Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[Su...]]

SS, I think I found builder's directions on another thread. Is this what you're doing?

 

Dissolve 20 X .25mg tablets (5mg) in 10ml vodka or propylene glycol

 

Add 40ml water.

 

You now have 50ml liquid, .1mg per ml.  At your current dosage (.44mg) this will be approx a 12-14 day supply.

 

.44 x 10% = .044

.044/10 days=.0044mg/day  (round down to .004)

 

Your daily dose schedule will be...

 

.44mg    4.4ml

.436        4.36ml

.432        4.32ml

.428        4.28ml

etc...

 

Just lower you dose .004mg (.04ml) each day.

yes thats it!

[[Su...]]

One more thing.  I used Tequila instead of vodka, as I had some, but I figure alcohol is alcohol.  The first day I took .44

then I took .438 as I factored the Valium into the mix. 

I just took my daily allotment of Xanax that I usually take for sleep and feel so much better.  It's as though i wasn't getting any meds in me the other way.

I squirt directly into my mouth -- had my partner (who still has a brain!) check my measurements...

 

I still want to try this method if I can figure out what the hell I did wrong.

Also I think I'll use pills and liquid so that if something goes south I'm not as wretched as I was today.

Thanks for your help Gard!

SS

[[bu...]]

One more thing.  I used Tequila instead of vodka, as I had some, but I figure alcohol is alcohol.  The first day I took .44

then I took .438 as I factored the Valium into the mix. 

 

SS

 

.44/.438 mgs of benzo, or mls of liquid?

 

Your dose should have been 4.4ml, and 4.36ml

 

If you only took .44ml and .436ml, you were way under-dosed.

[[ga...]]

SS, first, answer builder's question. Wrong measurements would be a HUGE problem.

 

I think Tequila is 80 proof, so I think you're good with that. I've never used it, but 80 proof is what I see used all over the place here. I use 80 proof vodka.

 

Glad you're feeling better with your rescue dose.

[[Su...]]

One more thing.  I used Tequila instead of vodka, as I had some, but I figure alcohol is alcohol.  The first day I took .44

then I took .438 as I factored the Valium into the mix. 

 

SS

 

.44/.438 mgs of benzo, or mls of liquid?

 

Your dose should have been 4.4ml, and 4.36ml

 

If you only took .44ml and .436ml, you were way under-dosed.

No I took 4.44ml of liquid and then 4.40ml of liquid, I didn't make that information clear, so that's not the issue here. But I still feel like I'm super undosed. 

Could the Tequila be making the difference?  Or?

It felt like I had almost c/t.

I didn't mix up the concentrate much, would that make a difference?

I'm doing something very wrong....

Is the proportion that you originally suggested accurate?  The method just makes so much sense to me!

I was trying to dry cut a tiny amount off each tablet before this....

 

Any help would be appreciated guys and thanks!

 

[[ga...]]

I really don't know about the Tequila, but if you want to be better safe than sorry, do it the way everybody else does it.

 

Here's a typical method:

 

1. Dissolve in 80 proof vodka. Let tablets sit until completely dissolved. Swish it around after they all look dissolved just to make sure. (Some people crush with mortar and pestle to be extra sure. If so, I recommend glass mortar and pestle. I empty capsules, so I defer on this one. Ask on the titration thread?)

 

2. I use an oral syringe for measuring the vodka. Make sure to tap out the bubbles. You can find youtube views on measuring with an oral syringe. If the syringe has a tip, the part in the tip is not part of the dose. Again, if you are unsure, find a youtube video done by a nurse or similar.

 

3. Add water. I use a graduated cylinder I got on amazon to measure my water. I found a video that showed how to measure accurately with a graduated cylinder or any marked cylinder. You could use an oral syringe, too. I add a lot more water so find the cylinder easier. Whichever works best for you is what's best.

 

4. Shake, don't stir. If your benzo is not dissolved, stirring around and around can cause a vortex and cause the medication to be unevenly distributed.

 

5. Store in a kitchen cupboard (dark, room temp place) for 5-7 days. There has been some discussion about medication precipitating (falling) out of solution at low temperatures.

 

If I am at all fuzzy, I have my daughter mix up my med and measure my med. I often ask her to "check my mark" which means make sure I have the graduated cylinder actually filed to the correct line. Do you have anyone to follow along and check your measurements? My daughter caught me a few times missing my mark.

 

Can you pitch this dose out and start over or will you be short of pills?

