Is it wd, dependence or neuronal damage?

[[Bi...]]

It's not really damage.  More like a chemical imbalance of having too much intersynaptic glutamate along with not enough gabaA receptors to utilize what little gaba is available.

When I slowed my taper I started feeling healed.  I have a feeling your taper rate can not

exceed your healing rate.  The problem is in order to heal you have to cut and feel discomfort and that's OK but I hold until I am healed and that can take a month.  I have since stopped thinking that fast tapering = fast healing, just does not work that way.

[[Be...]]

I could never really understand that term "damage?"  Does it mean you can completely heal or does damage mean that it will never be the same?  Is the term "permanent damage" redundant?  If you scrape your knee, you've done damage, and there will some permanent damage, scarring, etc.  Don't want to get on the permanent damage issue again, but just trying to understand what "damage" might mean in this benzo w/d world.

[[Be...]]

I could never really understand that term "damage?"  Does it mean you can completely heal or does damage mean that it will never be the same?  Is the term "permanent damage" redundant?  If you scrape your knee, you've done damage, and there will some permanent damage, scarring, etc.  Don't want to get on the permanent damage issue again, but just trying to understand what "damage" might mean in this benzo w/d world.

[[mr...]]

I could never really understand that term "damage?"  Does it mean you can completely heal or does damage mean that it will never be the same?  Is the term "permanent damage" redundant?  If you scrape your knee, you've done damage, and there will some permanent damage, scarring, etc.  Don't want to get on the permanent damage issue again, but just trying to understand what "damage" might mean in this benzo w/d world.

Benzo's create an imbalance in the receptors which is damage because they are not firing or working correctly, but the body corrects this.

The human body fixes all kinds of damage and sometimes it leaves scars.

I guess u just have to look at the definition of damage.

the dictionary online says:

"injury or harm that reduces value or usefulness: "

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/damage

 

My mom has definitly fit that description, but she will eventually heal.

 

[[mr...]]

I have a different take on this; overall I think the media paints a much-too-short picture of drug withdrawal across the board. I've seen people struggle for months with what looks an awful lot like PAWS after cessation of marijuana, which is often regarded as a "no withdrawal" drug. I've certainly seen accounts of many months of W/D (even more than 12) from antidepressants/antipsychotics, and there's a well documented PAWS issue with opiates which can last to nearly benzo timetables for some unfortunate people. Ditto alcohol.

 

I'm not saying benzos aren't the worst, or among the worst -- the timeframe is clearly longer than opiates or ADs for most people. I don't think it's off by orders of magnitude, though.

 

Just my two cents.

Hi Spengler,

I decided to look up PAWS and it says that people can suffer years of impairment even with alcohol and opiates, so I guess I was wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-acute-withdrawal_syndrome

 

This appears to be a known term as bech has stated, so why isn't the medical community aware of this when people go to the ER?

Physicians see this when it happens to babies born from mothers on drugs, why can't it happen to prescribed adults?

I don't understand the medical blindness to these serious issues.

Maybe it's because they don't have a drug to fix it.

[[We...]]

YES..all 3

[[pr...]]

Maybe it's because they don't have a drug to fix it.

 

this is the best answer i've ever heard about. i think they would think of themselves as failed. it wouldn't be a community any longer if they started not using a drug to fux something.

 

[[mr...]]

Did some reading and found Neuroleptics aka antipsychotics are called major tranquilizers and benzo's are minor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antipsychotic

 

antipsychotics can cause irreversible brain damage.

Benzo's cause reversible brain damage for the majority.

 

They should NOT call it withdrawal but recovery from drug-induced brain damage.

 

Perhaps, we use this terminology within the clinical settings, people would get more respect for what they are going thru?

[[sp...]]

They should NOT call it withdrawal but recovery from drug-induced brain damage.

 

All drug withdrawal can be considered recovery from drug-induced brain damage* in this same way, and benzos are not the only class of drugs which can cause severe, protracted effects in susceptible individuals. What do you object to about calling this process "withdrawal"?

 

*if we're going to call structural changes to benzo receptors and excess glutamate "damage" in the case of benzo withdrawal, the same thing would apply to structural changes to opioid receptors and excess glutamate in the case of opioid withdrawal. I don't call either damage because 'brain damage' has a generally understood medical connotation which doesn't apply in this case.

 

[[Fl...]]

I don't call either damage because 'brain damage' has a generally understood medical connotation which doesn't apply in this case.

 

My question would be if the term "brain damage" doesn't apply because it has a generally understood medical connotation then I would think it would be equally as important to use proper terminology when discussing addiction and dependence.

 

Why is semantics important in one case and not the other?

[[mr...]]

I don't call either damage because 'brain damage' has a generally understood medical connotation which doesn't apply in this case.

