PLEASE DON'T DRINK ALCOHOL WHEN YOU FEEL RECOVERED

[[xe...]]

1) Please explain your alcohol use in both timeline and situation in reference to this statement.

"this might be true in some cases for some people, but it's not a tautology. Alcohol did nothing but exacerbate my more severe symptoms, which is why I've discontinued intake entirely when things have been really bad. "

For most of the length of time that I was on benzos, I consumed 1-2 drinks a day on average. While I was tapering, I continued that. Overall my taper was what I'd describe as "tolerable", with a few episodes lasting from 2-6 weeks where things were much worse: constant sweating, near-complete insomnia, paralyzing fear of day to day activities, obsessive fixation with tinnitus and other physiological issues. During the first few of those periods, in every case I noticed that my anxiety would spike dramatically and predictably within an hour of consuming a single alcoholic beverage. As a result of that observation, I more or less moved into a routine where I completely discontinue alcohol intake any time that I start to see an increase in symptoms. Additionally, at least two such episodes over the past ~3 years were (I believe) directly triggered by the intake of larger amounts of alcohol, and as a result of that, I have a hard and fast limit of how much alcohol I'm willing to consume in any given 24 hour period.

 

 

2) This was actually my point. " There's no such thing as 'objective evaluation'" There should be and can easily be. Once your level of withdrawal is established more targeted help can be had.

Well, I was speaking more from a philosophical point of view. I don't believe in objective reality, period. There are things that can be quantified well enough under controlled circumstances to make repeatable observations about them, but in the case of withdrawal I don't believe it's possible to make a regression from the general case into someone's specific case because of complicating factors arising from genetics, mindstate and environmental factors. Thus, a general rule may well be "more people have an easier time withdrawing from benzos if they abstain from alcohol than don't", but that doesn't mean it's going to hold up in every case. If you dig through the post history here, you'll find a not insignificant number of people who posted after being off of benzos for an extended period (years) that they believe small amounts of alcohol were helpful to them. I do not disbelieve such accounts. Of course, it's not possible to regress from that general theme back down to a specific case, either. Thus, I think knowing yourself and knowing your own reactions should be one's best guide to this process.

 

Without measurements your statement is likely not good advise.

 

As far as I know, Ashton's work still represents the largest and most comprehensive data set we have to work with in this regard, and her conclusion was

Similarly with alcohol: a glass or two of wine is perfectly permissible (and even said by some to be advisable for health). Although it is important not to substitute increasing doses of alcohol for decreasing doses of benzodiazepines, there is no need to deny oneself small pleasures. Moderation is the key: there is no call to be puritanical.

 

If anything, that's a more liberal version of the my own viewpoint. If someone produces a comprehensive longitudinal study that's equally/more comprehensive and comes to a different conclusion, then I'll have to reconsider my view on this. Until that happens, I'm comfortable continuing to say that alcohol is something which overall is better to avoid than indulge in, but not necessarily a huge factor in this process. That is, assuming we are really talking about very moderate consumption (a drink or two at most, and not every day), then I think there are any number of other things which are probably more significant for most people (emotional support networks, regular exercise, mental health practices, regular employment, therapy, etc).

[[me...]]

1) Please explain your alcohol use in both timeline and situation in reference to this statement.

"this might be true in some cases for some people, but it's not a tautology. Alcohol did nothing but exacerbate my more severe symptoms, which is why I've discontinued intake entirely when things have been really bad. "

For most of the length of time that I was on benzos, I consumed 1-2 drinks a day on average. While I was tapering, I continued that. Overall my taper was what I'd describe as "tolerable", with a few episodes lasting from 2-6 weeks where things were much worse: constant sweating, near-complete insomnia, paralyzing fear of day to day activities, obsessive fixation with tinnitus and other physiological issues. During the first few of those periods, in every case I noticed that my anxiety would spike dramatically and predictably within an hour of consuming a single alcoholic beverage. As a result of that observation, I more or less moved into a routine where I completely discontinue alcohol intake any time that I start to see an increase in symptoms. Additionally, at least two such episodes over the past ~3 years were (I believe) directly triggered by the intake of larger amounts of alcohol, and as a result of that, I have a hard and fast limit of how much alcohol I'm willing to consume in any given 24 hour period.

 

 

2) This was actually my point. " There's no such thing as 'objective evaluation'" There should be and can easily be. Once your level of withdrawal is established more targeted help can be had.

