Ashton --> (Micro-) Titration Crossover At 6mg

[[SS...]]

Hi, I'm currently at 6mg valium per day, "dry cutting" using an Ashton Taper, but it's been getting harder (I came "down" from 15mg, cutting 1mg every two weeks; at 5mg the cuts drop to .5mg every two weeks until done), and I'm wondering if it might be easier and possible to switch from Ashton to some kind of titration or micro-titration method.  Can someone help advise me on a good way to proceed from here?  Thanks!

[[mx...]]

Titration works very well and is very easy to do using whole milk. I'm sure if you post a thread for help, someone familiar with your medicine can reply with help.

 

 

Hi, I'm currently at 6mg Valium per day, "dry cutting" using an Ashton Taper, but it's been getting harder (I came "down" from 15mg, cutting 1mg every two weeks; at 5mg the cuts drop to .5mg every two weeks until done), and I'm wondering if it might be easier and possible to switch from Ashton to some kind of titration or micro-titration method.  Can someone help advise me on a good way to proceed from here?  Thanks!

[[SS...]]

Hi, I'm currently at 6mg valium per day, "dry cutting" using an Ashton Taper, and more or less stable with tolerable symptoms, but it's been getting harder since I reached about 8mg (I came "down" originally from 15mg, after crossover from Klonopin, cutting 1mg every two weeks; on my current Ashton Taper when I reach 5mg the cuts drop to .5mg every two weeks until done), and I'm wondering if it might be easier and possible to switch from Ashton to some kind of titration or micro-titration method.  Ashton seems a bit aggressive.  I've got the liquid valium and the syringe and the graduated cylinder, but I'm still kind of confused and don't really have a plan....can someone help advise me on a good way to proceed from here specifically?  Thanks!

[[Pr...]]

Sure,

 

What % rate do you want to taper at (per week / 7 days)

 

What is the concentration of your V liquid? For example - 10mg per 10ml. You should see this information on the front of the bottle.

 

-P-

[[SS...]]

Hi,

 

Well, I've heard that if you do a titration you can actually cut just as fast as with Ashton but with less withdrawal symptoms.  So maybe a "cut rate" similar to the existing Ashton, with hopefully fewer symptoms (mostly anxiety, fear, and depression?  At the existing taper rate, I'll be Benzo Free in March of next year, that wouldn't be a bad landing time/date.

 

I ordered 1 mg/1ml liquid valium, it's on the way, along with the graduated cylinder.  So that's what I'll be using.  

 

Thank you p

 

 

[[...]]

Hi,

 

Well, I've heard that if you do a titration you can actually cut just as fast as with Ashton but with less withdrawal symptoms.  So maybe a "cut rate" similar to the existing Ashton, with hopefully fewer symptoms (mostly anxiety, fear, and depression?  At the existing taper rate, I'll be Benzo Free in March of next year, that wouldn't be a bad landing time/date.

 

I ordered 1 mg/1ml liquid valium, it's on the way, along with the graduated cylinder.  So that's what I'll be using.  

 

Thank you p

 

 

 

Mix 6 ml (6mg's) of Valium (if that is your current daily dose) with liquid (either water or milk, whichever you prefer) with 94 ml of liquid so you start at 6mg's with a total of 100ml of liquid.  I would do it that way and remove whatever percentage you want to for each cut (1ml would equal 1% of your total daily dose) so if you wish to cut 10%, you would remove 10ml.  If you wish to remove 1% of your daily dose, you would remove 1ml.  The amount is up to you.  So is the time frame.  I don't like to put a time frame on tapers cause I believe the our brain and body tells us when and how much to cut once we get the "feel" for it.  Make small cuts for a while and if you do ok, then increase them a bit.  Don't allow anyone to decide a taper amount or rate for you.  That is for you to decide.  You are the only one who knows how bad and what your symptoms are, so let your mind and body tell you so to speak.  You can taper the 6mg's as fast or as slow as you want.  I believe that slow tapers are better because the chance for your need to reinstate is minimized.  Slow wins the race.  The lower you get, the slower you should go IMO. I would split whatever your total daily dose is into 3 or 4 doses for each day, too.  If you use the 100ml method, I prefer dosing like in  my video which you have already seen.  Divide the total daily dose by 3 or 4 depending on how many doses per day, then take that amount with an oral syringe at each dose.

