Liquid Valium daily Titration?

[[Wi...]]

I know this isn't a new question, but am posing it nonetheless.  I c/o from 4 mg Ativan to 40 mg V.  Dropped to 25 mg and was tapering 1 mg every two weeks and then switched to .5 mg a week.  Now I'm at 14 mg and am finding that although .5 mg is around 7% cut every two weeks, it is getting harder than when I was higher dose.  I know it makes sense that that would happen and I also know I'm tapering slower than most.  But I work and it's the only way I can keep working.

 

So I am actually writing because I am thinking it might be easier if I could liquid taper daily, keeping it around 5-6 percent cuts (staying under 7% every two weeks) and i need help with a schedule to do this.  I have figured it out by the week, but am not sure how to do it daily.

 

I know that cutting more frequently seems to be smoother for me after having gone from 1 mg every two weeks to .5 every week and am hoping it will go even smoother daily.  So any help, suggestions, proposed schedules would be greatly appreciated.  Thank you!!

 

Last night I cut from 14 to 13.65 mg so that's where things stand today...

[[Pr...]]

Hi WiseWoman,

 

I am one of the people who found it easier to get off by titrating. I created a really simple Excel spreadsheet that I used for my own taper, and I've shared it with a couple of other buddies as well. Would you like me to customize it for you?

 

-P-

[[Pr...]]

Actually I just realized the copying and pasting from Excel works well. So I can paste your suggested schedule here. Just tell me what day you want to start and what kind of V tablets you have - 2mg, 5mg, etc.

[[Wi...]]

Princezz,

 

Thank you for your offer and I'd be really grateful if you would post a schedule example.  I have 10 mg, 5 mg, 2 mg and .25 mg perday liquid lol.  So I am stocked up.  I'm not sure the date simply because I begin a new job next Monday and am holding for a week or so to see what it's going to require.  But I can always modify the dates, so just assume I'm starting Monday, October 24.  I really appreciate this. 

 

Thank you!!

 

WWWI

[[Pr...]]

Wow, you're definitely not hurting for pills. LOL.

 

Here goes - suggested instructions.

 

Every day, you would dissolve 14mg Librium in 240ml of water or milk. Milk makes for a slightly better suspension because of its high fat content. 14mg will consist of a 10mg tablet and two 2mg tablets.

 

To go at a rate of 6% every two weeks, you're looking at a 240 day titration. Actually 234 since you've already gotten down to 13.65 from 14mg. The days you've already covered, I left marked as day 0. Day 1 is the point you're at now.

 

On that first day, it says that you take 233ml of benzo liquid. That means that after you've dissolved the 14mg in the 240ml, you draw out 7ml of the liquid with your syringe and toss it down the sink. You'll be left with 233ml, which you will drink.

 

On day two, mix up 240ml and toss 8ml; drink 232ml.

 

Day three, mix up 240ml, toss 9ml, drink 231ml.

 

And so on.....

 

Day Librium (mg) Lib. Liquid (ml) Percentage

0 14.0000 240 100.00

0 13.9415 239 99.58

0 13.8830 238 99.16

0 13.8245 237 98.75

0 13.7660 236 98.33

0 13.7075 235 97.91

0 13.6490 234 97.49

 

Sidenote: some people like to hold for a couple of days at this point to let their body get used to the liquid without going down in dose. I did that but found I had no problems tolerating the liquid so I was good to go. You are a cautious taperer so thought I'd throw it out there as an option.

 

So to hold here without decreasing, you would mix 14mg Librium into 240ml of water and toss 6ml to drink 234ml - that's 13.65mg of Librium you would be getting. Do that for 2-3 days, as or long as you feel you need to.

 

1 13.5905 233 97.08

2 13.5320 232 96.66

3 13.4735 231 96.24

4 13.4150 230 95.82

5 13.3565 229 95.40

6 13.2980 228 94.99

7 13.2395 227 94.57

8 13.1810 226 94.15

9 13.1225 225 93.73

10 13.0640 224 93.31

11 13.0055 223 92.90

12 12.9470 222 92.48

13 12.8885 221 92.06

14 12.8300 220 91.64

 

Notice here on day 14, you've reduced to 12.83mg Librium from 13.65mg. You are now at (12.83 / 13.65) = 0.9399 = 94% of your starting dosage, which is a 6% decrease.