 

Both X and V come as a liquid that you only have to dilute. Might your doctor be willing to prescribe the liquid? It's already dissolved. It's easier.

 

(Should have said they come as a liquid in the USA.)

[[Su...]]

Hi Gard,

Thanks for your reply.  So my method seems to be correct.  I'm using 1ml and 10 ml oral syringes to measure the liquids.  The only thing different from your instructions is that I didn't shake or stir the mixture up before I took it, thinking that the residue on the bottom was all filler.  Apparently not!

I need to count my pills to see if I have enough to try another mixture with vodka instead of tequila, but I'm a bit gunshy at the moment.

 

I'm in Canada so I'm not sure if I could get liquid X, but I can see.  My doc is pretty supportive of the whole thing.

 

I'm a bit unsure as to what to do today as I think it's kind of like I missed a days meds.  Do I take more today to make up for it?  Do I  sit and hold going back to the .44 and wait until I stabilize again?  I'm very symptomatic this morning and would like to get back to where I was.

I know you can only offer an opinion -- but it seems like you've been at this longer than I have -- the choice is always mine to make based on information I glean from sources.

 

Thanks for your support

SS

 

[[Ca...]]

Hey SS,

Yes, I would just get stable for now... last tablet dose type thing...

 

I hesitate to post on this, as I am a strong supporter of DLMT... -And have no clear answers...

-But for whatever reasons, The transition doesnt seem to go so smoothly for some of us...

 

There will be a way, of that im sure... I suspect a slower transition...

 

I tried for 2 weeks at a full liquid of 2V after holding and thinking I was fairly stable. I didnt taper on liquid at all... I got SX that I have never had before or since... so I suspect it is a personal trait for some of us, and can see that being my case...

It works too well for too many people for it to be an inherant problem with liquid itself...

Yet for some of us... (Pls dont say placebo, -i will cry..!!)

 

I have been meaning to try again, but havnt had the need yet... I might make it my next "experiment"... (Gard, -I saw u roll your eyes..!!)

 

Pls dont give up hope, -I can see your determination, and it will be worth it... Just take a breath and get comfortable again while we work out the next step...

 

Others that had transition "hick ups" might chime in...

 

My best wishes...

 

Ps, I got better within a day or so of resuming tablets...

 

-sorry, need sleep... (3:30 am here)

 

 

[[ga...]]

Hi Gard,

Thanks for your reply.  So my method seems to be correct.  I'm using 1ml and 10 ml oral syringes to measure the liquids.  The only thing different from your instructions is that I didn't shake or stir the mixture up before I took it, thinking that the residue on the bottom was all filler.  Apparently not!

I need to count my pills to see if I have enough to try another mixture with vodka instead of tequila, but I'm a bit gunshy at the moment.

 

I'm in Canada so I'm not sure if I could get liquid X, but I can see.  My doc is pretty supportive of the whole thing.

 

I'm a bit unsure as to what to do today as I think it's kind of like I missed a days meds.  Do I take more today to make up for it?  Do I  sit and hold going back to the .44 and wait until I stabilize again?  I'm very symptomatic this morning and would like to get back to where I was.

I know you can only offer an opinion -- but it seems like you've been at this longer than I have -- the choice is always mine to make based on information I glean from sources.

 

Thanks for your support

SS

 

SS, no, only if you think your med is not dissolved, then you must shake each time. But if it is, then you shouldn't have to. It sounds to me like your med is dissolved and the stuff on the bottom is binders and fillers. Shaking can't hurt. Some people do it to be on the safe side.

 

I once missed 3 doses of Xanax and picked up where I left off without replacing them. Then I made no cuts for the rest of the week. That's what my doctor told me to do so I did it.

 

If you quickly up-dose back to your stable dose, odds are good that you will stabilize again. I guess that's what I would do. And give this some more thought while you wait.

 

I know some think the tablets to liquid switch problem is placebo effect. Others seem to have some problem with liquids that is hard to explain by placebo. I have had very little trouble switching between the two, so I am no judge. I just know some people give up and go back to tablets. And I so much despise cutting tablets that I would have to be very, very desperate to go back to that! Other people have no trouble cutting tablets. So each person has to figure out their own, unique path. But each person eventually does. It just seems to take quite awhile to do that in many cases.

 

Don't give up. Stabilize. Explore your options. Give it some thought. Maybe try just one very small cut and stay there for a few days if you're feeling gun-shy. Or just dissolve and make no changes and wait a week. You'll find your way!