 

You also have the option of just using your liquid valium and using a 1ml syringe so you can just use the liquid V and the syringe which has .1 ml increments on it.  It's all up to you.  Take care...

 

Kian

[[SS...]]

Kian,

 

Thanks so much for your note.  That's very very helpful.  I'm usually not bad at stuff like this but one doesn't exactly get "sharper" when one is in acute benzo withdrawal.  So thank you for your help with this.  The video's great too.  There is a method of micro-titration that has you cut .1mg every single day (normal) or .05mg every day (slow), which gets you a 1mg cut every ten days (normal) or 1mg every 20 days (slow).  The normal rate is even faster than Ashton but supposedly much, much gentler.  I hear what you say about the necessity of deciding one's own taper amount, but do you have any feelings about these DAILY micro-cuts vis a vis cutting, holding, cutting, holding...?

 

Thanks again,

 

Steven

[[Pr...]]

Personally, I found daily cuts to be much gentler. By the end of my taper, I could not cut anymore. Only titrate. Titration tends to help people who have hit a wall, so to speak

[[...]]

Kian,

 

Thanks so much for your note.  That's very very helpful.  I'm usually not bad at stuff like this but one doesn't exactly get "sharper" when one is in acute benzo withdrawal.  So thank you for your help with this.  The video's great too.  There is a method of micro-titration that has you cut .1mg every single day (normal) or .05mg every day (slow), which gets you a 1mg cut every ten days (normal) or 1mg every 20 days (slow).  The normal rate is even faster than Ashton but supposedly much, much gentler.  I hear what you say about the necessity of deciding one's own taper amount, but do you have any feelings about these DAILY micro-cuts vis a vis cutting, holding, cutting, holding...?

 

Thanks again,

 

Steven

Steven,

 

I never crossed over to valium before, so my knowledge is not from experience regarding titrating valium.  I have heard that it is better to cut, hold, cut, hold with SHORT 1/2 life benzos like ativan to prevent from cutting too much at once, but at the same time, I have heard that with a LONG 1/2 life benzo like valium that by the time you "feel" the cut, you may have already cut too much since there is more of a "delayed" withdrawal effect with LONG 1/2 life benzos.  I feel in this case, someone else who has titrated off valium would  be more qualified than I am to give you good advice on this specific issue.

 

Hopefully that is exactly what will happen.  I will put this post in the shout box and see if we can get some sound advice here from someone who has already titrated valium before victoriously.  I'm leaning towards cut hold, cut hold...but only to find out the right amount to cut.  Then, once you find the right amount to cut, just cut that amount, then hold as needed.  More than likely the cuts will be small IMO.  Take care.

 

Kian

[[SS...]]

Thanks Kian Again.  Hope the "shout" gets a valium person.  Surely I'm not the only person who started on an Ashton "dry-cut," found it too brutal, and switched over to (micro-) titration.  Best to you, Steven

[[Pr...]]

You're not. Oleander is another buddie who did that but she's not really on the forums these days. She got off in May and healed very fast. I'll see if I can PM her for you but I do know that she did not hold at all during her titration.

[[SS...]]

Thank you very much, Princezz!

[[mt...]]

Hi Steven

I titrated the entire way off of 15mgs of valium (took 20 months).  No way could I cut and hold.  I tapered at a rate that did not produce symptoms.  I felt fatigue and just kinda funky but NO anxiety or insomnia.  I stepped off pretty well and at 8 months feel totally recovered!

Hope you are well!

Mimi

[[SS...]]

Mimi, thanks for your note! I've been cutting and holding since 15mg (ashton) but it started getting hard at 8mg and now at 6mg I'm in rough shape and "gotta" switch to titration if I don't want to end up in the bughouse. May I ask a few questions about how you went all the way down (bravo!) To Zero?

 

1. Did you do micro-cuts every single day, without ever holding or (heaven forbid) updosing?? I'm told to start with cuts of .5ml per day (that is .05mg valium/day) and then maybe go up to 1ml (.1mg valium) daily if I feel solid, but not more than that (based on a starting solution of 6mg liquid valium (1mg=1ml) dissolved in 54 ml of water) (whew)..

 

2. How did you divide your daily doses? My advisor thinks I can probably get away with just two daily doses, which would be a lot easier for me than three for logistical reasons (I'm still at one single evening dry dose of 6mg since I haven't started titrating).

 

Did I miss anything?

 

Thanks for your help mimi and congratulations again!

 

Steven

[[SS...]]

