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Restarting Taper after long hold


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[ro...]

I started my Taper in 2012. I was on 30 mg of diazepam. I managed to do a slow taper and got down to 15 mg in 2013

My symptoms were so severe. I had to stop. I was symptom-free until the first few weeks of May 2024. I then had severe burning symptoms in my mouth and eyes, 

I am guessing I went into tolerance withdrawal. I don't know what to do now. How can I start a taper when I have bad symptoms? I always thought it is best to start a taper when you are symptom-free. 

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[je...]

It does sound like you are in tolerance withdrawal unfortunately. 
 

7 hours ago, [[r...] said:

How can I start a taper when I have bad symptoms? I always thought it is best to start a taper when you are symptom-free. 

No, that’s not how tapering works. We taper from a place of functionality and stability not symptom free. Some people here are not functional, they taper even though they’re not able to fully function. It differs for each person depending on their situation and why they need to taper.

I’m sorry to hear you’re experiencing these symptoms. I can understand it must be distressing. :hug:

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[ro...]

I was curious if I could updose where the symptoms go away. Then when I am stable I could taper again

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[je...]
37 minutes ago, [[r...] said:

I was curious if I could updose where the symptoms go away. Then when I am stable I could taper again

That is ultimately your decision but in my opinion it defeats the purpose and there’s no guarantee that when you start tapering down from that higher dose, you won’t experience the same symptoms.

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[ro...]

I was thinking if I were to become stable I would microdose rather than make the cuts I had been doing when I was on 30 mg of diazepam. Maybe by cutting by a microdose I could taper easier. I had support from a doctor when I started my taper from 30 mg. He sent me valium from a compounding pharmacy. The diazepam was in a solution of almond oil. I had an oral syringe and I could make really small accurate cuts without having symptoms. Unfortunately this Doctor died and I was left alone

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[Cr...]
Posted (edited)

You went through a lot to get down to 15mgs. And then you held that dose for many years, relatively stable, until tolerance withdrawal hit.

If you updose now, you may get some short-term relief but before long tolerance withdrawal will rear its ugly head again and you will then be in a worse position than you are now (same symptoms you currently have, but now you are on a higher dose and have longer to go to get off).

Rob, the only way out of the tolerance/updose/tolerance/updose cycle is to taper off the medication. You can't updose forever, so it is best not to take that path.

Your journey from 30 to 15 was rough and you did it in a years time. Perhaps this time you may want to taper a bit slower. Who knows, you may be one of the lucky ones that gets more relief as you get closer to coming off. Sometimes that happens when our body turns against a med we have been on for so long.

 

Edited by [Cr...]
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[ro...]

Crono, It is hard to even think of tapering right now. I am feeling so miserable. I understand what you are saying. You are right. I will just keep feeling worse as I taper. My first taper I started in a good place and I had support of a doctor and a compounding pharmacy. I attribute this to me being able to taper down from 30 to 15. Now I have no support and I just can't comprehend how I can do this.

So I have been reading on the forum about a supplement called agmatine sulfate. A BB member said he took this and he was able to feel 90% normal but it lasted only for 6 weeks he said. So I am hoping I could use this or another supplement so I don't feel so awful. Probably wouldn't hurt. It may or may not work for me. But at least I could try. Another thing is if the supplement does just work temporarily, then I would go back to the gym and walk on the treadmill. Sometimes I wonder if I went into tolerance withdrawal because I stopped the exercise.

Please excuse my incoherent writing and grammar I am in a severe mental fog and it is hard to focus

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[Ca...]

I don't think she said you will feel worse as you taper. But, Chrono, please correct me if I am reading your message incorrectly, but seems you were saying that if he updosed now he might be in worse tolerance withdrawal.

It's interesting that you attribute your sucess of the first taper to the liquid taper. I am considering switching to a liquid taper.

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[or...]

