Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[po...]]

Builder

The prescription I have is only 25mg per 5mL.  my doctor only writes it for the small amount so I have to see him every month for a new script.

I have been trying to read up on this but its overwhelming.  Because I have the concentrate and only a small amount I don't know if I can do what you said.  I don't have enough of it in the bottle.

Im thinking about asking my doctor for the diluted solution when I see him Saturday.  What would be the amount I should ask for?  Do I mix it with just plain water?  From what I understand I can store the oral solution for 10 days but not the concentrate that I have now.

When you did your taper how much did you lower each day?  What tools did you use or types of syringes?  Im sorry for all these questions but Im so scared of making a mistake.  I have some time to prepare because Im going to hold here for a week or two. 

Thank you again for your help.

[[Ul...]]

Do Long holds work:  It depends on the person. For some people a long hold does help, to me a very long hold is really not a 'hold' it is letting your body acclimate to a lower dose of the benzo and you stop tapering.  After a few months you start your taper again - for some they do much better after this stable period for others once the taper begins again they are back to having s/x, then they hold again for a long time and repeat.  This process can take many years - but again there is no rush if you are able to live your life while you taper (except of course that we know continued use of benzos is not good for other reasons). 

 

For others even the above process does not help - that is even with a long hold of months they continue to have s/x and sometimes they get worse vs. better.  This process is very individual so no one knows what will help  until you try it.

 

I can only speak to what worked for me - long holds sent me into a nightmare - it was the worst I had ever felt and I even updosed.  I updosed, held my dose, and felt better, then all he#$ broke loose for me. It was then and there I was determined to get off. It was only as I got to the lower doses that my body started to recover. If I had done long holds I would still be living in a nightmare.

 

What I suggest you do is read the success stories here and also look at people's signatures to see how long they have been tapering or if they have been successful in getting off. Also you must take into account that many people on this site have been on and off other drugs or substances which may impact their taper of the benzo.  You need to take your own medical history into account when you taper.

 

Unfortunately the nature of this site is that most of us who are off and back to living our lives hardly come here anymore so you are only hearing from people still tapering or who are having issues once they are off, so the advice is skewed.  What I will say is that tapering off benzos is very hard for those of us who get s/x. It is not an experience I would ever want to repeat, but it is doable and you can live through it and get back to living your life.

 

I agree with that. Basically, it's listening to your body and doing what you truly feel is best. I think our bodies talk to us and give us signals as to what we should do. A hold can be a couple weeks or much, much longer. Whatever it takes for YOUR body to get its CNS in relative homeostasis. It also may be a temporary hold followed by a chunk of time with successful tapering, followed by another hold(s). Like SG says, "heal faster than you taper"!

 

Have a super positive day!

 

Jeff

[[po...]]

KGirl

Im so happy for you that you made it!  I had horrible GI issues during acute.  I also lost a ton of weight because I was terrified of eating the wrong thing.  My stomach looked 7 months pregnant.

Did you do a daily micro taper?  if so did you use liquid?  Im trying to figure out how to do the daily micro taper with liquid diazepam but Im a little overwhelmed with my benzo brain. 

[[bu...]]

Builder

The prescription I have is only 25mg per 5mL.  my doctor only writes it for the small amount so I have to see him every month for a new script.

I have been trying to read up on this but its overwhelming.  Because I have the concentrate and only a small amount I don't know if I can do what you said. I don't have enough of it in the bottle.

Im thinking about asking my doctor for the diluted solution when I see him Saturday.  What would be the amount I should ask for?  Do I mix it with just plain water?  From what I understand I can store the oral solution for 10 days but not the concentrate that I have now.

When you did your taper how much did you lower each day?  What tools did you use or types of syringes?  Im sorry for all these questions but Im so scared of making a mistake.  I have some time to prepare because Im going to hold here for a week or two. 

Thank you again for your help.

 

25mg per 5ml is the same as 5mg per 1ml. 