FOR KIAN:

 

Kian, it may be my foggy brain, but I'm unclear about whether to mix the 6ml of liquid valium with 54ml of water (making 60 ml of solution) or 6ml of liquid valium with 94 ml of water, making 100ml of solution.  I'm not ready to try this, but I sure had better get it clear...!  Could you help with the math here?

 

Thanks!

[[mt...]]

HI Steven

I started out mixing with milk but then moved on to using pills for the main part of my dose and reduced using liquid Valium.  Since Liquid Valium has alcohol as a preservative I was able to dilute with water.  (I diluted it so I could see the cuts better on my syringe.)  I dosed 2-4 times a day.  Usually twice a day but every now and then I would get close to needing to reduce my cut (I knew this was happening as I was feeling my symptoms more) I could spread my dose out to help cover symptoms and be able to push on for a while longer.  Sometimes after holding (I never held longer than 3-4 days) or simply reducing my cut to half (I would simply double the amount of liquid of my base and take the same cut which is equal to cutting your cut rate in half) I could move back up to my previous faster cut rate.  It was like my body just needed a break/rest and then could move forward. 

 

Of course the best practice is to taper at a rate where holding is not required.  The idea is that we only cut our dose at a rate where our receptors can up-regulate to this amount fully.  When we cut at a rate where our receptors can not FULLY up-regulate we are left with receptors not FULLY recovered and we experience symptoms.  I was told to not hold and move back and forth between a lower and faster cut rate as it "confused" the body but in my experience it worked well and I was able to taper with relatively little symptoms.  It was strange but often I would not feel much better when holding but once I would resume tapering I would feel GREAT.  It was like once I was tapering my body wanted the cut but needed a rest at the same time.  So a rest and then resuming would work!?  I think each of us has to experiment a bit and see what works.  FYI I keep a daily log in excel and rated my symptom level each day from 1-10 (10 being the worse) and that way I could make a good assessment-its easy to forget  day to day.

 

I could not tolerate anxiety or insomnia so if I felt even a tiny amount coming on I would hold and slow down.  Often I could go back to my previous cut rate but eventually I would try and go back and get symptoms within 2 days and that would be my signal that I had to reduce cut and go slower.

 

My main rule for tapering was "Never taper through symptoms".  If you become MORE symptomatic you have passed your bodies ability to up-regulate.  You may not be symptom free but find a taper rate where they are OK-manageable and let that be your guide.  If you feel them getting worse hold or slow down and then go back to your previous taper rate and again once tapering if your symptom escalate again with 2-3 days-reduce your taper rate.

 

At your dose I was tapering at .05mg per day and then I went to .025mg, then .020mg, .01mg and the last .50mg I went at a record .005mg.  It took me 3 months to taper my last .50mg but I felt almost completely normal and stepped off in great shape.  I think I tapered slower than anyone!!

 

I met quite a few people along the way that were really struggling and once they began this method they were able to taper successfully.

I am 8 months off and feel great!

You are on the final leg of your benzo journey.  It may take a few weeks to feel confident with the mxing and measuring but soon you will be able to do it all in your sleep!!

 

Have fun!

Mimi 

 

[[...]]

FOR KIAN:

 

Kian, it may be my foggy brain, but I'm unclear about whether to mix the 6ml of liquid valium with 54ml of water (making 60 ml of solution) or 6ml of liquid valium with 94 ml of water, making 100ml of solution.  I'm not ready to try this, but I sure had better get it clear...!  Could you help with the math here?

 

Thanks!

 

If you mix 6ml with 54ml of water, that would mean that 10ml = 1mg.  If you mix 6ml (mg's) with 94 ml then that would mean that 10ml = 10% of 6mg's which is .6mg's.  Either way, you can still control the exact amount or percent that you cut each day/time.  With a 1ml syringe, you have the option of cutting in VERY small increments as mimi has suggested.  Here is an example:

 

6ml with 54 ml of water = 60 ml or 6mg's per 60 ml of water

remove 1ml = .1 mg and .5ml would = .05 mg, remove .4ml = .04mg, remove .3ml = .03 mg, remove .2ml = .02mg, remove .1ml = .01 mg

remove 2ml = .2mg

remove 3ml = .3mg

remove 4ml = .4mg

remove 5ml = .5mg

remove 6ml = .6mg

remove 7ml = .7mg

remove 8ml = .8mg

remove 9ml = .9mg

remove 10ml = 1mg

remove 10 ml = 1mg

 

If you use a total of 100ml, each ml removed would be 1 % of your total daily dose (6mg's).