 

Gard

 

P.S. I'm no chemist, so if Anne says shake, then I would shake!

[[ga...]]

 

I have been meaning to try again, but havnt had the need yet... I might make it my next "experiment"... (Gard, -I saw u roll your eyes..!!)

 

-sorry, need sleep... (3:30 am here)

 

   

 

I cannot believe you think I would roll my eyes!

 

Pay no attention to that turtle behind the curtain!

 

[[Su...]]

Hey SS,

Yes, I would just get stable for now... last tablet dose type thing...

 

I hesitate to post on this, as I am a strong supporter of DLMT... -And have no clear answers...

-But for whatever reasons, The transition doesnt seem to go so smoothly for some of us...

 

There will be a way, of that im sure... I suspect a slower transition...

 

I tried for 2 weeks at a full liquid of 2V after holding and thinking I was fairly stable. I didnt taper on liquid at all... I got SX that I have never had before or since... so I suspect it is a personal trait for some of us, and can see that being my case...

It works too well for too many people for it to be an inherant problem with liquid itself...

Yet for some of us... (Pls dont say placebo, -i will cry..!!)

 

I have been meaning to try again, but havnt had the need yet... I might make it my next "experiment"... (Gard, -I saw u roll your eyes..!!)

 

Pls dont give up hope, -I can see your determination, and it will be worth it... Just take a breath and get comfortable again while we work out the next step...

 

Others that had transition "hick ups" might chime in...

 

My best wishes...

 

Ps, I got better within a day or so of resuming tablets...

 

-sorry, need sleep... (3:30 am here)

 

thanks for this Cant Fly!

It just didn't make sense to me that I was having the reaction I was, but knowing that others' have had issues helps.  The logic of the method makes lots of sense but there's something in the biology....

BTW I'd never roll my eyes at any experimentation:  Anything with some sound research or substance to it and I'm game..

Homeopathy? yup

Osteopathy?  yup

Naturopathy? yup (but not as helpful)

The only thing I'm super careful around is supplements as so many brought on weird and disturbing symptoms....

Today is a much better day although I'm hanging on by the skin...  went back to tablets last night.  Now what to do with the remaining liquid!  May try a some tablet some liquid kinda approach....

Hope you had a good sleep!

SS

[[ga...]]

SS, Cant was accusing me of rolling my eyes!

 

Since I became a mod, he likes to follow me around and pick on me. He is very much enjoying himself.  Ah well, he is stuck with C14 and he has to amuse himself somehow, so you "can't" blame him.  I only have C24 living with me! C24 is actually useful, though prone to melodramatics.

 

He also speaks in Aussie code, or maybe Cant code. If you follow him around you have some hope of learning the code and figuring out what he is talking about.

I do not pick on him. I did not force him to marry BG on her blog. I only supplied the cake. I am innocent!

 

Gard

[[ga...]]

Now that we have Cant under control....SS, I'm very glad you are seeing some improvement. That's a good sign.

 

Lots of people do their dosing as part tablet and part as liquid. I take each of my doses as part capsule and part liquid. (L only comes in capsules here.)

 

It's true that lots of people have trouble with liquid and it's a mystery. I hope you are able to work it out and figure out what will work for you. Keep us posted!

 

Gard

[[Su...]]

Now that we have Cant under control....SS, I'm very glad you are seeing some improvement. That's a good sign.

 

Lots of people do their dosing as part tablet and part as liquid. I take each of my doses as part capsule and part liquid. (L only comes in capsules here.)

 

It's true that lots of people have trouble with liquid and it's a mystery. I hope you are able to work it out and figure out what will work for you. Keep us posted!

 

Gard

 

Thanks Gard!  Funny how I didn't ready that Cant was think YOU were rolling your eyes.... funny!

And yes one of life's little mysteries.  It's definitely not the placebo as i didn't even know that some people have trouble with liquid!  I was perplexed for sure!  Medicine = medicine was all I could come up with.  I've been scratching my head as to what the hell i could have done wrong!

 

If I try this again,  and I do have lots of liquid left I will try a part tablet, part liquid form.

Thanks for the info on missing doses too.

I hope that your day goes well and that we all get off this sh-t and heal soon!

It's funny in a way.  Today I'm feeling much better but I think two weeks ago a day like today would have been seen as lousy.  I'm simply getting used to high BP and fatigue.  :laugh:

[[Su...]]