 

How many mls does your doc prescribe?  You can dilute as little or as much as you want. or have available.  As long as you add 49ml of water for each ml of your Rx liquid, your finished solution will always be .1mg per ml.

 

Yes, plain water.  Yes, you can store the diluted solution.  (I know what the label says...don't worry about it)

 

You will need a 1ml and 10ml oral syringe.  A 100ml graduated cylinder and/or a 50-60ml oral syringe will be helpful, but not required.

 

When I was at your dosage, I was tapering .020 per day.  At that rate, your schedule would be:

 

4.5mg    45ml

4.48mg    44.8ml

4.46mg    44.6ml

4.44mg    44.4ml

etc...

 

This really is NOT complicated. 

 

[[po...]]

Builder

I hope I'm not making you want to go nuts Thank you for your patience with me. 

SO tell me if Im correct if I do it this way...Each day I should add exactly 1ml of my solution plus 49 ml of water.  Then mix and only take from that mix 45ml for my daily dose.  then continue each day making a new mixture adding 1ml of diazepam to 49ml water but lower the amount I take to 44.8ml and so on each day.??  I hope Ive got it now.  Let me know if I'm wrong.  The fear of getting it wrong has some pretty severe consequences for me. 

What still scares me is this is what I was trying to do every 5 days with the pure concentrate is just lower .01 without water.  Isn't that the same thing?  How is adding water making it better?  To me it seems like it might be less exact mixing water into it.

Thank you again for your patience and help.

 

[[bu...]]

Builder

I hope I'm not making you want to go nuts Thank you for your patience with me. 

SO tell me if Im correct if I do it this way...Each day I should add exactly 1ml of my solution plus 49 ml of water.  Then mix and only take from that mix 45ml for my daily dose.  then continue each day making a new mixture adding 1ml of diazepam to 49ml water but lower the amount I take to 44.8ml and so on each day.??  I hope Ive got it now.

 

This procedure is mathematically correct.  But once again, making a new batch each day is time-consuming, more error-prone, and can be wasteful.  I would encourage you to make at least a 1 week supply at a time, and just draw your dose from that each day.

. 

  How is adding water making it better?  To me it seems like it might be less exact mixing water into it.

Thank you again for your patience and help.

 

Diluting makes measuring small amounts and changes much easier and more manageable. And it dramatically reduces the error factor.  As  practical matter, there is no reliable  way to measure out 4.48 mg with you full strength 5mg=1ml liquid.  4.48mg would be .896ml.  It will be much easier to measure out 44.8ml of diluted liquid.  And BTW, your diazepam intensol is specifically formulated for the purpose of dilution.

[[ga...]]

Builder

I hope I'm not making you want to go nuts Thank you for your patience with me. 

SO tell me if Im correct if I do it this way...Each day I should add exactly 1ml of my solution plus 49 ml of water.  Then mix and only take from that mix 45ml for my daily dose.  then continue each day making a new mixture adding 1ml of diazepam to 49ml water but lower the amount I take to 44.8ml and so on each day.??  I hope Ive got it now.

 

This procedure is mathematically correct.  But once again, making a new batch each day is time-consuming, more error-prone, and can be wasteful.  I would encourage you to make at least a 1 week supply at a time, and just draw your dose from that each day.

. 

  How is adding water making it better?  To me it seems like it might be less exact mixing water into it.

Thank you again for your patience and help.

 

Diluting makes measuring small amounts and changes much easier and more manageable. And it dramatically reduces the error factor.  As  practical matter, there is no reliable  way to measure out 4.48 mg with you full strength 5mg=1ml liquid.  4.48mg would be .896ml.  It will be much easier to measure out 44.8ml of diluted liquid.  And BTW, your diazepam intensol is specifically formulated for the purpose of dilution.

 

Yes, yes, yes!

[[HO...]]

I will be tapering soon and I'm new to all this. Do you hold when you micro taper or do you just do it every day and how much ?

[[HO...]]

Does anybody use liquid Valium from the pharmacy brand Teva I believe.