Hi Rob,  I agree after reading your post, as well as replies above, that a slower taper, like mine at 3%, would be better for you than updosing/re-instating.  This is just based on what I've read from others that have gone before me.  I understand your sxs are bad, but one thing I recall when I was asking similar questions here on BB, that someone said "I don't want you to have to purchase the same property twice".  Somehow that got through to my benzo-brain and going backwards just wasn't an option.

There's quite a few folks I've heard from that did think starting over would be better, but I've read how it didn't work for them.  I was put on my original dose before I got to BB, doctor recommended it.  I had a pretty bad event where my whole body went numb on left side.  I actually lean towards that being a non-permanent sxs and not one, single test showed any perm. damage when I look back on that time.

Now I've learned a micro-taper is absolutely the answer for me as I am doing very well, so far so good, and a year into my taper, and halfway down, oregonlady :hug:PS bottom line here is you have to study on all you can and then make your own decision.  Only you can decide.  I'm 71 and most would think I want to hurry up the process, but by doing that, I would have no quality of life, already "been hurried up" and I'm not going back ;)

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[or...]
Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, [[r...] said:

Crono, It is hard to even think of tapering right now. I am feeling so miserable. I understand what you are saying. You are right. I will just keep feeling worse as I taper. My first taper I started in a good place and I had support of a doctor and a compounding pharmacy. I attribute this to me being able to taper down from 30 to 15. Now I have no support and I just can't comprehend how I can do this.

So I have been reading on the forum about a supplement called agmatine sulfate. A BB member said he took this and he was able to feel 90% normal but it lasted only for 6 weeks he said. So I am hoping I could use this or another supplement so I don't feel so awful. Probably wouldn't hurt. It may or may not work for me. But at least I could try. Another thing is if the supplement does just work temporarily, then I would go back to the gym and walk on the treadmill. Sometimes I wonder if I went into tolerance withdrawal because I stopped the exercise.

Please excuse my incoherent writing and grammar I am in a severe mental fog and it is hard to focus

I don't believe you will feel worse if you taper micro-size tapers Rob, we can teach you how to do that if you want to try.  I think your body is trying to heal, that's what I've heard from others about my own wd sxs.  It's your body detoxifying is one way of understanding.  The benzo has stopped working for me and that's called Tolerance wd.  So I finally found BB.  I had joined many years before but evidently wasn't ready to be rid of the poison I'd taken for 35 years.

This is all just my opinion, and personal experience.  I really believe the "ticket" is to go slow.  Recommended is 5-10 percent but I went even lower, held that new dose, then tapered another 3%.  If you haven't tried tapering micro-tapers, I cannot recommend it more. You could even go down to just 2%/1%, but I suggest you think it over and decide to do it, or just keep holding which sounds pretty much like you've tried that which hasn't worked, oregonlady :hug:

PS don't fall for any man-made miracle supplements.  I don't know anyone who can tell you for sure that some man-made miracle drug, procedure, or supplement worked for them long-term.  Like someone told me yesterday, taking something to fix wd sxs is always a trade-off.  You most likely are adding something into your body you will eventually have to taper off of as well.  Again it's all up to you. 

All that said, I think to keep your body moving, and good nutrition, can only help, and healthy distractions. Focus on the solution, not the problem.

Edited by [or...]
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[or...]
9 hours ago, [[C...] said:

I don't think she said you will feel worse as you taper. But, Chrono, please correct me if I am reading your message incorrectly, but seems you were saying that if he updosed now he might be in worse tolerance withdrawal.

It's interesting that you attribute your sucess of the first taper to the liquid taper. I am considering switching to a liquid taper.

I look at switching products should be a last resort for myself.  If a person is handling their sxs, and steadily going down on their doses, it's better to stick with same drug/form.  I only say that based on the switching I've read about being pretty rough (sometimes an understatement).

I've stayed on my Clonazepam, and even lucky enough, the same brand, TEVA brand, oregonlady :hug:PS I do believe there are times when switching might be very beneficial, another decision best made by the "patient".