Well, I was speaking more from a philosophical point of view. I don't believe in objective reality, period. There are things that can be quantified well enough under controlled circumstances to make repeatable observations about them, but in the case of withdrawal I don't believe it's possible to make a regression from the general case into someone's specific case because of complicating factors arising from genetics, mindstate and environmental factors. Thus, a general rule may well be "more people have an easier time withdrawing from benzos if they abstain from alcohol than don't", but that doesn't mean it's going to hold up in every case. If you dig through the post history here, you'll find a not insignificant number of people who posted after being off of benzos for an extended period (years) that they believe small amounts of alcohol were helpful to them. I do not disbelieve such accounts. Of course, it's not possible to regress from that general theme back down to a specific case, either. Thus, I think knowing yourself and knowing your own reactions should be one's best guide to this process.

 

Without measurements your statement is likely not good advise.

 

As far as I know, Ashton's work still represents the largest and most comprehensive data set we have to work with in this regard, and her conclusion was

Similarly with alcohol: a glass or two of wine is perfectly permissible (and even said by some to be advisable for health). Although it is important not to substitute increasing doses of alcohol for decreasing doses of benzodiazepines, there is no need to deny oneself small pleasures. Moderation is the key: there is no call to be puritanical.

 

If anything, that's a more liberal version of the my own viewpoint. If someone produces a comprehensive longitudinal study that's equally/more comprehensive and comes to a different conclusion, then I'll have to reconsider my view on this. Until that happens, I'm comfortable continuing to say that alcohol is something which overall is better to avoid than indulge in, but not necessarily a huge factor in this process. That is, assuming we are really talking about very moderate consumption (a drink or two at most, and not every day), then I think there are any number of other things which are probably more significant for most people (emotional support networks, regular exercise, mental health practices, regular employment, therapy, etc).

 

1 Interesting. Seems like the one drink alerted your system that the Gaba receptors would be artificially occupied (as when you took benzo) and when they weren't they "scrambled". I can pretty much guarantee that had you had more alcohol you would have had a strong positive reaction and a negative reaction hours later. Alcohol as you know is a paradoxical drug. It is a sedative when taken and several hours later a stimulant.

 

2 "Well, I was speaking more from a philosophical point of view. I don't believe in objective reality, period. "

Now this disappoints me. It would be relatively easy to quantify and qualify the level of withdrawal. Don't be confused by specifics as they can vary, generalities of various withdrawal criteria could easily be scaled. In fact I had done this to some degree do to a discussion on the old Benzo site after a similar conversation.

 

3 Ashton's work is the most widely heralded on the subject but far from complete or infallible. I recall reading several points in her work that was incomplete or poorly extrapolated. Her value is largely in publishing a common sense guide to dose reduction. 

 

4 This is interesting. You wrote, " I think there are any number of other things which are probably more significant for most people (emotional support networks, regular exercise, mental health practices, regular employment, therapy, etc)." When I was in acute withdrawal these things were pointless trivialities with things like exercise and regular employment not optional.

 

Alcohol on the other hand had the ability to impact withdrawal significantly. 

 

So we have come full circle. I agree with the quoted selection but it is not universally correct depending on the severity of the withdrawal.

 

Excellent conversation, thank you.

[[ba...]]

i remember when i used to drink often alcohol would numb me from migraines and other aches i got on my neck that are chronic i dont know how alcoholl can benifit withdrawl pains/?

i used to drink a 12pack of budweiser or busch 2 or 3 times a week for around 3 years 2009-2012

 

[[Bo...]]

bump

[[mo...]]

I know everybody is different but I have had beer just one 24oz while I'm tapering,didn't notice a difference .drinking isn't really fun for me anyway

[[Bo...]]

I've kept an eye on this thread for some time now. Having said that I've felt fully healed for a good while. The other day I was considering drinking with my friends. I figured enough time had passed. Plans fell through and I didn't end up drinking. Boy am I glad I didn't.

 

I had some things go on at work this week that left me a little fearful of losing my job for the fist time in years. Naturally this worked me up for awhile. It didn't throw me back into WD or anything (at this point I don't think stress can), but it really opened my eyes to what Whoopsie warned in her original post. I can only imagine the panic attack I would have had had I of been hungover or sensitive from drinking.

 

Even with as many months under my belt feeling 100% (dare I even say better than 100%) I'm now sure I'm not actually fully healed yet. Under the surface, the right situation can still trigger a nasty wave of panic that mirrors WD symptoms. Just to echo what has been said here many times, even when you feel fully healed it's best to air on the side of caution. It really can take quite awhile to fully heal to the point you can handle putting an alcohol beating on your CNS.

