth it. I’ll be DONE with my taper and with benzodiazepines.

[[...]]

Here is the thing about alcohol.

 

I agree, for most people, the little bit of alcohol used for liquid taper is no concern.

 

But just like the medical community doesn't support benzo withdrawal is terrible because they "know people who stop benzos with no problems", it is also possible that some people cannot handle even a little alcohol even though "most people can".

 

Some say the reason for zero ability to handle alcohol is due to a leaky blood brain barrier (BBB).  Not sure if leaky BBB is true but the cause isn't important.

 

What is important is people who say they cannot handle even one mL of alcohol should be believed.  Only they know how it feels.  We are all different.

 

Some people smell alcohol or cleaning fluids or gasoline and get an immediate headache which last for hours.  This is common.  The few molecules in these chemical vapors are much less than 1 mL, yet people who smell them react with a headache.  How is that possible when most people pump gas every day without a problem?

 

It is not fair to insist all people can handle 1 mL of alcohol.  Although I bet 99% of the world can.

[Guest [NM...]]

Here is the thing about alcohol.

 

I agree, for most people, the little bit of alcohol used for liquid taper is no concern.

 

But just like the medical community doesn't support benzo withdrawal is terrible because they "know people who stop benzos with no problems", it is also possible that some people cannot handle even a little alcohol even though "most people can".

 

Some say the reason for zero ability to handle alcohol is due to a leaky blood brain barrier (BBB).  Not sure if leaky BBB is true but the cause isn't important.

 

What is important is people who say they cannot handle even one mL of alcohol should be believed.  Only they know how it feels.  We are all different.

 

Some people smell alcohol or cleaning fluids or gasoline and get an immediate headache which last for hours.  This is common.  The few molecules in these chemical vapors are much less than 1 mL, yet people who smell them react with a headache.  How is that possible when most people pump gas every day without a problem?

 

It is not fair to insist all people can handle 1 mL of alcohol.  Although I bet 99% of the world can.

 

I haven’t seen anybody make this assertion.

 

 

[[...]]

Hey NMsafe,

 

This wasn't pointed at you at all.

 

Please forgive me if it hurt you.

 

Some others have posted - somewhat judgmentally - telling people they should be able to handle a small (1 mL) of alcohol and I am not so sure it is true for everyone. 

 

Bob

[[Co...]]

To support Builder, I do like liquid tapers.

 

In fact, I tell everyone to first try a liquid taper and only if it fails, look at a dry taper.

 

The reason I made the dry power capsule method was:

(1) Convenience when I travel

(2) To get a whole month's worth of pills

(3) Like so many others, I cannot handle even a drop of alcohol.  For me, I have leaky blood brain barrier.  For other, perhaps they are alcoholics.  Still others have other reasons.

 

Builder and I are both engineers which is why we enjoy helping with math.

 

B

 

 

Thanks Bob,

Your help combined with information from builder and BG, made me choose more clearly my own taper.

I feel uncomfortable that you worked so hard to make the plan for me.

One drop of alcohol is going right to my brain.Never have been able to drink alcohol or coffee.

 

[[...]]

As far as I can tell, a DMT is a DMT. Doesn’t really matter if it’s liquid or dry- as long as you’re comfortable w/ your method and it gets the job done. Neither is “better.” As builder said, as long as you’re gradually going down, the exact precision probably doesn’t matter. Not sure why there’s so much debate b/w liquid vs dry- as long as it’s a DMT, it’s all good.

 

As some of you know, I do a dry DMT w/ a lab scale. My benzo is already homogenous since it’s a powder. This makes it very easy to accurately and consistently MT.

[Guest [NM...]]

As far as I can tell, a DMT is a DMT. Doesn’t really matter if it’s liquid or dry- as long as you’re comfortable w/ your method and it gets the job done. Neither is “better.” As builder said, as long as you’re gradually going down, the exact precision probably doesn’t matter. Not sure why there’s so much debate b/w liquid vs dry- as long as it’s a DMT, it’s all good.

 

As some of you know, I do a dry DMT w/ a lab scale. My benzo is already homogenous since it’s a powder. This makes it very easy to accurately and consistently MT.

 

The debate as I see it is about the fact that the active ingredient in pills is not uniform, so that’s why making a solution provides a more accurate dose. Cutting a single pill might give one the entire dose, barely a dose with little active ingredient, or no active ingredient. My dry cuts were *brutal* at times to the point I wasn’t very functional, while my liquid taper has been way smoother in comparison. Like day and night compared to the previous few months.  If dry cutting a pill to microdose is working for a person, I would never advise them to switch to liquid.

[[Co...]]

As far as I can tell, a DMT is a DMT. Doesn’t really matter if it’s liquid or dry- as long as you’re comfortable w/ your method and it gets the job done. Neither is “better.” As builder said, as long as you’re gradually going down, the exact precision probably doesn’t matter. Not sure why there’s so much debate b/w liquid vs dry- as long as it’s a DMT, it’s all good.

 

As some of you know, I do a dry DMT w/ a lab scale. My benzo is already homogenous since it’s a powder. This makes it very easy to accurately and consistently MT.