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[ro...]

Thank You to everyone who has responded to my post. I appreciate and welcome your suggestions.

I am feeling sick today. Another night of no sleep and awful symptoms again today. My anxiety has ramped up to the point where I just want to lay in bed and try to get some rest. I put on some sleep music from YouTube and am just lying down hoping that I will relax and the anxiety will go down. I may not post for a while. I have nausea and stomach pain. But I do appreciate everyone who has posted advice on how to proceed. I will consider everything. I am now going to try to calm down. I believe I have gone into a deep depression

I want to wish all of you a happy Memorial Day weekend.   Thanks again.  Rob

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[Cr...]
13 hours ago, [[C...] said:

I don't think she said you will feel worse as you taper. But, Chrono, please correct me if I am reading your message incorrectly, but seems you were saying that if he updosed now he might be in worse tolerance withdrawal.

Hi Carol, I believe that if he updosed he 'might' get some relief from the higher dose, but that relief may not last long and he will reach tolerance withdrawal at some point again on the higher dose. At that point he would once again have to decide whether to taper off or increase the dose yet again.

The higher dose you get to on a benzo the more side effects and the longer it will take to taper.

Updosing in rob's case is risky because we don't know how long the relief will last from the increase (if there even is any). He could luck out a buy himself a few more years or he could be back in tolerance withdrawal again in just a few weeks. Putting him right back to square one again, only on a higher dose.

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[Ca...]

Oh yes I agree with all of that but I thought Rob was saying you told him he would feel worse as he tapers which he might when actually you were pointing out the risks of updosing. That's whay I was trying to clarify for him.

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[ro...]

So I have done some research using Chat GPT. That is the artificial intelligence app.

This is the procedure I would use for extracting the active diazepam from a Valium pill. Once the diazepam is extracted I would make a solution of the diazepam powder into a solvent probably alcohol. then I would calculate the mg/ml of diazepam. Then I would use a graduated oral syringe to get my microdose-based on how many mg/ml.

Here is what the chat GPT came up with. I would have to go through the forums to see if someone has already used my proposed method for making a liquid diazepam solution out of a Valium pill. Does anyone wish to comment on the procedure? 

 

User
You
how to extract the active diazepam from a valium pill
ChatGPT
ChatGPT

Extracting the active diazepam from a Valium (diazepam) pill is not a safe or recommended practice outside of a laboratory setting with proper equipment and safety protocols. Diazepam is a controlled substance, and tampering with medication can have legal and health consequences. However, understanding the general principles of pharmaceutical extraction can be educational from a chemistry perspective.

If you're interested in the theoretical process for educational purposes, here’s a general outline of what such a procedure might involve:

Materials

  • Valium pills (diazepam)
  • Mortar and pestle (or another grinding tool)
  • Solvent (e.g., ethanol or another appropriate organic solvent)
  • Filtration apparatus (filter paper, funnel)
  • Evaporation setup (rotary evaporator or simple evaporation dish)
  • Protective equipment (gloves, goggles, lab coat)
  • Fume hood (for safe handling of solvents)

Procedure

  1. Grinding the Pills:

    • Crush the Valium pills into a fine powder using a mortar and pestle.
  2. Dissolution:

    • Transfer the powdered pill into a container.
    • Add an appropriate solvent (like ethanol) to the powder. Diazepam is more soluble in organic solvents than in water.
    • Stir the mixture thoroughly to ensure the diazepam dissolves in the solvent.
  3. Filtration:

    • Set up a filtration apparatus using filter paper and a funnel.
    • Pour the mixture through the filter paper to separate the undissolved fillers and binders from the solvent containing the dissolved diazepam.
  4. Evaporation:

    • Collect the filtrate (the liquid that has passed through the filter paper).
    • Evaporate the solvent to recover the diazepam. This can be done using a rotary evaporator for precision or by allowing the solvent to evaporate in an evaporation dish in a well-ventilated area (preferably under a fume hood).
    • Once the solvent has evaporated, the diazepam should remain as a residue.
  5. Recrystallization (optional):

    • For further purification, the diazepam can be recrystallized from a suitable solvent to remove impurities.

