Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[Guest [vi...]]

Just did that very thing. Held for 3 weeks because of symptoms and because I new some big stress was coming. Back to cutting now. Same rate, but we'll see. Might need to slow down to 5%.

 

I've held for three weeks because of benzo belly. Well, I think it's brought 50 percent relief but it seems to have plateaued and for the last ten days shows no further signs of letting up. I have no other symptom and my very first month of DLMT was a very positive and pleasant experience. What would you do in my position? Wait more or resume? My quandary is -  waiting more is not guaranteed to lead to further resolution (unless I wait a year!) and then who knows if this isn't some GI malaise unconnected with withdrawal?

[[ka...]]

I would resume, you can even ease into your resumed DLMT if you are concerned. 

HEY GARD - so sorry about the computer issues!!! always a pleasure to see you on the forum. you make me smile.

[Guest [vi...]]

I would resume, you can even ease into your resumed DLMT if you are concerned. 

 

Thanks kassey. That's what I was thinking too. Thanks for the validation. I'll resume from Monday when I am back to base.

[[...]]

For those of you tapering Librium, what rate are you cutting at?

Do you go by Ashton's conversion rate of 1mg Valium = 2.5 mg Librium?

 

Did you start MT at a lower rate and ramp up- if so what rate did you start at?

 

Gard - you're cutting twice a wk- how many mg each time? Do you find it any different from daily cutting? Easier/harder/same?

[Guest [vi...]]

Libr, I just concluded my first month of tapering librium. It was comfortable. My goal is to cut 2.5 mg every month (DLMT) till I get symptomatic. I did not have to hold in my last 2.5 mg taper.

[[Li...]]

GARDENER...good luck to you!  I've learned so much! 

 

Vineet...sorry you aren't feeling so well.  I don't know what Benzo Belly is but it doesn't sound good...especially for someone like me who has Celiac disease and Lymphocytic colitis.  I hope you can proceed at the same rate you are going but you may eventually have to go slower....slow and steady wins the race they say.  Just all the experiences I have gathered from my FB group.  Anyhow, I wish you the best of luck getting off this evil med. 

 

I've heard the lower I get with Librium of 5 mgs, the slower I'll have to go but will start at 5% per month reduction.  I'm having a hard time getting stable after getting off all my hormones..has been a nightmare.  I think I should be back on them in order to get of the Librium ...it's all just a conundrum. 

 

 

[[Ul...]]

Do MTers hold if sick? If so, do you find holding makes it harder to start tapering again. Do you start back at your same rate you were on or do you have to start slower? If you don't hold, do you find if you keep tapering while sick, it makes things even worse? I'm new at MT and got sick and held 3 non-consecutive days but even though the illness is better, my w/d sxs are not back to baseline- should I hold until I go back to baseline? I'm cutting only a tiny amt each day but I don't want things to get worse.

 

Also I'm in the process of Ramping up my rate since I'm new at MT. If I hold now, when I resume, can I resume at my current rate? And how long do I do that rate before I can ramp up? I've been thinking two wks- but should I do a consecutive two wks after the hold?

 

Thank you!

I hold when needed. If you find the right rate, you can go for quite some time without holding as you are keeping up with your body's rate of healing.  It never hurts to hold every so often just to be on the safe side IMO. You can resume at the same rate if that rate was not bringing on too many symptoms.  --V

 

Just did that very thing. Held for 3 weeks because of symptoms and because I new some big stress was coming. Back to cutting now. Same rate, but we'll see. Might need to slow down to 5%.

 

Big stress is right, Gard!! Speaking of that, we're sitting right in the path of the massive Category 5 Hurricane Irma. We have to evacuate, and just the thought of having to carry all of my med mixing stuff with me is overwhelming. We're not expecting our house to be there when we get back (gotta love 185 mph winds), but hoping and praying for a miracle. If you never hear from me again, it's because I've been blown to South Asia   Crap! Guess I won't be cutting for a while, huh? 

 

Jeff

[[Ki...]]

Oh dear Jeff, hope it just decides to stay out in the water. Evacuating is terrible- its bad enough for a few counties but geez it looks like all of Florida will be leaving. Hopefully she will decide to head north a little early. Good luck!

[[Li...]]

Oh no Jeff!  I'm in Houston and we just got over Harvey!  I hadn't started tapering yet but I'm withdrawing from another med so it was difficult.  We didn't flood thank goodness.

 

I pray you don't get a direct hit from the storm.  Glad you are evacuating and hope you get lucky and don't get too much damage.  Stay safe!  It's been a wicked hurricane season!

[[...]]

