Mark Horowitz 'academic coaching'

[Guest [Do...]]

On 18/05/2024 at 20:28, [[M...] said:

Do they have patient success rates? What are they offering? How is what they are doing better and beyond what you are already doing? 

If they happily will swipe your credit card they should happily answer these questions.

The coach i wasted my money with, acknowledge, most clients were dingle time clients and never showed up again and i am sure that answers some questions, shame i didnt heard that before i made my appointment.

[[Co...]]

5 hours ago, [[R...] said:

@[Co...] Since these discussions are unfolding publicly, although they could have occurred privately through direct messaging from initial contact from your admin, I feel compelled to express my thoughts openly as well about how this could have been approached versus what happened here. I should also say for the sake of transparency that I did message you privately to tell you this conversation was happening and essentially invite you into it to say please take down my comment if I did not phrase the discussion in a way that is satisfactory for Benzo Buddies.

Hi @[Re...]

I was already aware of this thread late last night (I live in Europe) before I received your PM this morning. Frankly, there was nothing I felt I needed to immediately address in your PM, but I did wish to post to this thread. And this is what I did.

5 hours ago, [[R...] said:

This professional and respectful tone of your explanation is quite different than the tone of the prior communications with me previously by your admin. I am not looking to win here or "get into it" with anyone, as I have said before on this thread. But I do need to express this as a member of this forum who has been polite and helpful to others I was surprised by the previous tone.

I detected nothing amiss here in your interactions with @[je...]. She raised some legitimate points and sought clarifications and explanations from you. When the explanations were unsatisfactory, she explained why.

We do not necessarily expect members to understand why our rules are the way the are, and why we take the decisions we take. So, we take opportunities to explain them where we can.

You did not address @[je...]'s concerns and did appear to deflect. For example, you described Angie Peacock as "the most clinically informed coach focused on data from patients". But to be clear, Peacock is not a clinician and should not be running 'clinics'.

5 hours ago, [[R...] said:

It seems there are some issues to be worked out in regards to how you move forward in approaching this topic overall that clearly have nothing to do with me. I understand the need to have a conversation about this that applies to all members but it also could have been done without singling anyone out.

As I explained, your post(s) provided me a good opportunity to raise some of these issues with all members. But irrespective of this, I did wish to address your post(s) - I was attempting to avoid stating this. You have posted a lot of recommendations for 'coaches' - some/many/most of which appear to be unqualified as counsellors or doctors.

This is barely a moderation matter; but it is an important policy and ethical matter. This is why I am posting about it.

5 hours ago, [[R...] said:

Regardless, I regret that this conversation has dominated the thread for a new member. Something like this creates stress for those sharing and I hope your moderators will take that into account in the future.

It happens. We allow for more leeway in how threads develop than many other forums. Within reason, threads going offtrack for a while - especially when addressing an important point - is not of the greatest concern to us.

5 hours ago, [[R...] said:

Thank you, Colin for all that you do for the members of Benzo Buddies. I know running a site like this is not easy. All the best to everyone always.

Rebecca, I'd like you to know that the team and I are approaching this more from discussional and educational perspective. But, ultimately, we feel these are important points for us to make and our requests (or requirements) for explanations for members to justify recommendations for unqualified, unlicensed, uninsured, unsupervised 'coaches', with no professional oversight from a governing body with robust complaints procedures are wholly reasonable and justified.

[[...]]

@[Co...] and others, from past discussions or contacts, is there a benzo wise doctor in India whom you can help locate please? My health is going down , symptoms are increasing in intensity. Mental health is getting affected very badly. I pushed myself to travel to the usa for my son's graduation. Returned home and found myself severely jetlagged. I'm waiting to reset to my regular hours here so that I can spread out my doses. It's terrible that I can't find a doctor  😞 

[[Co...]]

5 hours ago, [[r...] said:

you are suggesting a member contacts Angie for tapering advice. To the best of my knowledge Angie is not a medical professional, she is not licensed and to charge money for tapering advice would be problematic.

For clarity, the above is quote is of @[je...], not @[re...].

5 hours ago, [[r...] said:

The short of it .......................YES she is suggesting this and I think she should be allowed to. Angie is certainly better than the quack doctors  that keep torturing their patients (similar to war crimes, just unknowingly)  in regards to these medications.

The BB admins and I have taken the decision to not allow recommendations for unqualified coaches for the reasons @[je...] and I (and other team members) have already explained here (and elsewhere). There is little point in me rehashing them again in this post.

5 hours ago, [[r...] said:

I am just being honest here. So are you all saying that a DOCTOR is going to be MORE qualified to taper a poor soul off of these medicines than say someone like Angie P?  She is WAY more capable.  And you are doing more harm than good to send them to a doctor over her IMO. And then they are just gonna come back here in pain and suffering anyway.

I do actually appreciate your position and concern. But the answer to some doctors not being as sympathetic or knowledgeable as the might or should be is not to seek out and recommend those with no qualifications, professional indemnity insurance, etc.

5 hours ago, [[r...] said:

I guess doctors since they have a license get carte blanche to destroy people's lives by taking a patient off a 15 year SSRI use period in 1 month Yes this is happening right now with someone i am trying to help on the phone mentally and they are DESTROYED!!!!!!!!!!! A serious WTH!!!!!!!!!!!