Safety and Legal Considerations

  • Safety: Handling solvents and pharmaceuticals requires proper safety protocols. Use gloves, goggles, and work in a well-ventilated area or under a fume hood to avoid inhaling fumes.
  • Legal: Diazepam is a controlled substance, and possessing or manipulating it without proper authorization is illegal in many jurisdictions. This description is purely educational and should not be attempted without appropriate legal permissions and safety measures.

Conclusion

This outline provides a general idea of the chemical extraction process but does not cover the specifics and complexities involved in pharmaceutical extractions. Actual extraction should be performed by trained professionals in a controlled laboratory environment to ensure safety and compliance with legal regulations.

4o
 
 
 

 

 

 

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[je...]

My take from all of that is this:

13 minutes ago, [[r...] said:

Extracting the active diazepam from a Valium (diazepam) pill is not a safe or recommended practice outside of a laboratory setting with proper equipment and safety protocols.

 

16 minutes ago, [[r...] said:

Actual extraction should be performed by trained professionals in a controlled laboratory environment to ensure safety and compliance with legal regulations.

There are much safer, easier and better ways to taper Valium such as getting liquid Valium from your pharmacist.

There is no need to extract the active ingredient in order to taper.

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[ro...]

I had a chemistry course in college it was called quantitative analysis. In the course , the professor said there is a certain quantity of acetyl Salicylic acid in a solution. The goal was to get the exact amount by weight of it . That was how much aspirin was in the solution. I was able to get 99% accuracy. This is how I would like to taper by using a solution of So many mg of diazepam per ml. For example, I extract 5mg of diazepam and put it in 1ml of ethanol alcohol. I put this in a graduated oral syringe. Depending on how many graduations are in the oral syringe I can get a precise amount of diazepam, has anyone on this forum tried anything that I am attempting to do? If I were to use a 2ml oral syringe I could get smaller amounts of diazepam per graduation. I am not sure how this would work. I only did this once with aspirin Acetyl Salicylic acid. With dry cutting a pill you would be assuming that the diazepam was exactly evenly distributed in the pill but using pure diazepam powder, you can be much more precise

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[ro...]

As far as getting liquid valium from a pharmacist. I believe only a compounding pharmacy would have this and then the cost would be much higher than getting the pills. I pay only $2.50 for 90 pills of valium.

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[ro...]

A 5mg pill of valium weighs much more than 5 mg. There are fillers and binders. When I was tapering from 30 mg of diazepam down to 12.8mg, I used a compounding pharmacy. They used pure diazepam powder in a solution of almond oil. I started at 6mg/ml and made my small cuts this way. The Taper went very well I could make cuts of .1mg of diazepam. The Doctor was addicted to valium and he wanted to help people like us on Benzo Buddies. He used a compounding pharmacy in MN to make up the solution and it was mailed to me in PA. I would receive a 4 week's supply of diazepam solution and if I ever had a problem during my taper I could call him and he would tell me if I needed to make smaller cuts or hold longer between cuts. This doctor was in his 80s but he understood how hard it was to withdraw from Valium. He was addicted for 5 years. But when he died I couldn't do it on my own, So I just got a script from a Doctor Since 12.8 mg was not easy to prescribe He updosed me to 15mg. At 12.8 mg I was having symptoms of Tinnitus and Burning Mouth syndrome. At 15 mg these symptoms went away. So for over 10 years, I was on 15 mg and I was symptom-free until now. I have the same symptoms that I had at 12.8mg. So I liked the liquid taper using an oral syringe because I could make very small and accurate cuts. This is how I would like to taper. I don't like dry cutting pills

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[ro...]

