Taper Help | Zolpidem & Valium

[[No...]]

17 hours ago, [[C...] said:

As per my earlier comments, the only concern about tapering off the Ambien first is that you may have no to low dependency due to your approx. 8 weeks use of Valium, and probably none due to Ambien (because of its very short half-life and your one-a-day use). But the longer you take Valium, the greater the chance of developing or deepening your dependency.

There is no way for us to be precise about these things. But in your shoes, I think I would attempt to taper off Valium first and see how it goes. If you develop difficulties doing this, and depending what they are, you might decide to switch your taper to the Ambien.

I understand your reticence, but to get off, you will need to take a first step. And only you can make the decision about doing this and the particular path you take.

Thank you so much. I’m going to take a leap of faith and go for it on my own.

[[No...]]

On 14/04/2024 at 01:51, [[C...] said:

You will need to talk more to your doctor about this, the reasons for the suggestion, the risks vs the potential benefits. This is true of every medicine of course. And I'm not going to get into making medical decisions for you - these, properly, should be between you and your doctor.

I got started thanks to you. I’m on 4mg now. My first reduction was last night and I’m feeling it today, but it’s not the worst.

[[Co...]]

11 hours ago, [[N...] said:

I got started thanks to you. I’m on 4mg now. My first reduction was last night and I’m feeling it today, but it’s not the worst.

Good news! But for clarity, 4mg of which medication?

[[al...]]

On 15/04/2024 at 04:25, [[N...] said:

Thank you, please let me know.

The article is "Mechanism of action of the hypnotic zolpidem in vivo." by F.Crestani, J.Martin, U. Rudolph

[[No...]]

16 hours ago, [[C...] said:

Good news! But for clarity, 4mg of which medication?

This is the Valium. And I plan to hold there for a week then go down on the Zolpidem to 6.25mg. I’m doing good so far, just restless.

[[No...]]

14 hours ago, [[a...] said:

The article is "Mechanism of action of the hypnotic zolpidem in vivo." by F.Crestani, J.Martin, U. Rudolph

You rock, thank you!

[[Co...]]

6 hours ago, [[N...] said:

This is the Valium. And I plan to hold there for a week then go down on the Zolpidem to 6.25mg. I’m doing good so far, just restless.

Good job, @[No...]. 

[[No...]]

On 19/04/2024 at 01:56, [[C...] said:

Good job, @[No...]. 

Zolpidem is now down to 6.25mg. I don’t know if anyone has tried this but I amused some valerian root to help with my anxiety and it was helpful.

[[...]]

@[No...] I was in a similar situation.  I was having daily rebound anxiety with ambien.  Took me a long time to figure that out.  I then transitioned to a long acting benzo klonopin.  I was fighting insomnia at the time so getting off a sleep aid was incredibly difficult given the daily rebound withdrawal and physical/psychological dependency.

If it was me, I would write out a taper plan of the ambien first, likely over a couple months.  Then if I was doing okay at that point I would work my way down on the valium.  I would suspect this would be a smoother transition according to the Ashton manual.  

I would caution the use of other supplements or medications for insomnia.  For me personally, this lead to a several year journey of trying just about everything, when in the end it made everything worse.  Now I focus on natural ways for stress management and healthy living (exercise, sunshine, yoga, healthy diet, no caffeine, minimal screen time, etc).  Two approaches via negativa- what can I remove to help myself (caffeine, screen time, toxic environments, processed foods, etc) and via additiva- what can I add to help my health (exercise, sunshine, meditation, etc).

 

[[No...]]

[[No...]]

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11 hours ago, [[N...] said:

Thanks for the help. Did you find the long acting benzo to be helpful? I’m on 4mg of Diazepam, but it doesn’t touch sleep. My preference would be to discontinue the Valium first, but I don’t know if I’d ever heal still taking Ambien.

It helped for a couple months.  Then tolerance kicked in.  Pharmaceuticals have never really helped me long term and I think they've made many things much worse in my life.  This is why I tapered off.  I still take trazodone while I'm going through benzo withdrawals but as soon as the withdrawal intensity settles down I'm tapering off that next.

I wish I would have realized sooner that meds/supplements weren't going to help me.  There is a little bit of freedom knowing there is no magic pill.  Now I can focus prurely on living a healthy and clean life.  It still sucks but I'm starting to accept it.

[[No...]]

[[No...]]

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18 hours ago, [[N...] said:

This is inspiring to put it mildly. I’m down to 4mg Valium and 6.25mg Ambien. I’m going to keep chipping away at the Valium this week. Is 7 days long enough to feel the full effects of withdrawal? My drop from 5mg to 4mg was uncomfortable but tolerable. Should I get myself down to 3mg if I feel ready or is it too soon?

Have you looked into NAD+?

Take it slow.  Ashton manual recommends a reduction of 1 mg valium every 1 to 2 weeks.  

I did okay on may taper till the last bit and had horrible withdrawals.  I kept pushing through which in hindsight may be the reason why I'm dealing with protracted withdrawals now.  It sucks, but I was inpatient.  I would say I felt the worsening effects about 4-5 days after a dose reduction.