Hey SS,

Yes, I would just get stable for now... last tablet dose type thing...

 

I hesitate to post on this, as I am a strong supporter of DLMT... -And have no clear answers...

-But for whatever reasons, The transition doesnt seem to go so smoothly for some of us...

 

There will be a way, of that im sure... I suspect a slower transition...

 

I tried for 2 weeks at a full liquid of 2V after holding and thinking I was fairly stable. I didnt taper on liquid at all... I got SX that I have never had before or since... so I suspect it is a personal trait for some of us, and can see that being my case...

It works too well for too many people for it to be an inherant problem with liquid itself...

Yet for some of us... (Pls dont say placebo, -i will cry..!!)

 

I have been meaning to try again, but havnt had the need yet... I might make it my next "experiment"... (Gard, -I saw u roll your eyes..!!)

 

Pls dont give up hope, -I can see your determination, and it will be worth it... Just take a breath and get comfortable again while we work out the next step...

 

Others that had transition "hick ups" might chime in...

 

My best wishes...

 

Ps, I got better within a day or so of resuming tablets...

 

-sorry, need sleep... (3:30 am here)

 

Wow I've Just Now been reading the horror stories of DLMT Had  only expected good things to to come from this and so it's definitely not placebo.  I don't have an explanation but know that yesterday and today were pretty rough!..

This is one experiment I won't be repeating..... sadly.  It did seem like the thing I was hoping for..

But at least now I don't feel as nuts when I noticed such a strong uptick in symptoms!

We are all so different, and I wish I had the body that could use this method but apparently I don't.  Gotta go with the body I have and a method that sort of works for me.

I'm not going to speculate about what the reasons are, or argue over whether it's true or not.  i know what I experienced.

It's all grist for the mill....

[[ga...]]

Sadly, SS, there are horror stories on every board about every method. It's a matter of figuring out which works best for you. That takes a bit of trial and error. When you do figure it out, stick with it and don't read any more horror stories. This forum attracts the people who are having the most trouble. You aren't necessarily going to be one of them. In fact, if you just take it slow and listen to your body (as you have been doing), you will minimize your symptoms and have a successful taper. 

 

Gard

[[Ca...]]

Hey SS... I did want you to be aware, so you werent stressing, but in no way intended for you to be completely put off...

I could never refer to my experience as a horror story, -not even much of a story...

-Most likely, just not the right transition for me...

 

Doing it again, I would/will?...

 

Be sure im stable,

Slowly transition C/O or only take liquid for the cut portion (tablet and liquid combo)

Hold until stable.

 

But first, I will (when feeling joyous). Take the dose of vodka only (a couple of ml) 12 hours opposed to my V tablet... I will start this slowly, then transition it towards in combination with my tablets. Watching for any changes/problems...

If need be, I can repeat this with any solvent...

 

For ME, I suspect the difficulty is a reaction to the presence of alcohol, not the quantity of alcohol itself, if that makes sense...

 

Like many others on this site I cant drink. I havent since my mis-spent youth...

 

Anyways, pls consider what is best for yourself and situation, when you feel better, which I hope is real soon...

 

I hope my stumbling on your post wasnt a bad thing... I dont post here much at all...

So Best wishes into the future...

 

 

[[Su...]]

Hi Cant,

No you didn't put me off at all!!!  just provided some needed validation that I hadn't just done something wrong with the mixing!!

Thank you for posting in this as it provided much needed information.  I have since gone on line and found some evidence that liquid forms of meds do indeed interact differently with the body.  I'm good with making decisions based on information and that's what I needed.    The method still makes logical sense to me.  I hadn't considered doing a partial tablets liquid dose but will do that soon.  I don't want the mishap to put my schedule off by too much and  I still have a bunch of liquid left.

 

I think I'll see how today goes and then possibly use the liquid for my cut portion as you suggest. And take that tiny portion in the morning instead  of the evening.

 

I haven't been able to drink any alcohol since starting this taper, but the proportion of alcohol is small.  One of the reasons I chose tequila, besides the fact I had some on hand, is that is the only alcohol that doesn't give me problems.

So please "stumble" away on this or any of my posts your piping in was really helpful.

 

It's all an experiment as we are all so different, and I'm all for experimenting  :thumbsup:

Also I'm so new to forum writing, and find writing a difficult way for me to express myself without being misconstrued.  I'm getting better at it with the emoticons etc. 

I hope all goes well with you and your journey and I know mine will continue  to bump along.... and I'll see how it goes in a year or so...