So I found out that if I take Phenibut my symptoms will disappear. I rarely use Phenibut as it is addictive and withdrawal is as bad as Benzo W/D. The container I have of Phenibut is 1 year or more older. That shows that I rarely use it. It takes about 6 hours or more for me to feel any effect. Phenibut binds to the Gaba B receptors like Baclofen. I just took some today, It has been over 1 month since I last took any, I don't recommend that anyone takes this supplement. The risks of regular use are addiction and dependency. Same as Benzos. But it acts more like the muscle relaxant Baclofen, I just needed to know If these burning sensations I am having are from tolerance W/D or do I have another illness. I will know by tomorrow afternoon. If my s/x go away that will confirm that I am in Tolerance W/D. I won't use Phenibut again if I have tolerance W/D. I would just proceed with a taper of the valium

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[Ca...]

My Rite Aid pharmacist says that she stocks liquid valium. This is in NY

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[Li...]
8 hours ago, [[r...] said:

As far as getting liquid valium from a pharmacist. I believe only a compounding pharmacy would have this and then the cost would be much higher than getting the pills. I pay only $2.50 for 90 pills of valium.

@[ro...]

A point of clarification if I may …

Per DailyMed, oral diazepam solutions in concentrations of 5mg/mL and 1mg/mL are available from two manufacturers (Chartwell and Hikma).

The cost is quite reasonable, even without insurance. Per Good Rx, 180mL of the 1mg/mL diazepam solution is $8.75 at RiteAid and $13.80 at CVS where I live.  

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[ro...]

Do you need a prescription from a Doctor to get these oral diazepam prescriptions?

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[Li...]
On 27/05/2024 at 16:10, [[r...] said:

Do you need a prescription from a Doctor to get these oral diazepam prescriptions?

@[ro...] Yes, you need a prescription to get the manufacturer’s oral diazepam solution.  

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[ro...]

I need help navigating this forum. I would like to know all the Taper methods people use. I am 69 years old and want to taper at a tiny percentage. I had been on a compounded diazepam solution in 2014. The solution was diazepam suspended in almond oil. I had an oral syringe and could decrease diazepam by .1mg.

Libertas said I could get an oral liquid solution of diazepam with a prescription from my Doctor. The problem is my doctor would probably not do this. I need to find a doctor that would do this. Maybe a psychiatrist who knows about benzodiazepine W/D. I am not sure if there are outpatient addiction places that have doctors who prescribe a liquid diazepam solution with graduated oral syringes. 

I made it down to 12.8mg of diazepam with the help of Dr. Raymond Armstrong. He used a compounding pharmacy, and I would get 1 month's supply of the compounded diazepam with the syringes. He advised me not to cut too fast and that my cuts and holds would be based on my symptoms. He died and I no longer had a doctor. My PCP would only prescribe 5mg diazepam pills. So I updosed from 12.8 mg to 15mg. The updose eliminated the bad W/D sx I had. I had burning sensations in my mouth and eyes

So from 2014 until a month ago, I had no symptoms. Now I have the same symptoms as I had when I was at 12.8 mg, I really want to go back to a liquid diazepam solution as this worked very well for me. How do the Benzobuddies on this forum find Doctors who will prescribe an oral liquid diazepam solution?

 

Or is there a taper strategy that uses alcohol or another solution that diazepam is soluble in? I guess my fear of cutting pills or other methods is that most of the diazepam pills consist of fillers and binders. I just weighed a 5mg diazepam and it was 168 mg. So only 5mg of this is the active diazepam.

 

I am so sensitive to cuts above 2%. I need a precise tapering method to make tiny cuts and hold. Can anyone direct me to a tapering strategy on this forum where I can make these small cuts? The UI of the site has changed since I was using it in 2014. I can't find the taper method I wish to use. Can someone please help me? I need direction and help that a dry cut of the diazepam may not remove the diazepam. Since only 5 mg out of 168 mg is the active diazepam

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