 

 

Did you get a lab scale online?

Although I trust the eyeball measuring, I check with the scale .

Mine is always showing different numbers.

I do DMT dry cuts

[[...]]

I also like that a liquid can dissolve the whole pill and allow for a more uniform distribution.

 

I am not sure it matters much when a person is cutting a pill in half because the manufacturer put a "score" on the pill indicating it could be cut in half if you follow along the score on the pill.

 

For low doses (hard to cut less than 1/4 a pill), I crushed my pills into a powder, stir vigorously, and weigh on a scale.

 

I then repackage into a capsule so I can take a pill while traveling.

[[...]]

Ah...yes, I see.  Tablets may not be uniform.  A powder is uniform and Bob's method of crushing the tabs into a powder and stirring to make it uniform would get around the non-uniform tablet issue.  I agree with how he crushes many/several tablets at once to make his uniform powder mixture...b/c each individual tablet can vary up to 10% in active ingredient.

 

Librium comes as a powder in a capsule already....making it super easy to dry MT.  I just open the capsule, pour the amt I need into an empty capsule (using the scale to weigh). I make about a week's worth at one sitting.  Yes, I bought my lab scale online.  It goes to 0.0001g and does not give different readings.  It is stable and accurate.  It has sliding glass doors on the sides and the top, so all sides are closed when weighing.  It was worth the investment for me, b/c it calms my anxiety about inaccuracy.

 

A liquid would be uniform - but if making the liquid daily, then the concentration will vary up to 10% just like the tablet it came from.  If making a 2 wk supply all at once, that would certainly reduce the variation b/w batches.  As you get very low though, one tablet might be enough for quite a few days of doses...so there would be more variation between liquid batches again.  Maybe that could explain some of the worsening as people get lower?  If using an Rx liquid that is already made...well, that's the most consistent and accurate as far as liquids are concerned.

 

Anyway, I hit 1.5mg Librium (0.6mg V equiv) today and ready to be done w/ this nightmare!

[[Co...]]

Ah...yes, I see.  Tablets may not be uniform.  A powder is uniform and Bob's method of crushing the tabs into a powder and stirring to make it uniform would get around the non-uniform tablet issue.  I agree with how he crushes many/several tablets at once to make his uniform powder mixture...b/c each individual tablet can vary up to 10% in active ingredient.

 

Librium comes as a powder in a capsule already....making it super easy to dry MT.  I just open the capsule, pour the amt I need into an empty capsule (using the scale to weigh). I make about a week's worth at one sitting.  Yes, I bought my lab scale online.  It goes to 0.0001g and does not give different readings.  It is stable and accurate.  It has sliding glass doors on the sides and the top, so all sides are closed when weighing.  It was worth the investment for me, b/c it calms my anxiety about inaccuracy.

 

A liquid would be uniform - but if making the liquid daily, then the concentration will vary up to 10% just like the tablet it came from.  If making a 2 wk supply all at once, that would certainly reduce the variation b/w batches.  As you get very low though, one tablet might be enough for quite a few days of doses...so there would be more variation between liquid batches again.  Maybe that could explain some of the worsening as people get lower?  If using an Rx liquid that is already made...well, that's the most consistent and accurate as far as liquids are concerned.

 

Anyway, I hit 1.5mg Librium (0.6mg V equiv) today and ready to be done w/ this nightmare!

 

 

Thanks !

You have reached a low dose.

Congratulations!

Good Luck

I hope I can get a lab scale delivered in my country.

[[...]]

Ah...yes, I see.  Tablets may not be uniform.  A powder is uniform and Bob's method of crushing the tabs into a powder and stirring to make it uniform would get around the non-uniform tablet issue.  I agree with how he crushes many/several tablets at once to make his uniform powder mixture...b/c each individual tablet can vary up to 10% in active ingredient.

 

Librium comes as a powder in a capsule already....making it super easy to dry MT.  I just open the capsule, pour the amt I need into an empty capsule (using the scale to weigh). I make about a week's worth at one sitting.  Yes, I bought my lab scale online.  It goes to 0.0001g and does not give different readings.  It is stable and accurate.  It has sliding glass doors on the sides and the top, so all sides are closed when weighing.  It was worth the investment for me, b/c it calms my anxiety about inaccuracy.

 

A liquid would be uniform - but if making the liquid daily, then the concentration will vary up to 10% just like the tablet it came from.  If making a 2 wk supply all at once, that would certainly reduce the variation b/w batches.  As you get very low though, one tablet might be enough for quite a few days of doses...so there would be more variation between liquid batches again.  Maybe that could explain some of the worsening as people get lower?  If using an Rx liquid that is already made...well, that's the most consistent and accurate as far as liquids are concerned.

 

Anyway, I hit 1.5mg Librium (0.6mg V equiv) today and ready to be done w/ this nightmare!

That is a very interesting point you have.

If tablets can vary, tablet to tablet by 10%, it would explain why some, who only make one day's liquid dose at a time, are having troubles.

[[te...]]

If that’s the case why are we not affected when we take pills on a regular basis of each pill can be different , why is it only an issue when we are lowering ?