I haven't looked into NAD+.  But I probably looked into every other molecule out there discovered and marketed for medicine/supplement/healing.  Most of it is BS in my opinion.   But when we feel so bad it is so easy to want to try these things.  I've wasted countless dollars on supplements, etc.

 

[[No...]]

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My insomnia started like 9 years ago. It was mostly situational when I had a stressful workday or upcoming long workday (I have a demanding stressful job).  But I could usually sleep on the weekends and get rest on my days off.  I started taking Ambien to help sleep.  At first, everything seemed ok.  But after a few months I needed higher dosages and also having to supplement with Benadryl.  Then my mental health began to decline.  I was having severe anxiety worse during the day.  Started having SI.  I was profoundly depressed.  I couldn't sleep naturally anymore, no matter what.  I didn't know what was going on, I thought it was all the insomnia making me feel bad.  The only time I would feel ok was about 45 minutes after I took the Ambien.  So my life became one where I felt awful, anxious, depressed all day and would only get solace for a few hours after I took the Ambien.  Took me a long while but I finally realized the Ambien was making me feel worse.  While I certainly had my issues before it, I was never as bad I got from it.  I noticed I was having rebound anxiety or interdose withdrawal.  So I quit...cold turkey.  This was a really bad idea.  I ended up in front of a psychiatrist for the first time in my life and was started on Klonopin and Lexapro.  I stabilized and did okay for a while.  Then the same thing happened with Klonopin.  I couldn't sleep, was depressed, anxious, you name it.  I started adding medications with the Klonopin to help sleep (Benadryl, doxepin, bellsomra, magnesium, many many more) with enough success to get me through a few hours sleep.  Years passed by.  Slugging away being miserable.  Therapy didn't work.  Nothing did.  Thought I was losing my mind.  One day I went to see a different therapist, this time a psychologist.  He mentioned "maybe it's the benzo holding you back".  This really stuck with me.  I knew deep down he was right.  But I was struggling just to survive the day that Klonopin became my crux.  But after so many years, I desperately wanted my life back.  So started the Klonopin taper which took me 7 months.  I jumped 2 months ago.

 

The short answer is yes, Ambien messed me up and so did Klonopin.  Daily interdose withdrawal.  Rebound anxiety.  It's horrible.  I don't think humans should consume these drugs on a regular basis.  There are some medical problems that a lifelong script may be justified (epilepsy etc)...but for most humans this stuff causes more problems in the end.   

[[No...]]

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16 hours ago, [[N...] said:

That resonates with me so much. Ever since I started taking Ambien 6 months ago I’ve got drastically downhill. This was my only prescription. I developed severe anxiety, nerve pain, and muscle pain. I was later put on Valium. As you know, I’m tapering both. After reading this, it makes me think I need to cut off the Ambien fully before I let the Valium withdrawal get any worse. I’m only on 6.25mg of the Ambien. Does a jump from that seem silly or is it necessary to taper if I still have some Valium 4mg in my system? I hear you on slow and steady wins the race but you would believe how much I’ve deteriorated physically and mentally since taking Ambien. I’ve come off of Valium once before, and I was never nearly this bad.

So in short should I cut the Ambien first if I think it may be causing chronic pain issues and anxiety? I never had any of it before. And would the jump from 6.25mg be too much?

Thank you for the help!

What was the reason you got a prescription for Ambien?  Was your back pain keeping you awake?  Or was their other distress in your life?

What chronic pain issues are you experiencing?  Anything new?  Or all related to the recent back injury?

 

[[No...]]

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Coming off antidepressants can be extremely difficult.  I struggled coming off of Lexapro a few years ago.  In medicine, especially psych, there is this theme that side effects from medications are then treated with other medications.  In my opinion, it's almost never a good plan.  This is the via additiva approach that is very common in medicine.  

Back pain can be significantly debilitating.  Did they get images?  Have you seen a spine or pain physician?

It's very common in chronic pain to have insomnia.  Which then worsens mood and worsens pain.  It's a vicious cycle.

I got stuck in the same loop seeking Ambien every night.  For me, I dug a much bigger hole that I have been stuck in for years that I'm still crawling out of.

Hang in there bro.  You are already taking steps to take control over your life.  Make sure you have a good doc and therapist on your side through all this.

 

[[No...]]

Edited April 25 by [No...]
Typo

[[...]]

Since it seems like you're in a bad spot maybe just hold where you are for a week or two.  Then if things are stable go down on the Ambien a little.  6.25 sounds like a big jump to me.  Can you cut the pill in half? You are on valium and gabapentin which both should offset some of the withdrawal discomfort.

[[No...]]

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1 hour ago, [[N...] said:

It was interesting. I didn’t feel much from the Ambien jumps, but the reduction from 5mg to 4mg on the Valium rocked me a bit. That’s why I was asking which to do first. What do you think? It’s kind of been in tandem.

If it was me, I'd taper off the Ambien first.  Then the valium.  Then the gabapentin.  I would give my brain months or longer to heal and normalize.  I would never go back to gabaergics.  If I was still struggling despite every non-pharm measure I would consider the lesser evils of gabapentin and ssris.  But probably not.

 

But that's me.