 

15 12.7715 219 91.22

16 12.7130 218 90.81

17 12.6545 217 90.39

18 12.5960 216 89.97

19 12.5375 215 89.55

20 12.4790 214 89.14

21 12.4205 213 88.72

22 12.3620 212 88.30

23 12.3035 211 87.88

24 12.2450 210 87.46

25 12.1865 209 87.05

26 12.1280 208 86.63

27 12.0695 207 86.21

28 12.0110 206 85.79

 

After this point, you've reached 12mg Librium. Since you have 2mg tablets, there is no need to waste them by mixing 14mg anymore. You can simply at this point put 12mg Librium (one 10mg tablet and one 2mg tablet) into 205ml of water. So instead of making 240ml of benzo liquid, from now on you'll just be making 205ml.

 

On day 30, you make 205ml of liquid, toss ONE ml, so that you drink 204.

 

Day 31, toss 2ml so you drink 203.

 

29 11.9525 205 85.37

30 11.8940 204 84.96

31 11.8355 203 84.54

32 11.7770 202 84.12

33 11.7185 201 83.70

34 11.6600 200 83.29

35 11.6015 199 82.87

36 11.5430 198 82.45

37 11.4845 197 82.03

38 11.4260 196 81.61

39 11.3675 195 81.20

40 11.3090 194 80.78

41 11.2505 193 80.36

42 11.1920 192 79.94

43 11.1335 191 79.52

44 11.0750 190 79.11

45 11.0165 189 78.69

46 10.9580 188 78.27

47 10.8995 187 77.85

48 10.8410 186 77.44

49 10.7825 185 77.02

50 10.7240 184 76.60

51 10.6655 183 76.18

52 10.6070 182 75.76

53 10.5485 181 75.35

54 10.4900 180 74.93

55 10.4315 179 74.51

56 10.3730 178 74.09

57 10.3145 177 73.67

58 10.2560 176 73.26

59 10.1975 175 72.84

60 10.1390 174 72.42

61 10.0805 173 72.00

62 10.0220 172 71.59

 

Now you're down to 10mg of Librium. So dissolve a 10mg tablet in 171 ml of water. Your whole benzo solution from now on will be 171ml.

 

On day 64, make 171ml of liquid and toss ONE ml so you drink 170.

On day 65, make 171ml of liquid and toss 2ml so you drink 169. Etc.

 

63 9.9635 171 71.17

64 9.9050 170 70.75

65 9.8465 169 70.33

66 9.7880 168 69.91

67 9.7295 167 69.50

68 9.6710 166 69.08

69 9.6125 165 68.66

70 9.5540 164 68.24

71 9.4955 163 67.82

72 9.4370 162 67.41

73 9.3785 161 66.99

74 9.3200 160 66.57

75 9.2615 159 66.15

76 9.2030 158 65.74

77 9.1445 157 65.32

78 9.0860 156 64.90

79 9.0275 155 64.48

80 8.9690 154 64.06

81 8.9105 153 63.65

82 8.8520 152 63.23

83 8.7935 151 62.81

84 8.7350 150 62.39

85 8.6765 149 61.97

86 8.6180 148 61.56

87 8.5595 147 61.14

88 8.5010 146 60.72

89 8.4425 145 60.30

90 8.3840 144 59.89

91 8.3255 143 59.47

92 8.2670 142 59.05

93 8.2085 141 58.63

94 8.1500 140 58.21

95 8.0915 139 57.80

96 8.0330 138 57.38

97 7.9745 137 56.96

98 7.9160 136 56.54

99 7.8575 135 56.12

100 7.7990 134 55.71

101 7.7405 133 55.29

102 7.6820 132 54.87

103 7.6235 131 54.45

104 7.5650 130 54.04

105 7.5065 129 53.62

106 7.4480 128 53.20

107 7.3895 127 52.78

108 7.3310 126 52.36

109 7.2725 125 51.95

110 7.2140 124 51.53

111 7.1555 123 51.11

112 7.0970 122 50.69

113 7.0385 121 50.27

 

Congrats! You've reached 7mg of Librium. Half-way point for you. Continue from here by dissolving 7mg (one 5mg tablet and one 2mg tablet) in 120 ml water.