 

My question would be if the term "brain damage" doesn't apply because it has a generally understood medical connotation then I would think it would be equally as important to use proper terminology when discussing addiction and dependence.

 

Why is semantics important in one case and not the other?

If they used the term chemical imbalance, this implies mental illness or just chemicals involved.

With benzo's, the body removes and adds receptors and down regulates a component.

The reason for a different term is because of the negative and false connotation when referring benzo w/d to addiction or withdrawal.

Antipsychotics are known to cause irreversible damage, such as tardive dyskinesia, but they refer to it as a disorder.

Benzo disorder sounds like a mental illness, so that wouldn't work either.

 

It is damage in that the body has to correct it which takes a long time.

 

 

[[sp...]]

It is damage in that the body has to correct it which takes a long time.

 

sure, but this is true of opioids, SSRIs, barbiturates, etc. Why should benzos be treated differently? They may be more likely to cause protracted problems than some other drugs, but there's nothing unique about the mechanics of it.

 

I think the problem is just that 'withdrawal' is a stigma word to start with. It shouldn't be.

[[mr...]]

It is damage in that the body has to correct it which takes a long time.

 

sure, but this is true of opioids, SSRIs, barbiturates, etc. Why should benzos be treated differently? They may be more likely to cause protracted problems than some other drugs, but there's nothing unique about the mechanics of it.

 

I think the problem is just that 'withdrawal' is a stigma word to start with. It shouldn't be.

I am not saying that they should be treated differently.

All psychiatric class medication withdrawals should be treated as damage that requires recovery.

Just as surgery requires months for recovery.

My mom was on tramadol for years, but she only went thru withdrawal for a couple weeks.

She took benzo's prn for 8 months, but needs a year to get off.

There is big difference there.

 

 

[[sp...]]

My mom was on tramadol for years, but she only went thru withdrawal for a couple weeks.

She took benzo's prn for 8 months, but needs a year to get off.

There is big difference there.

 

Yes, and overall I agree that opioids are less likely to cause protracted effects, but... some people (including several I've known) come off benzos and only have withdrawal for a couple weeks. I also know someone who had a rough go of it with tramadol and said the w/d lasted months. Everyone is different. Technically you'd have to consider Tramadol to be a 'psychiatric medication', anyway, because it's an SNRI in addition to being an opiate.

[[Fl...]]

All psychiatric class medication withdrawals should be treated as damage that requires recovery.

 

Any kind of medication that causes changes to the body should be treated as damage that requires recovery. I understand that our bodies down regulate receptors naturally so the down regulation of gaba receptors by a drug isn't seen as "brain damage" in the classic sense but I don't see how anyone could argue that it isn't really damage considering the fact that our bodies don't naturally down regulate receptors to the point where we would get hit with weeks or months of debilitating issues.

 

[[Ga...]]

This is kind of a touchy subject around here but if we ever want anyone to pay attention to this problem it needs to be acknowledged for what it is.

This is exactly why I brought it up.

I don't want it to scare anyone and the brain can make these repairs given proper nutrition and rest.

However, it needs to be said and everyone needs to know what they are getting into when prescribed psychotropic meds.

All these meds change our brain's chemistry and it takes TIME to get the balance back.

 

holy cow,

i was watching tv and the med commercials do tell side effects....they are so bad id be afraid to take them.

 

wish i wouldve heard w/d ones from xanax

the only think i remember seeing was: do not discontinue without dr or something.

[[Pe...]]

Did some reading and found Neuroleptics aka antipsychotics are called major tranquilizers and benzo's are minor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antipsychotic

 

antipsychotics can cause irreversible brain damage.

Benzo's cause reversible brain damage for the majority.

 

They should NOT call it withdrawal but recovery from drug-induced brain damage.

 

Perhaps, we use this terminology within the clinical settings, people would get more respect for what they are going thru?

 

mermen,

 

Interesting that you say antipsychotics cause irreversible damage.  May I ask what yr source is? 

 

I lurk around on this forum, because what I have been experiencing after c/t from a dopamin blocker (antiemetic , which is a form of an antipsychotic) is close to the experiences that those withdrawing form Benzos experience.  Unfortunately, there isn't much out there about antipsychotic withdrawals...at least in my 8+ months of research I haven't uncovered much.  I have read that antipsychotic withdrawal is easier than benzo wd, and I have also read the opposite.  At this point, since I can't find anything documented, all I can do is hope I can heal. 

 

Unfortunately, I was given this medication to help mother my child.  It was give to help aid in lactation.  It's a medication that isn't supposed to cross the bbb.  I have my doubts now.  I feel damaged.  I've lost time, valuable time which should have been spent enjoying my two small children...not bed bound for months....not home bound for months....and I sure wish I could say it was close to being over.  Unfortunately, I know it's not.  Some days I feel that healing could be around the corner soon only to get blasted with a wave that could last for weeks.  How unfortunate. 