 

Someone needs to check my math now.  I'm not sure if this is right.  I'm having a rough one today.  VERY HIGH ANXIETY and FEAR.  Get someone else to check this ok?  Take care.

 

Kian

[[Pr...]]

6ml with 54 ml of water = 60 ml or 6mg's per 60 ml of water

remove 1ml = .1 mg and .5ml would = .05 mg, remove .4ml = .04mg, remove .3ml = .03 mg, remove .2ml = .02mg, remove .1ml = .01 mg

remove 2ml = .2mg

remove 3ml = .3mg

remove 4ml = .4mg

remove 5ml = .5mg

remove 6ml = .6mg

remove 7ml = .7mg

remove 8ml = .8mg

remove 9ml = .9mg

remove 10ml = 1mg

remove 10 ml = 1mg

 

If you use a total of 100ml, each ml removed would be 1 % of your total daily dose (6mg's).

 

Someone needs to check my math now.  I'm not sure if this is right.  I'm having a rough one today.  VERY HIGH ANXIETY and FEAR.  Get someone else to check this ok?  Take care.

 

It looks reasonable to me, Kian. Steven, I would probably just add 100ml to the 6ml and remove 1ml at a time. The difference between adding 94ml and adding 100ml is negligible. Adding 54 to get 60 seems a little fast to me. It's totally up to you. You can start slow and readjust later.

 

Feel better soon, Kian.

[[SS...]]

Thank you MtMimi, Kian, and Princezz for your help on this titration method.  Trying anything new is daunting but in this case I believe absolutely necessary.  Relief, even in small potions, would be so welcome at this point.  I'm so fragile.  I'm still waiting for that liquid valium to arrive (countless crazy delays; ordered it online with a doctor's prescription) and so meantime I'm white-knuckling it with a single daily 6mg dry dose per evening.  I recently cut from 7mg to 6mg in two weeks per Ashton, and my body and mind are still teetering on the edge with fear and anxiety. 

 

Any suggestions to tide me over with the dry pills until the liquid arrives?  I know I could try and do the milk thing but if I can hold out another day or two, perhaps with some improvement to what I'm doing now, I won't have to "get milk."

 

Thank you all again so much

[[mt...]]

Hi Steven,

Wow 1 whole mg no wonder you feel shaky!  Its hard to mix and measure when you feel ill.  How long ago did you cut?  Have you been able to stabilize after cutting previously?  Did you order the Roche brand of Liquid v in the 5mg:5ml strength?  Make sure it is in the strength as they have another stronger solution....I think if is 5mg:1ml.  Makes the math more complicated.  I had to order mine as well and they kept trying to give me the stronger one.

 

I just posted  an example of how I dosed using Liquid V for Wise woman on my Success Thread.  I wil paste it here and you can also look through my Blog-jump over all the drama and take a look for posts on my taper methods.

 

Post

For example if you are at 14mgs and want to cut .05mg (that's the rate I used at 14mgs) it would go like this

 

DAY 1

AM dose

5mg pill

1/2 of a 2mg pills  =1mg

1mg liquid V

Total AM dose  7mg

 

 

PM dose

5mg pill

1/2 of a 2mg pill= 1mg

.95mg Liquid V

 

Total PM dose =6.95mg

 

Total dose for day 13.95mg

 

 

Day 2

AM dose

5mg pill

1/2 of a 2mg pills  =1mg

.95 mg liquid V

Total AM dose  6.95mg

 

 

PM dose

5mg pill

1/2 of a 2mg pill= 1mg

.95mg Liquid V

 

Total PM dose =6.95mg

 

Total dose for day 13.90mg

 

I never used % for determining my taper.  I determined my taper rate based on symptoms.  If I became symptomatic I would slow down and adjust taper rate. 

 

Blog

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=17837.0

 

 

Happy Monday!

 

[[SS...]]

Mimi,

 

I cut from 7mg to 6mg on Monday the 24th, even though I wasn't feeling that terrific at 7, and now I feel like I'm right at the edge.  I can hardly think straight and have been sleeping poorly, my head clouded and totally fearful. Ordering the liquid valium has been a big hassle so I'm still on the dry pills, 'though I daren't budge from this very rocky 6mg level until I feel a tiny bit better. Updosing is tempting but also frightening, so I won't do it.