[[Ki...]]

I will be tapering soon and I'm new to all this. Do you hold when you micro taper or do you just do it every day and how much ?

Everyone is different- when I first started mt I got the impression most people reduced by .001 on the scale every day. My 11 mg of valium pills weighed .352 so I thought I would be off in a year. As it turns out I can barely do that every other day and even at that slowish rate I still have to hold a lot.

[[po...]]

 

Builder

 

When I was at your dosage, I was tapering .020 per day.  At that rate, your schedule would be:

 

4.5mg    45ml

4.48mg    44.8ml

4.46mg    44.6ml

4.44mg    44.4ml

etc...

 

This really is NOT complicated. 

 

so if I went at this rate I would be down a 1/2 mg in 26 days.  Correct?  This seems fast.  Looking at your sig Builder, it seems it took you longer to lower that amount.  Did you cut every other day or am I just not getting something???

[[bu...]]

I will be tapering soon and I'm new to all this. Do you hold when you micro taper or do you just do it every day and how much ?

 

Holds are often unnecessary with daily tapering.  If you choose a reasonable taper rate, your sxs, if any, should be manageable.  And unlike a cut-and-hold protocol, if you do become symptomatics, they will emerge gradually, and you have an opportunity to make corrections before they become significant.

[[bu...]]

Does anybody use liquid Valium from the pharmacy brand Teva I believe.

 

If you're in the US, the only mfgr of Rx liquid V is Roxane.  The best choice for tapering is Roxane Diazepam Oral Solutiom 5ml=5mg.  (1mg=1ml)

 

This is what I used.  If your doc will give a scrip for this, it is certainly the easiest way to do a liquid taper.  But even if you have to do "homebrew", the preparation is simple, and the taper procedure is the same

[[bu...]]

 

Builder

 

When I was at your dosage, I was tapering .020 per day.  At that rate, your schedule would be:

 

4.5mg    45ml

4.48mg    44.8ml

4.46mg    44.6ml

4.44mg    44.4ml

etc...

 

This really is NOT complicated. 

 

so if I went at this rate I would be down a 1/2 mg in 26 days.  Correct?  This seems fast.  Looking at your sig Builder, it seems it took you longer to lower that amount.  Did you cut every other day or am I just not getting something???

 

.02mg/day at a current dose of 4.5mg is about 4.5% per 10 days...a fairly conservative taper. 

 

Its pretty simple to lay out a slower schedule if you want to do smaller cuts.  Just plug in a smaller cut rate and follow the same calculation I did.

[[ga...]]

I will be tapering soon and I'm new to all this. Do you hold when you micro taper or do you just do it every day and how much ?

 

Holds are often unnecessary with daily tapering.  If you choose a reasonable taper rate, your sxs, if any, should be manageable.  And unlike a cut-and-hold protocol, if you do become symptomatics, they will emerge gradually, and you have an opportunity to make corrections before they become significant.

 

Yes, just make sure you are making very small cuts so you don't get ahead of yourself and you may not need holds. Also helps to make sure you are stable when you start. I did not stabilize after my crossover and paid for it with a long hold.

 

You decide how much. People generally choose to taper in the range of cutting 5-10% of their dose per month, adjusting every month. So, of you choose 5% per month, you figure out what 5% of your dose is and divide that amount by 30 (for days in the month) and cut that much every day.

 

If you give builder your numbers and what percent you want to cut, he can tell you how much to cut per day.

 

I agree starting with the liquid makes it simpler. I did it with Xanax liquid. Now I do a home brew with Librium. It's not hard after you get the hang of it. I have my directions written on a card on the kitchen counter for when I am in a cog fog. Just for an example, I empty a 5mg capsule of Librium into a bottle, dissolve it with 3ml of 80 proof vodka (measured with an oral syringe), and add 97ml of water (measured with a graduated cylinder). Shake a bit. Now I have a very dilute solution that is easy to cut by very small amounts.