 

Why on earth would a medical professional prescribe a medication for such purposes when there is even a remote possibility that this could happen?  Our HC system is so whacked.

 

Happy healing to all-

[[mr...]]

Did some reading and found Neuroleptics aka antipsychotics are called major tranquilizers and benzo's are minor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antipsychotic

 

antipsychotics can cause irreversible brain damage.

Benzo's cause reversible brain damage for the majority.

 

They should NOT call it withdrawal but recovery from drug-induced brain damage.

 

Perhaps, we use this terminology within the clinical settings, people would get more respect for what they are going thru?

 

mermen,

 

Interesting that you say antipsychotics cause irreversible damage.  May I ask what yr source is? 

 

I lurk around on this forum, because what I have been experiencing after c/t from a dopamin blocker (antiemetic , which is a form of an antipsychotic) is close to the experiences that those withdrawing form Benzos experience.  Unfortunately, there isn't much out there about antipsychotic withdrawals...at least in my 8+ months of research I haven't uncovered much.  I have read that antipsychotic withdrawal is easier than benzo wd, and I have also read the opposite.  At this point, since I can't find anything documented, all I can do is hope I can heal. 

 

Unfortunately, I was given this medication to help mother my child.  It was give to help aid in lactation.  It's a medication that isn't supposed to cross the bbb.  I have my doubts now.  I feel damaged.  I've lost time, valuable time which should have been spent enjoying my two small children...not bed bound for months....not home bound for months....and I sure wish I could say it was close to being over.  Unfortunately, I know it's not.  Some days I feel that healing could be around the corner soon only to get blasted with a wave that could last for weeks.  How unfortunate. 

 

Why on earth would a medical professional prescribe a medication for such purposes when there is even a remote possibility that this could happen?  Our HC system is so whacked.

 

Happy healing to all-

Just look at one on wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quetiapine

or listen to the side effects listed on the TV commercials.

[[Pe...]]

Apologies...my greeting above should read mrtmeo.  Autocorrect...go figure.

[[Bi...]]

From everything I have read this is a chemical imbalance caused by benzo's. The levels of glutamate in and around our neurons is physically higher and measurable with a brain fluid draw (brain tap)  In the strictest sense it's not the benzo's it's the glutamate that gives us all the trouble.  I know it's fashionable to scream bloody murder at the benzo's but the reason we kept taking them is they worked. We did not feel horrible at first or we would have quit then and there.  Little did we know we were screwing around with one of the most tender chemical balance's in the brain the GABA/GLUTAMATE balance.  The brain fixes the imbalance by eliminating some receptors and making changes to the available chemical levels.  You could call it neuronal damage but it's more actuate to call it neuronal changes and even chemical changes.  Damage just sounds so darn unrepairable  

I tell people I had a bad reaction to a drug and that's the truth, I did, I think we all did.

[[pr...]]

I tell people I had a bad reaction to a drug and that's the truth, I did, I think we all did.

 

i've been telling people that i have a neurological injury cause that's what it feels like. i don't feel sick per se, i feel very injured.

 

[[Bi...]]

I tell people I had a bad reaction to a drug and that's the truth, I did, I think we all did.

 

i've been telling people that i have a neurological injury cause that's what it feels like. i don't feel sick per se, i feel very injured.

 

I pretty, I know what you mean.  I felt brain damaged beyond repair.  Then I reinstated and things got better fast.  So I know benzo's can't repair brain damage so it must be the way that darn glutamate makes us feel.    The feeling of damage is so darn real but its not real.  Healing will come. Take it from me.  Not damage but just too much glutamate firing those poor neurons 24/7, someday we will all be better. Time time time.

[[pr...]]

I tell people I had a bad reaction to a drug and that's the truth, I did, I think we all did.

 

i've been telling people that i have a neurological injury cause that's what it feels like. i don't feel sick per se, i feel very injured.

 

I pretty, I know what you mean.  I felt brain damaged beyond repair.  Then I reinstated and things got better fast.  So I know benzo's can't repair brain damage so it must be the way that darn glutamate makes us feel.    The feeling of damage is so darn real but its not real.  Healing will come. Take it from me.  Not damage but just too much glutamate firing those poor neurons 24/7, someday we will all be better. Time time time.

 

yeah it is the glutamate surges inside my brain that make me feel so nauseated and sick and injured. i'm going to try this chinese herb from Dragon Herbs called Tao In A bottle next week. it has the L-theanine/green tea in it. otherwise, i've been staying away from all supplements right now to just let my brain relax and heal and not have to worry what's causing the waves.