 

Day 115 - remove ONE ml to drink 119. Etc.

 

114 6.9800 120 49.86

115 6.9215 119 49.44

116 6.8630 118 49.02

117 6.8045 117 48.60

118 6.7460 116 48.19

119 6.6875 115 47.77

120 6.6290 114 47.35

121 6.5705 113 46.93

122 6.5120 112 46.51

123 6.4535 111 46.10

124 6.3950 110 45.68

125 6.3365 109 45.26

126 6.2780 108 44.84

127 6.2195 107 44.42

128 6.1610 106 44.01

129 6.1025 105 43.59

130 6.0440 104 43.17

131 5.9855 103 42.75

132 5.9270 102 42.34

133 5.8685 101 41.92

134 5.8100 100 41.50

135 5.7515 99 41.08

136 5.6930 98 40.66

137 5.6345 97 40.25

138 5.5760 96 39.83

139 5.5175 95 39.41

140 5.4590 94 38.99

141 5.4005 93 38.57

142 5.3420 92 38.16

143 5.2835 91 37.74

144 5.2250 90 37.32

145 5.1665 89 36.90

146 5.1080 88 36.49

147 5.0495 87 36.07

 

Dissolve one 5mg tablet in 86ml water from here. Day 149 - toss one ml to drink 85ml.

 

148 4.9910 86 35.65

149 4.9325 85 35.23

150 4.8740 84 34.81

151 4.8155 83 34.40

152 4.7570 82 33.98

153 4.6985 81 33.56

154 4.6400 80 33.14

155 4.5815 79 32.72

156 4.5230 78 32.31

157 4.4645 77 31.89

158 4.4060 76 31.47

159 4.3475 75 31.05

160 4.2890 74 30.64

161 4.2305 73 30.22

162 4.1720 72 29.80

163 4.1135 71 29.38

164 4.0550 70 28.96

165 3.9965 69 28.55

166 3.9380 68 28.13

167 3.8795 67 27.71

168 3.8210 66 27.29

169 3.7625 65 26.87

170 3.7040 64 26.46

171 3.6455 63 26.04

172 3.5870 62 25.62

173 3.5285 61 25.20

174 3.4700 60 24.79

175 3.4115 59 24.37

176 3.3530 58 23.95

177 3.2945 57 23.53

178 3.2360 56 23.11

179 3.1775 55 22.70

180 3.1190 54 22.28

181 3.0605 53 21.86

182 3.0020 52 21.44

183 2.9435 51 21.02

184 2.8850 50 20.61

185 2.8265 49 20.19

186 2.7680 48 19.77

187 2.7095 47 19.35

188 2.6510 46 18.94

189 2.5925 45 18.52

190 2.5340 44 18.10

191 2.4755 43 17.68

192 2.4170 42 17.26

193 2.3585 41 16.85

194 2.3000 40 16.43

195 2.2415 39 16.01

196 2.1830 38 15.59

197 2.1245 37 15.17

198 2.0660 36 14.76

199 2.0075 35 14.34

 

Dissolve a 2mg tablet in 34ml of water from here. Day 201, toss 1ml to drink 33ml. Etc.

 

200 1.9490 34 13.92

201 1.8905 33 13.50

202 1.8320 32 13.09

203 1.7735 31 12.67

204 1.7150 30 12.25

205 1.6565 29 11.83

206 1.5980 28 11.41

207 1.5395 27 11.00

208 1.4810 26 10.58

209 1.4225 25 10.16

210 1.3640 24 9.74

211 1.3055 23 9.32

212 1.2470 22 8.91

213 1.1885 21 8.49

214 1.1300 20 8.07

215 1.0715 19 7.65

216 1.0130 18 7.24

217 0.9545 17 6.82

218 0.8960 16 6.40

219 0.8375 15 5.98

220 0.7790 14 5.56

221 0.7205 13 5.15

222 0.6620 12 4.73

223 0.6035 11 4.31

224 0.5450 10 3.89

 

At this point, you can start using your liquid. Make sure you check the expiration on it bc my K liquid from the compounding pharmacy was only good for one month. It might not be worth it to switch up your routine here because it's really only another 9 days til you finish.