 

Gard

[[HO...]]

Does anybody use liquid Valium from the pharmacy brand Teva I believe.

 

If you're in the US, the only mfgr of Rx liquid V is Roxane.  The best choice for tapering is Roxane Diazepam Oral Solutiom 5ml=5mg.  (1mg=1ml)

 

This is what I used.  If your doc will give a scrip for this, it is certainly the easiest way to do a liquid taper.  But even if you have to do "homebrew", the preparation is simple, and the taper procedure is the same

 

Thank you yes he said he would.

[[ga...]]

Does anybody use liquid Valium from the pharmacy brand Teva I believe.

 

If you're in the US, the only mfgr of Rx liquid V is Roxane.  The best choice for tapering is Roxane Diazepam Oral Solutiom 5ml=5mg.  (1mg=1ml)

 

This is what I used.  If your doc will give a scrip for this, it is certainly the easiest way to do a liquid taper.  But even if you have to do "homebrew", the preparation is simple, and the taper procedure is the same

 

Thank you yes he said he would.

[[po...]]

if I switch to the diluted oral solution of diazepam do i still have to dilute it more or can I just cut using that? 

Also does cutting .01 per day seem reasonable?  Im afraid that it will catch up with me 10 days later and get slammed.

 

[[ga...]]

if I switch to the diluted oral solution of diazepam do i still have to dilute it more or can I just cut using that? 

Also does cutting .01 per day seem reasonable?  Im afraid that it will catch up with me 10 days later and get slammed.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by the diluted oral solution of diazepam, sorry. Maybe builder does. And I will let builder do math!

[[bu...]]

if I switch to the diluted oral solution of diazepam do i still have to dilute it more or can I just cut using that? 

Also does cutting .01 per day seem reasonable?  Im afraid that it will catch up with me 10 days later and get slammed.

 

For clarification...

 

the 5mg=1ml solution is a concentrate and was formulated to be extensively diluted.

 

the 1mg=1ml solution would not be considered a "diluted" solution either.  the instructions on that label say "dilute before using..."

 

The whole principle behind using dilute liquids is it greatly simplifies measuring, make small precise dosing possible, and dramatically reduces measurement error.

 

Lets say you want to reduce by .02mg per day.  If you use a 1mg=1ml solution and misread your syring by .02ml (very easy to do) then that's a .02mg error, or an error of 100% of your planned cut.

 

But if you dilute to 1mg=10 ml and misread by .02ml, then its only .2mg, or a 10% error in the daily cut.

 

And it is obviously much easier to measure to .2ml than measure to .02ml.  Its much easier to measure out cups, than teaspoons.  The more dilute your liquid, the easier measuring and dosing will be.

 

Trying to taper with the 1mg=1ml undiluted would really not be possible.  You could probably taper with undilute 1mg=1ml, but diluting it to .1mg=1ml will be whole lot easier.

[[ga...]]

if I switch to the diluted oral solution of diazepam do i still have to dilute it more or can I just cut using that? 

Also does cutting .01 per day seem reasonable?  Im afraid that it will catch up with me 10 days later and get slammed.

 

For clarification...

 

the 5mg=1ml solution is a concentrate and was formulated to be extensively diluted.

 

the 1mg=1ml solution would not be considered a "diluted" solution either.  the instructions on that label say "dilute before using..."

 

The whole principle behind using dilute liquids is it greatly simplifies measuring, make small precise dosing possible, and dramatically reduces measurement error.

 

Lets say you want to reduce by .02mg per day.  If you use a 1mg=1ml solution and misread your syring by .02ml (very easy to do) then that's a .02mg error, or an error of 100% of your planned cut.

 

But if you dilute to 1mg=10 ml and misread by .02ml, then its only .2mg, or a 10% error in the daily cut.

 

And it is obviously much easier to measure to .2ml than measure to .02ml.  Its much easier to measure out cups, than teaspoons.  The more dilute your liquid, the easier measuring and dosing will be.