Lib18- why did you stop the hormones CT? Was it causing a problem? Are you having withdrawals from stopping it? I've heard a lot abt biodentical hormones. What cut rate do you plan to start with? 5 mg is nice and low!  I think you'll do very well.

 

Vineet- wow that's good speed you did although I think you said you are holding over 3 wks now. So I guess that makes the average rate at about 0.042 or so. Glad it wasn't too bad though.

 

For all those in hurricane paths- stay safe!

[Guest [vi...]]

Vineet- wow that's good speed you did although I think you said you are holding over 3 wks now. So I guess that makes the average rate at about 0.042 or so. Glad it wasn't too bad though.

 

For all those in hurricane paths- stay safe!

 

I'm not sure how you arrived at 0.042. Actually I am only following a round figure and not Ashton cos as per Ashton I should have tapered 20 mgs in a couple of months and there is no way on earth I could have done that  - esp. not by cut and hold, maybe yes by DLMT but I am not that ambitious!  2.5 mg per month is a round figure that I will follow... till I can no longer follow it!

 

I would have continued tapering but I held as an experiment to see if my only symptom (more of a nuisance like a torn ligament than a malaise) would let up - it won't.

 

I have a vague inspiration in Oscar and newrain. See Oscar's signature - he lost 70 percent in 7 months starting at 30 mgs (after which he went into a five year deep-thought period during which time he composed hundreds of super lengthy cogitations or deep-posts for BB and then left for an indefinite vacation or hold... we await his return). Newrain was an even more curious case. I think she tapered off 15 mg in three months and was laughing, chatting and joking here all through the journey. And that's a surprise considering her history! You can read her traumatic history here (posted in another id called purplerain) - http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=46322.0

[[Li...]]

Libr....I was taking birth control pills for years...like half my life.  I had started up with them again at the age of 33 and at 50 my GYN wanted me off to check my hormones levels...of course they were non-existent.  He immediately put me on BioIdenticals, 200mg Progesterone and Estradiol/Testosterone pellets.  The 200mg of Prog. made me feel drunk and I questioned my GYN and pharmacist on whether this was safe to take with my other sedating type of meds (Librium/Elavil).  They said it was okay.  Four weeks later I had my first panic attack and went to the ER....thought it was the Prog. so asked doctor to cut it down to 100mg but my Testosterone had gone from 6 to 238...yikes! I grew hair everywhere and became aggressive with anxiety...told doc I wasn't interested in being in a Transgender state...lol.  So I did good somewhat on 100mg of Prog. but then started getting lightheaded...which is usually a WD symptom for me.  Then read that Progesterone works on the Gaba receptors in the brain just like Benzos do...there is lots of internet research on it.  So I think I was hitting tolerance for the first time ever. But I don't know if I'll ever know for sure. So I stopped it all cold turkey..didn't know any other way to stop hormones.  I went into WD within 4 days...boaty feeling in the head, head/eye pressure, neck tension, brain zaps, lightheaded and anxiety.  These can be signs of low hormones tho so I had them checked and they weren't low at all.  So I was going through benzo type of withdrawals and now most of the symptoms have abated except my jaw pain has come back.  In my experience, the Bio's were just too potent for me right now.  There is a lady on here that is the same as me and eventually got to get on Bio's but that was a few years later after recovering from WD from K.  I have to get off my Librium now as no doc will prescribe it to me other than hopefully my old neuro doc who gave it to me years ago.  I hope to get on Bio's again but I will have to heal first.  I will get back on BC pills as I felt awesome on them and they will hopefully get me through the WD symptoms.  But no Bio's for me as it was too potent for my Benzo brain.  I've only ever taken 5 mgs of Librium at night so I will do a 5% reduction over a 30-day period....hopefully this rate will work for me.  I need to get stabilized on my BC pills again then will taper as I hear that switching from pill to liquid may feel like a small cut.  Sorry so long but hoped I answered your question. 

 

BTW...my hormones now have bottomed out I'm sure but I'm having labs done next week.  I can't go through WD with my hormone levels being non-existent.  My Progesterone has got to be about 0 by now.  So sad.

 

Vineet...thanks for posting Newrains blog....wow, to get through all this laughing and joking would be great.  15 mgs in 3 months is way fast so I'm surprised but shows how we are all so different.  Some people in my group are bed bound....good lord please don't let that happen to me.  I need to quit reading the horror stories. 

[Guest [vi...]]

Vineet...thanks for posting Newrains blog....wow, to get through all this laughing and joking would be great.  15 mgs in 3 months is way fast so I'm surprised but shows how we are all so different.  Some people in my group are bed bound....good lord please don't let that happen to me.  I need to quit reading the horror stories.