 

225 0.4865 9 3.47

226 0.4280 8 3.06

227 0.3695 7 2.64

228 0.3110 6 2.22

229 0.2525 5 1.80

230 0.1940 4 1.39

231 0.1355 3 0.97

232 0.0770 2 0.55

233 0.0185 1 0.13

234 0.0000 0 0.00

 

[[Pr...]]

All that said, I figure at some point this schedule will need to be redone. Titration is so gentle that you'll likely be able to tolerate a faster taper than 6% every 2 weeks. I'm almost certain that you'll want to speed up. We'll leave that decision for later though.

[[Pr...]]

P.S. You are HILARIOUS 

 

"Stopped Depakote and p-doc, both toxic"

[[Wi...]]

Princezz,

 

I can't believe how detailed and thorough that was and how much time that must have taken you.  I am very very grateful.  Thank you!!

 

I would like to believe it's possible to taper faster than the 6% and as I mentioned have found it smoother to taper less amounts more frequently (weekly) and hope if I can implement your schedule successfully, it will take less time to complete this taper.  Alternatively, even if it takes this amount of time, using your schedule, gives me the hope that for the duration of the taper, it will be the least painful of this entire process to date.

 

One question...you said milk is preferable to water but water will suffice.  I'm lactose intolerant and meant to ask you about that originally.  Can I truly be successful titrating using water? And although the schedule mentions Libruim, I'm on Valium and am hoping the same rules and schedule apply.  Please let me know otherwise.

 

Again, thank you so very much for giving me your time and wisdom.

 

WWWI

[[Pr...]]

OOOPPPSSSSSS I just did another schedule for Librium and I had it on the brain. Lololol!

 

Yes, it's the exact same thing, just replace the world Valium with Librium. Lolol. Even the pill amounts are the same bc Valium also comes in 10mg, 5 and 2mg tabs.

 

The milk thing - I used soy milk myself Almond is fine, rice is fine. The more fat in the milk the better though. If you choose to use water, plenty of people have successfully gone that route as well.

 

You'll feel a little funny titrating at first, but you'll get the hang of it. I got off K using titration, then waited 10 months and I started titrating my anti-depressant this month and I felt funny doing it at first. Even tho I'd done it before. But it's all gravy now. You will get into a nice routine.

[[Co...]]

I tried that too but got so sick of carrying the jars around with me, so I'm back to dry cutting and suffering. I will say titrating is the best way to go, in my opinion. Good luck

[[Wi...]]

Princezz,

 

I may have mentioned I've put my taper on hold for a few weeks to get acclimated to a new job.  So I've got your schedule and getting the supplies to begin the process to be successful (they had a sale on Hemp milk here lol and I can keep it in my cupboard until I open it, so it's perfect, thank you for suggesting that as an option!!).  I started the job officially today and am going to give it a week, possibly two before I begin the titration.  I just wanted to thank you SO much for putting in so much thought and time to helping me do this.

 

I don't want you to put in the effort of creating a whole new set of numbers, and this might not be an easy answer, but if, as you suggested, I find that because I'm titrating, I can handle more than 6 percent, how do I apply your formula to 6.5 or even 7%.  If that requires more than a little thought, I will use my brain power to figure it out, but if it's fairly straight forward I would really appreciate your input.

 

Again, thank you SO much for all of your help.

[[Pr...]]

I didn't create the numbers by hand, but using Excel. So it's just a matter of swapping out a parameter or two.

[[mx...]]

Princezz is the Queen of compassion!  

[[Pr...]]

It's not me, it's this environment. BB brings out the best in me

[[ko...]]

It's not me, it's this environment. BB brings out the best in me

 

*like*

 

[[mx...]]

It is you......

 

 

 

It's not me, it's this environment. BB brings out the best in me

[[Pl...]]

Good luck on your new job! You are going to be awesome!

 

[[pr...]]

Congratulations on the new job!

 

WW, the only thing I would like to add to the excellent advice you've already gotten is, Valium does have a long lag time, so with the daily titration, it's very easy to get ahead of yourself. 

 

That is, it's easy to find that you have cut too much and you are developing excessive withdrawal symptoms due to cuts you may have made a couple of weeks earlier.  And by that time even holding or reinstating slightly doesn't really help because of the lag time. 

 

The long-lasting metabolites are going to continue to drop even while you hold or increase the dose.