SS

[[Su...]]

Sadly, SS, there are horror stories on every board about every method. It's a matter of figuring out which works best for you. That takes a bit of trial and error. When you do figure it out, stick with it and don't read any more horror stories. This forum attracts the people who are having the most trouble. You aren't necessarily going to be one of them. In fact, if you just take it slow and listen to your body (as you have been doing), you will minimize your symptoms and have a successful taper. 

 

Gard

 

Hi Gard,

I found the "horror stories" helpful around this topic as I was so confused as to why I was feeling the way I was!    I sure don't in any way want to belittle any method that folks are getting help from, it's just that I had not read anything but good stories about DLMT and was sure I had done something wrong!!    The stories helped me realize that it wasn't just me.

Oh and I am such an experimenter!    I keep reading looking trying to find something that will help or minimize the suffering.  It's just my nature ...

Thanks for your responses and all the you do!!

We'll all get there

[[an...]]

Sadly, SS, there are horror stories on every board about every method. It's a matter of figuring out which works best for you. That takes a bit of trial and error. When you do figure it out, stick with it and don't read any more horror stories. This forum attracts the people who are having the most trouble. You aren't necessarily going to be one of them. In fact, if you just take it slow and listen to your body (as you have been doing), you will minimize your symptoms and have a successful taper. 

 

Gard

 

Hi Gard,

I found the "horror stories" helpful around this topic as I was so confused as to why I was feeling the way I was!    I sure don't in any way want to belittle any method that folks are getting help from, it's just that I had not read anything but good stories about DLMT and was sure I had done something wrong!!    The stories helped me realize that it wasn't just me.

Oh and I am such an experimenter!    I keep reading looking trying to find something that will help or minimize the suffering.  It's just my nature ...

Thanks for your responses and all the you do!!

We'll all get there

 

Hi SS,

 

You can try shaking you mixture well and then quickly measure your dose. Most likely, some or all of the benzo is not staying in solution.  I do not have time to go into the whys and hows in this post--solubility is very tricky and there are too many variables. 

 

Another option which I recommend and use, is to place your 5 mg of benzo in a jar with the 10 mL of 80 proof alcohol.  Forty mL of water is not enough to keep 5 mg of benzo in solution.  The solution should have a concentration of no more than 0.01 mg/mL.  This would mean you would add 490 mL of water to the jar.  This would give you a concentration of 0.01 mg/mL.  I would still shake the liquid before measuring because again, there are many variables that can affect solubility.

 

SG57 always advised to use more water which helps the benzo stay in solution, and I agree with him 100%. You can search his posts for an explanation of why.  I advise to always shake the mixture, regardless.

 

Anne

[[ga...]]

 

Hi SS,

 

You can try shaking your mixture well and then quickly measure your dose. Most likely, some or all of the benzo is not staying in solution.  I do not have time to go into the whys and hows in this post--solubility is very tricky and there are too many variables. 

 

Another option which I recommend and use, is to place your 5 mg of benzo in a jar with the 10 mL of 80 proof alcohol.  Forty mL of water is not enough to keep 5 mg of benzo in solution.  The solution should have a concentration of no more than 0.01 mg/mL.  This would mean you would add 490 mL of water to the jar.  This would give you a concentration of 0.01 mg/mL. I would still shake the liquid before measuring because again, there are many variables that can affect solubility.

 

SG57 always advised to use more water which helps the benzo stay in solution, and I agree with him 100%. You can search his posts for an explanation of why.  I advise to always shake the mixture, regardless.

 

Anne

 

:thumbsup:

 

Think James Bond: shake, don't stir.

 

[[Su...]]

Thanks Anne and Gard,

I'll try monkeying with my solution and try that for a tiny portion of my daily meds and see how it goes from there.  Another experiment!  In some ways I wish I wasn't so up for experimenting, but like I said: It's my nature 

Tonight My benzo martini, shaken not stirred with a whiff of tequila  .

I hope you all are doing well!

SS

 

[[Ki...]]

Benzo martini sounds SO much more attractive than "those stupid pills" doesnt it?

[[Su...]]

Benzo martini sounds SO much more attractive than "those stupid pills" doesnt it?

:laugh:

Now i just need a tux

 

[[ga...]]

Benzo martini sounds SO much more attractive than "those stupid pills" doesnt it?

 

Come to think of it, James Bond drank a vodka martini, shaken, not stirred. We are all so cool.