 

yes. she also adjusted to a massive reduction in her dose (but it followed a few weeks of CT -- i've seen several such cases here but they were always reinstatements after a few weeks at a drastically lower dose and not a cut in the sense we mean it when we do a cut and hold <--- someone should explore this method and patent it as a method for a quick taper from a high dose -- joking for there is no guarantee that the reinstatement will work, and if it doesn't then there isn't a guarantee that even a double of the original dose will!).

 

no one should have to suffer, really. not even sinners like me. i will pray you continue to have a smooth taper off your librium!

[[Ul...]]

Oh dear Jeff, hope it just decides to stay out in the water. Evacuating is terrible- its bad enough for a few counties but geez it looks like all of Florida will be leaving. Hopefully she will decide to head north a little early. Good luck!

 

Thanks Kitty!! We'll take the luck

 

Jeff

[[Ul...]]

Oh no Jeff!  I'm in Houston and we just got over Harvey!  I hadn't started tapering yet but I'm withdrawing from another med so it was difficult.  We didn't flood thank goodness.

 

I pray you don't get a direct hit from the storm.  Glad you are evacuating and hope you get lucky and don't get too much damage.  Stay safe!  It's been a wicked hurricane season!

 

I can relate to Harvey. I'm originally from New Orleans, so I grew up with some big ones. Katrina was a life-changer. Best of luck to you!!! You actually DID start tapering...you're tapering from Harvey

[[ga...]]

Just did that very thing. Held for 3 weeks because of symptoms and because I new some big stress was coming. Back to cutting now. Same rate, but we'll see. Might need to slow down to 5%.

 

I've held for three weeks because of benzo belly. Well, I think it's brought 50 percent relief but it seems to have plateaued and for the last ten days shows no further signs of letting up. I have no other symptom and my very first month of DLMT was a very positive and pleasant experience. What would you do in my position? Wait more or resume? My quandary is -  waiting more is not guaranteed to lead to further resolution (unless I wait a year!) and then who knows if this isn't some GI malaise unconnected with withdrawal?

I sure wish I knew.    I have the same problems sorting out my health problems from my w/d problems. I try this and that and am never 100% sure except I know the very long hold helped me. The short holds are more of a mystery to me. Maybe V will come and give advice.

[[ga...]]

I would resume, you can even ease into your resumed DLMT if you are concerned. 

HEY GARD - so sorry about the computer issues!!! always a pleasure to see you on the forum. you make me smile.

 

Hi Kasey. Good to see you, too! This computer lag is making me want to the darn thing.  I'm so tempted!

[[ga...]]

For those of you tapering Librium, what rate are you cutting at?

Do you go by Ashton's conversion rate of 1mg Valium = 2.5 mg Librium?

 

Did you start MT at a lower rate and ramp up- if so what rate did you start at?

 

Gard - you're cutting twice a wk- how many mg each time? Do you find it any different from daily cutting? Easier/harder/same?

 

Oh dear, I no longer think in mg. But I do know when my daughter and I  figured out my rate, we aimed for 7%/month. I know we did it but I can't remember a bit about how we did it. I've had terrible memory problems since my first dose of Xanax which only seems to get worse with time. So every cut for every day is written down on a card on my kitchen counter that I look at every time I pull and pitch. But it's all in ml.

 

It's hard to compare my DLMT to twice/weekly because I did most of my DLMT on Xanax. By the time I switched to L I was such a mess I remember very little about that time.

 

After my long hold, I went to twice/week out of laziness. I can use a bigger syringe and make fewer pulls. Twice/week is so-so. I still have some rough days. Like right now it's pretty rough. But I also have some new life stress, so who knows. What I do is cut twice/week for a few weeks and then hold for a week to make sure I don't get ahead of myself. I think it may be time to refigure my plan to see if I have exceeded my 7%. Actually, that would mean my daughter refiguring my plan. I no longer trust my math.

[[ga...]]

Do MTers hold if sick? If so, do you find holding makes it harder to start tapering again. Do you start back at your same rate you were on or do you have to start slower? If you don't hold, do you find if you keep tapering while sick, it makes things even worse? I'm new at MT and got sick and held 3 non-consecutive days but even though the illness is better, my w/d sxs are not back to baseline- should I hold until I go back to baseline? I'm cutting only a tiny amt each day but I don't want things to get worse.

 

Also I'm in the process of Ramping up my rate since I'm new at MT. If I hold now, when I resume, can I resume at my current rate? And how long do I do that rate before I can ramp up? I've been thinking two wks- but should I do a consecutive two wks after the hold?

 

Thank you!