 

Trying to taper with the 1mg=1ml undiluted would really not be possible.  You could probably taper with undilute 1mg=1ml, but diluting it to .1mg=1ml will be whole lot easier.

 

So would you say she should add 99ml of water to 1ml of liquid diazepam to make a dilute enough solution? (And that's assuming she has 1 mg =1 ml to start with.)

[[bu...]]

   

 

So would you say she should add 99ml of water to 1ml of liquid diazepam to make a dilute enough solution? (And that's assuming she has 1 mg =1 ml to start with.)

 

If you diluted 1mg=100ml, you could easily measure out to .001mg precision, or even .0001mg precision.  But that kind of precision really isn't necessary (although some folks feel more confident if they do that.

 

For our purposes, a concentration of .1mg per ml works quite well, even for high-potency meds like K and Xanax.  A .1mg per ml liquid can pretty consistently measure out doses to .01-.02mg accuracy.

 

Tapering is challenging under any circumstances.  Why not give yourself any help you can.  Diluting a 10 day batch might take 2 minutes.  It's no more complicated than making a pitcher of OJ from a can of concentrate.

 

 

[[po...]]

I wish understanding this math came more easily to me.  Reading all of this gives me so much anxiety that I might do it wrong.  I do not understand how you could measure a .001 cut.  Do you need a special syringe? 

If my symptoms do not get better after another week I might updose again.  I think I need to stabilize before beginning a taper.  When I do start would someone be willing to help make a very conservative schedule for me?  maybe .01 cuts?

Some questions I have....

1. Do you need to shake your mixture very well before taking your dose? 

2. Do I need to worry I won't get the proper amount each time from my premade mixture?

3. What about lag time?  Won't these cuts eventually catch up and hit me?  What did you do when this happened?

4. Is there anyone besides Builder who has successfully done a micro taper with little to no symptoms and come off ok?  I need hope. 

 

[[bu...]]

I wish understanding this math came more easily to me.  Reading all of this gives me so much anxiety that I might do it wrong.  I do not understand how you could measure a .001 cut.  Do you need a special syringe? 

If my symptoms do not get better after another week I might updose again.  I think I need to stabilize before beginning a taper.  When I do start would someone be willing to help make a very conservative schedule for me?  maybe .01 cuts?

Some questions I have....

1. Do you need to shake your mixture very well before taking your dose? 

2. Do I need to worry I won't get the proper amount each time from my premade mixture?

3. What about lag time?  Won't these cuts eventually catch up and hit me?  What did you do when this happened?

4. Is there anyone besides Builder who has successfully done a micro taper with little to no symptoms and come off ok?  I need hope.

 

 

 

1)  You really shouldn't need to do ".001mg cuts".  You should really never need to do anything smaller than .01mg.  If you are using a .1mg=1ml liquid, then .01mg is only .1ml. Very easy to measure with a 1ml syringe.  This is why diluting makes it all so much easier.

 

2) Since it is a true solution, it probably isn't really necessary to shake or stir the liquid, but hey...why not?  I always did.  Maybe not necessary, but can't hurt.

 

3) The whole point of a daily taper is your are more closely matching body's natural recovery rate to your taper rate.  Yes, if you are trying to go too fast, it can  "catch up" with you.  But you won't get slammed, like you do with C&H.  You will most likely just notice some mild sxs emerging, and you can adjust your taper, hold, or even updose.

 

4)  Many BBs have very successfully tapered off of benzos with a daily liquid microtaper.

[[HO...]]

How do you know when to start tapering after reinstatement after 8 days. Should I wait till I have no symptoms or stable after a few months. Is sweating or flu feeling a sign of tolerance? Sorry so many questions I got burned from this stuff fast. Dependency for me happened in 4 weeks with severe withdrawals including seizure. I don't know if I should have reinstated but I had not found this site yet. Finally found a doctor that, put me on 20V, but I don't feel stable yet after a month on it. My withdrawl symptoms are life altering. Thx everyone