 

The liquid valium I ordered is 1mg/ml so I'll have to deal with that.

 

One question I have is probably very, very, very basic, but I'm so fried that I can't get my poor brain around it.  Let me see if I can try and make this make sense (at the best of times I wasn't terrific at math, now I'm barely functional in this respect):

 

I can see "removing .5ml" of liquid valium solution from, say, a 60ml solution comprised of 6ml liquid valium (1mg/ml) and 54ml of water, and taking that remaining solution (54.95ml) in two or three daily doses.  That's fine and makes sense (thanks everyone for doing the math for me when I can't do it myself).

 

What I don't understand is what you do as you proceed with the taper and you must begin removing significant amounts of solution.  Won't you then be throwing away relatively large amounts of valium everytime your remove the necessary amount?  As you get lower and lower, does it still make sense to remove, say, the lion's share of the solution, toss it, and take the small remainder?  In other words, do you mix up a new batch of 60ml (in the above scenario) liquid valium solution every single morning, during the ebntire taper, only to toss out most of it for the purposes of accurate measurement?  Or do you, at some point, recalculate, using different amounts or something, which might be easy for a normally functioning person to envision in the best of times, but which I simply can not fathom right now, as simple as it should be.

 

Does this make ANY sense at all?

 

I have got my cup of herbal tea, mtmimi, and I'm going to read your whole thread and blog thing now.  Hope it sheds some light.  Thanks again for your help!

[[mt...]]

Hi Steven

Using liquid V I did not have to dilute.  I took it straight out of the bottle.  I did dilute it once I got low in dose and had to dilute as I just could not see it accurately on the syringe.  You need a syringe that has 10 large lines (each equals .10mg for a total of 10 =1mg) and in between each of these larger lines there should be smaller lines (each equals .01mg for a total of 100=1mg.)  This way you can reduce your cut to .01mg each day without diluting...does that make sense?

 

I used BD brand Luer LOK.  You can order off the internet.  I liked these as they have a larger outer barrel to make seeing the lines easier.  FYI put tape over the lines as they will rub off over time.

 

Let me know if you don't understand...I used to cry at the beginning when I was trying to figure it all out.  I was so out of it and  scared!!

 

http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac288/mtmimi/BND309628.jpg

 

 

[[SS...]]

Mtmi,

 

I am out of it and I am very scared.  So not diluting means...I don't have to mix the liquid valium with water at all? 

 

So what do I do with the liquid valium that I measure out in the syringe?  Just put it in a random amount of water, shake it, and drink that?  Or drink it straight?  Or...!!!!!!

 

I'm so confused.

 

I just can't get my mind around this. 

 

 

 

[[mt...]]

One more thing Steven

If you want to dilute I just doubled up the liquid volume... I would make a batch and pull from it for 2 days.  I did not keep anything diluted for any longer than 2 days as I as afraid it might not keep.  Find the tiniest bottle you can find add 2 ml liquid V and 2 ml water.  Now you have a solution that equals .50mg in each 1ml syringe. Think about it each full syringe -NOW has only a half mg of valium in it.  SO look at the 10 big lines NOW each LARGE line has only .05mg of valium (instead of .1mg).  So if you are cutting at .05mg a day then you want to remove one large line a day.  Each dose AM and PM would be .95ml on each syringe.   

 

Day 1

AM dose

2.50mg Pill

Pull into syringe .95ml this now equals .475mg of V

Total AM dose -2.975

PM dose

2.50mg Pill

Pull into syringe .95ml this now equals .475mg of V

Total PM dose -2.975

 

Total for day =5.95mg

 

Day 2

AM dose

2.50mg Pill

Pull into syringe .90ml this now equals .425mg of V

Total AM dose -2.475

PM dose

2.50mg Pill

Pull into syringe .90ml this now equals .425mg of V

Total PM dose -2.475

 

Total for day =5.90mg

 

Stare at this for awhile and see if you can wrap your brain around it.  Its hard in the beginning but good to push your brain and in time you will do this in your sleep.  Ask someone to go over with you if you can't get it... Don't worry it will come to you!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[[SS...]]

Thank you Mtmi, it's getting a LITTLE clearer.

 

Is the PM dose at bedtime?

 

Is the PM dose a single dose that is a combination of a pill (half a 5mg) and the little bit of liquid v?

 

So that's two doses during the day, one AM and one PM?

 

THANK YOU