I hold when needed. If you find the right rate, you can go for quite some time without holding as you are keeping up with your body's rate of healing.  It never hurts to hold every so often just to be on the safe side IMO. You can resume at the same rate if that rate was not bringing on too many symptoms.  --V

 

Just did that very thing. Held for 3 weeks because of symptoms and because I new some big stress was coming. Back to cutting now. Same rate, but we'll see. Might need to slow down to 5%.

 

Big stress is right, Gard!! Speaking of that, we're sitting right in the path of the massive Category 5 Hurricane Irma. We have to evacuate, and just the thought of having to carry all of my med mixing stuff with me is overwhelming. We're not expecting our house to be there when we get back (gotta love 185 mph winds), but hoping and praying for a miracle. If you never hear from me again, it's because I've been blown to South Asia   Crap! Guess I won't be cutting for a while, huh? 

 

Jeff

 

Oh dear, Jeff! I've been offline a few days. I'm so sorry about your having to evacuate. Please come back and tell us you're OK! I will be watching the hurricane news and worrying!

 

Gard

[[He...]]

Hi everyone,

 

Just thought I'dput my experience in here.

I've been micro tapering for three months now.

I call it a daily liquid micro taper but it really isn't. I cut .005 every two days. I think I found the rate that is right for me because I have very few and very mild wdsx. And if I do feel one coming on, I will just hold for another day or two. That usually puts me back in sync with my brain's healing needs.

 

Just like Valley um said, if you go slow and listen to your body, you will find the right rate fir yourself.

 

Also V has taught me, that there is no right or wrong when it comes to your micro taoer. You have to readjust as you go. I oknow I can't do more than 5% a month. I'm a real turtle! But at least I can go to work and live my life and carry on my normal activities. No need. To rush!

 

Good luck to you all with your micro tapers.

Heath

[[Li...]]

Heathcliff,

 

Thanks for sharing.  I haven't started the tapering yet but I do plan on doing 5% to start out with and prepare to go lower if I have to.  I'm happy to hear that your micro taper is going so well..I do think the slower the better.  Turtle here too I'm sure. 

 

Good luck to you too.  I go to another doctor tomorrow in hopes of getting a doctor to prescribe this evil med to me so I can taper of slowly...think he will tho. 

[[ga...]]

Hi Heath.  Good to see you. 

 

I think it's a good thing to notice that liquid microtapers don't have to be daily cuts. The thread title says daily because that's what Sharkey was doing. I used to do daily when on X, but I have found that cutting every 3-4 days works for me on L. Some people cut daily or every other day or every 3 days or similar.  Even so, I think they're all still a "microtaper."  The cut size is still very small compared to the traditional Ashton cut. I just plain don't have the nerve to try an Ashton-sized cut!

 

Gard

[[Ca...]]

Hi Heath.  Good to see you. 

 

I think it's a good thing to notice that liquid microtapers don't have to be daily cuts. The thread title says daily because that's what Sharkey was doing. I used to do daily when on X, but I have found that cutting every 3-4 days works for me on L. Some people cut daily or every other day or every 3 days or similar.  Even so, I think they're all still a "microtaper."  The cut size is still very small compared to the traditional Ashton cut. I just plain don't have the nerve to try an Ashton-sized cut!

 

Gard

Yeah, dont rush to try..!!  What 0.25v cut does to me is just not nice... 

Just a HI, Hope you are holding up ok...

 

[[bu...]]

Hi Heath.  Good to see you. 

 

I think it's a good thing to notice that liquid microtapers don't have to be daily cuts. The thread title says daily because that's what Sharkey was doing. I used to do daily when on X, but I have found that cutting every 3-4 days works for me on L. Some people cut daily or every other day or every 3 days or similar.  Even so, I think they're all still a "microtaper."  The cut size is still very small compared to the traditional Ashton cut. I just plain don't have the nerve to try an Ashton-sized cut!

 

Gard

 

The real point of a microtaper, as opposed to C&H, is a microtaper is a series of gradual reductions.

That's why folks really shouldn't get all hung up on "accurac", or "precision".  If you begin at one level, make a series of gradual cuts, and arrive at a lower level, that's all that matters.

[[fl...]]

Okay, my head is spinning, but I'm so grateful for this support group.  I'm getting ready to start tapering .5 mg klonopin. There seem to be two different ways to do this: reducing at a constant rate of the same dosage, say .07 a day (maybe holding at a certain dosage longer), OR reducing at a constant percentage of what's left.  Is this right?  In the first method, of course, the cut becomes a bigger and bigger percentage of what's left, so at some point, maybe, one stops with the former method and begins the latter method, so as to slow it down?