 

So be careful with that.  I'd recommend periodically just holding for a week or two.  I always recommend intermittent holds in daily-type tapers to make sure that your brain's remodeling process is keeping up with the taper anyway, but with Valium this is even more crucial, to make sure that you haven't cut so much that the long-term metabolites are going to be dropping too fast.

 

Really, for this reason, I generally recommend with Valium the more typical pattern of cuts followed by holds.  This "lag" effect is actually the reason that Ashton recommends Valium as the best benzo to taper off of, because it's a more gentle dropping effect.  But I'd like to hear how this daily titration works for you.

[[Wi...]]

Good luck on your new job! You are going to be awesome!

   

 

Hey Woman!! Ty xxoo

[[Wi...]]

Congratulations on the new job!

 

WW, the only thing I would like to add to the excellent advice you've already gotten is, Valium does have a long lag time, so with the daily titration, it's very easy to get ahead of yourself. 

 

That is, it's easy to find that you have cut too much and you are developing excessive withdrawal symptoms due to cuts you may have made a couple of weeks earlier.  And by that time even holding or reinstating slightly doesn't really help because of the lag time. 

 

The long-lasting metabolites are going to continue to drop even while you hold or increase the dose.

 

So be careful with that.  I'd recommend periodically just holding for a week or two.  I always recommend intermittent holds in daily-type tapers to make sure that your brain's remodeling process is keeping up with the taper anyway, but with Valium this is even more crucial, to make sure that you haven't cut so much that the long-term metabolites are going to be dropping too fast.

 

Really, for this reason, I generally recommend with Valium the more typical pattern of cuts followed by holds.  This "lag" effect is actually the reason that Ashton recommends Valium as the best benzo to taper off of, because it's a more gentle dropping effect.  But I'd like to hear how this daily titration works for you.

 

I really appreciate this feedback. I'm hopeful that this might be a method by which I can continue at a reasonable pace, but am hesitant about change, since, like everyone else here, surprises as a result of change aren't frequently good surprises.  I will certainly keep your suggestions in mind and really appreciate the additional information.  I had been moving consistently successfully, albeit slowly, lowering the dosage.  But when I hit 14 mg, which also intersected with a significant life change, the normal weekly .5 mg became too much.  I had hoped to get lower before that happened but if wishes were horses and all that...

 

So again, my hope is that by titrating daily and keeping in mind the holds you are suggesting, I'm hoping to be able to tolerate the cuts.  The only thing I can take from my own personal experience is that when I went from cutting 1 mg every two weeks to .5 every week, the ride was clearly smoother. 

 

When I first began this process a year ago this month it was out of necessity.  The interdose w/d from Ativan finally and ultimately incapacitated me.  Now a year later, I've transitioned and acclimated to Valium and have cut a significant percentage.  Now that I'm @ 14 mg, I still most definitely want off, however having held for almost 2 weeks after my last cut and for the first time experienced some semblence of stability since many years, I'm faced with the knowledge that I could stay on this dosage and function vs progressing to get off the drug (which is ultimately what I really want) but in doing so having to endure the impending effects of lowering the dosage.  Bottom line is I am no longer motivated by desperation, but desire.  And the idea of intentionally putting myself back into the w/d process, to be absolutely candid, I'm not finding a welcome idea.  So again, going back to titration, my hope, wish, would be that's it's almost unnoticable (yeah sure).  If I haven't mentioned this recently, let me emphatically re-state I absolutey hate, abhor, detest this drug.  Truth is the idea of again beginning the w/d process again is really pissing me off.

 

That said, I doubt I can express my gratitude sufficiently at the support I have received here.  Thank you to you all.

[[Pr...]]

WWWI,

 

Look through the buddie blogs for Oleander. She dropped her last 3mg of V using titration. It was really smooth for her and luckily she healed up within 3-4 months after getting off. She doesn't post much anymore, but you can see what her ride was like at the end

 

-P-

[[Wi...]]

WWWI,

 

Look through the buddie blogs for Oleander. She dropped her last 3mg of V using titration. It was really smooth for her and luckily she healed up within 3-4 months after getting off. She doesn't post much anymore, but you can see what her ride was like at the end

 

-P-

 

You are a doll!  Thank you.