 

At this point I feel I've had as many good months under my belt as I did bad. I think I can safely say that at some point we all will fully heal. I feel in 6 to 8 months I'll be able to tolerate anything life may throw at me. Including a night of power drinking.

[[ma...]]

I've kept an eye on this thread for some time now. Having said that I've felt fully healed for a good while. The other day I was considering drinking with my friends. I figured enough time had passed. Plans fell through and I didn't end up drinking. Boy am I glad I didn't.

 

I had some things go on at work this week that left me a little fearful of losing my job for the fist time in years. Naturally this worked me up for awhile. It didn't throw me back into WD or anything (at this point I don't think stress can), but it really opened my eyes to what Whoopsie warned in her original post. I can only imagine the panic attack I would have had had I of been hungover or sensitive from drinking.

 

Even with as many months under my belt feeling 100% (dare I even say better than 100%) I'm now sure I'm not actually fully healed yet. Under the surface, the right situation can still trigger a nasty wave of panic that mirrors WD symptoms. Just to echo what has been said here many times, even when you feel fully healed it's best to air on the side of caution. It really can take quite awhile to fully heal to the point you can handle putting an alcohol beating on your CNS.

 

At this point I feel I've had as many good months under my belt as I did bad. I think I can safely say that at some point we all will fully heal. I feel in 6 to 8 months I'll be able to tolerate anything life may throw at me. Including a night of power drinking.

 

Thanks for posting this. I agree with you....and I think i'll be able to give drinking a try around that time frame too...hopefully.

[[...]]

Everybody's different. I started having a few drinks here and there the last few months of my taper and never had much in the way of problems with it. I think it's something you just have to try and see. If you have a problem with alcohol, I believe it is better just to avoid it entirely.

[[ba...]]

Hi Barthalomew when you had a drink whats a good way to do it my friend she drinks alot and takes around 4mg of xanax a day she said she takes  xanax a few hours before drinking, drinks for 5-8 hours then after the last drink has another 1mg xanax i think thats like suicidal mixing that much benzos with alcohol like just as bad as mixing a sleeping pill with alcohol to stay asleep forever i take only 0.0625 mg a day do you have a strong urge to take xanax when being drunk? or does the alcohol buzz numb you from that im sure the beer buzz may feel slightly different if you take xanax a few hours before drinking bcuz i took chamomille tea before drinking in the past to settle diahrhea or a upset tummy and the buzz felt slightly different

 

i been sober 26 months sometimes i think the main cause of my bad feeling is from some pernament damage caused from the horrible alcohol withdrawaal i went thru after i quit drinking 26 months ago

[Guest [ba...]]

I'm going to try two beers this evening.  During the past 4-5 weeks, I've tolerated one beer on three occasions without any issue.  Time to kick it up a notch (but just one notch).  Two pints of Stone IPA after work with my buddies.  Man, it's been a long time since I was able to join them at the local pub.

[[ma...]]

I'm going to try two beers this evening.  During the past 4-5 weeks, I've tolerated one beer on three occasions without any issue.  Time to kick it up a notch (but just one notch).  Two pints of Stone IPA after work with my buddies.  Man, it's been a long time since I was able to join them at the local pub.

 

Good luck badsocref!

[[ba...]]

after 50 months of being sober i took only 3 large gulps from a beer yesterday evening , that was so weird it was a light beer and it seemed like i was able to slightly feel those gupls and my head felt more clear the buzzing sound and such in my head was gone

[Guest [ba...]]

117 days after my jump...

 

The two beer experiment was a success although it was delayed two days.  I thoroughly enjoyed two Stone IPAs (alcohol 6.9%).  I wanted to 'appreciate' the full effect, so drank them fairly quickly (it was hot; I was thirsty).  In terms of alcohol, that's equivalent to four ounces of single-malt (three ounces if cask-strength).  I didn't notice any alcohol buzz - I was more carefully monitoring for any revving of symptoms.  I noticed just a little heart pounding, but I had worked hard all day in the yard, so that could have been normal.  If it was benzo-related, it didn't last long.  Slept OK last night (2+ solid weeks of sleep).  Also had coffee + two diet cokes, so neither caffeine nor alcohol appear to be bothering me. 

 

Will likely try three beers sometime in the next three weeks before my bottle of Highland Park and I head off to the Texas Star Party.  I should definitely feel the alcohol from three. 

[[ba...]]

Hi badsocref, that stone IRA seems quite strong! i remember the Budweiser  beer i used to like and drink often was 5% i think a "light" beer has only 3-4% it took alot more of those for me to get a good beer buzz only good thing a light beer was good for was the price $17 for 30 12oz (355ml) cans of keystone light

[[ma...]]

badsocref,

that's great that you've been able to handle having some beer! i'm not sure if I can handle this whole summer staying in while everyone else is out drinking so I might experiment with a little alcohol in the next few weeks. keep us updated on how it goes with you.

[[...]]

after 50 months of being sober i took only 3 large gulps from a beer yesterday evening , that was so weird it was a light beer and it seemed like i was able to slightly feel those gupls and my head felt more clear the buzzing sound and such in my head was gone

 

I don't know. If you had a problem drinking in the past then I wonder if it's a good idea to drink? I don't know if you consider yourself to be an alcoholic or not but if you were 50 months sober that's really good.

[[ba...]]

after 50 months of being sober i took only 3 large gulps from a beer yesterday evening , that was so weird it was a light beer and it seemed like i was able to slightly feel those gupls and my head felt more clear the buzzing sound and such in my head was gone

 

I don't know. If you had a problem drinking in the past then I wonder if it's a good idea to drink? I don't know if you consider yourself to be an alcoholic or not but if you were 50 months sober that's really good.

 

yes it was a very difficult time going thru the alcohol withdrawals after my last drink 3/2012  it lingered for months it was worse for me in the evenings i wouild binge drink a while 12 pack of bud 2-4 times a week so yes i consider myself an alcoholic i couldnt stand to drink just on the weekend i first would drink before i went to work when i worked alone as a bank cleaner or i would drink really late in the wee hours of the morning after work when i started working a 2nd job before the bank

sometimes i just feel like.. "screw it if something bad  happens  " i worry alot what can happen if i try drinking when taking xanax this fear keeps me from drinking and me remembering a friend from high school that died from mixing alcohol with his meds 

[[ba...]]

i must suck really bad at math i meant to put i havnt had a drink in 27 months not  the last time i did was feb 2012

[Guest [ba...]]

I tried drinking two pints of 6.9% IPA last Friday, and had a minor flare-up of my symptoms.  Two pints was enough for me to feel the alcohol a bit.  About 4 hours after enjoying the beer, I had some twitches mostly, and felt a little hyper.  I was able to get to sleep after a bit.  The twitches continued for a couple of days, and I felt just a bit more DR than I had been experiencing.  Symptoms have subsided, and I don't believe I've done myself any long-term harm done. 

 

So I'm OK with 24 oz (1.66 oz ethanol or 4.1 oz of 80 proof single-malt), but 32 oz (2.21 oz ethanol or 5.5 oz of 80 proof single-malt) set me off just a bit.  I'll hold my drinking at the safer level for the time being.  Definitely not worth it for the additional buzz of a third beer.

[[Bo...]]

That's good you're able to handle that. I don't quite trust myself to stop at two tho 

[[ba...]]

hi boognish,  nice name !

 

I remember like if i just drank liquor for the night and not any beer the buzz would feel different to me it was more of a mellow sedated type drunkness beer i was feelin different i felt kinda hyper more talkative outgoin

[[mi...]]

So i had a sip of beer 2 days ago, just a sip, like one gulp. I seem to feel weird the last 2 days...Maybe set back a bit as I was feeling really great?

Could this be all in my head?

It was a very small amount of beer (corona).

 

I am at ~31 months off.

[[Ca...]]

I honestly think at this point it is more psychological, and rightly so. Try not to dwell on it.

 

-CL

[[mi...]]

I honestly think at this point it is more psychological, and rightly so. Try not to dwell on it.

 

-CL

 

I think you are probably right

[Guest [ba...]]

I was on vacation last week, and had one pretty big night of alcohol (for me).  Drank a couple of 7% IPAs and a few shots of single malt.  Definitely felt a good buzz. 

 

I had experimented with alcohol prior to the trip, and had learned that two beers was OK, while three caused me some weird feelings (which I assume to be residual benzo withdrawal symptoms).  I figure that I drank the equivalent of about four 7% IPAs.

 

I guess that I should have known better, but the group was partying, and the buzz felt good.  Before the end of the (long) night, I ended up with heart palps for the first time in a couple of months.  Also felt sort of tight/weird in my head, and my tinnitus flared.  I even had the hint of some shakes, and I slept very poorly.  It's been four days now, and while I'm not suffering, I'm still feeling some of the effects of my one-night binge. 

 

So be careful buddies.