Whatever (legitimate) complaints you might have about doctors, there are guardrails and avenues for redress which do not exist when we instead use an unqualified person to direct our medical care.

5 hours ago, [[r...] said:

I understand you have to protect yourselves from liabilities and legal action if advice on here given has a negative outcome on someone's health. It could come back and bite the owner of this forum. I completely get it. It is a slippery slope.

Actually - and this has come up a number of times - this has nothing to do with liability. It is quite clear that individual BB members are responsible for the content they post here. Any potential liability is theirs (and yours). No, this is about BB (the admins and me) doing what we feel is the right thing to do. It is about us wishing to do our best to protect members (and the casual, non-member reader) from potentially harmful recommendations.

5 hours ago, [[r...] said:

I wish there was a way that this site could be protected legally from litigation and still offer referrals to someone like Angie Peacock. I think you should get a bit modernized at this point since the medical profession is not getting it still.  And hopefully allow these kinds of referrals yet with protection from legal action. I don't know if this is possible. The bottom line should be the health and protection of your members first and foremost and to suggest a doctor over Angie P especially for a newbie is only perpetuating more sickness in the world.

BB is already protected from such litigation. BB is hosted in the US and Section 230 applies. But we feel our responsibility to members is greater than merely abiding by minimum legal requirements.

5 hours ago, [[r...] said:

At a minimum maybe someone could figure out a new list of Benzo wise docs and it could be front and center maybe on the home page? So someone could at least find a professional medical provider that is benevolent in their taper process.

We might compile a list. Although not personally sold on this, I am open to it. I would suggest, though, that the doctor is first consulted about being added to such a list. Some prefer not to appear in these lists.

5 hours ago, [[r...] said:

I think Rebecca is right on here. Rules or no rules. It doesn't change the fact that she is morally and ethically correct.  

@[Re...] and @[re...], you can express your opinions. But the admins and I determine community rules and standards.

[[Co...]]

50 minutes ago, [[r...] said:

And I do believe Angie P does provide a disclaimer on her site and her coaching services. So there is that

A disclaimer is meaningless. In most (all, I think) jurisdictions, disclaimers cannot override statutory obligations. If the jurisdiction requires counsellors and doctors (or those who act like them) to be licenced, a disclaimer is nugatory.

[[Co...]]

33 minutes ago, [[D...] said:

This might be as usefull as obnline reviews for a shop, a movie or any other service that will make you spend an ammount of money without not really knowing what to expect.

I have used one once a coach's service and despite i wont mention the name, it was one of the top ones, one of the most known and mentioned with its youtube channel and stuff but the experience was awefull and that person wasnt anything closer to the people that speks in the videos, i mean, it showed no interest and didnt tell me anything usefull, letting me do all the talking and just saying how much sorry it was for my suffering, i can certainly say that it was the boggest waste of money i have done lately. It would have been a waste of money even it the price was 5$.

And i would have appreciated i had feedback from other members before i wasted my money in that out of pure desperation, cause that is what they are using to take advantage of us.

Hello @[Do...]

Your experience examples the problem at hand. The coach you consulted, from what you have written above, was acting as a de facto counsellor. In most jurisdictions, counsellors should be licenced, belong to a professional organisation, and hold professional indemnity insurance. None of those can apply if the 'coach' is unlicensed.

On the face of it, your were revealing a lot in that session - this is why the counsellor/psychotherapist must know what they are doing and have all the appropriate additional safeguards in place (I won't list them all again).

I am glad that you had the good sense and ability to extract yourself from this potentially dangerous counsellor-client relationship.

[Guest [Do...]]

35 minutes ago, [[r...] said:

Hey Dolvian man I hope you are doing good today. 

Shoutout!!!!!!

I'm fighting bud.

i hope you are good on post jump.

 

[[Co...]]

36 minutes ago, [[D...] said:

The coach i wasted my money with, acknowledge, most clients were dingle time clients and never showed up again and i am sure that answers some questions, shame i didnt heard that before i made my appointment.

Yes. And we will do our best to ensure that such recommendations cease occurring at BB.

[[Co...]]

[Guest [Do...]]

13 minutes ago, [[C...] said:

Hello @[Do...]

Your experience examples the problem at hand. The coach you consulted, from what you have written above, was acting as a de facto counsellor. In most jurisdictions, counsellors should be licenced, belong to a professional organisation, and hold professional indemnity insurance. None of those can apply if the 'coach' is unlicensed.

On the face of it, your were revealing a lot in that session - this is why the counsellor/psychotherapist must know what they are doing and have all the appropriate additional safeguards in place (I won't list them all again).

I am glad that you had the good sense and ability to extract yourself from this potentially dangerous counsellor-client relationship.

Hi @[Co...]

Yeah, you got the point, as i didnt mention any names i can freely say i felt decieved, i watched many youtube videos in wich it (i use it to not point if is he or she) talked widely about tapering, coping strategies, and so on, in the actual appointment i could really sense that it didnt wanna get in any topic about medication, tapering, or anything appart from listening and "petting" my back.

In the website it has a disclaimer saying something like "Disclaimer: I am not a licensed M.D. I do not diagnose or treat any physical, emotional, or mental illness."

Edited May 21 by Guest

[Guest [Do...]]

7 minutes ago, [[C...] said:

Yes. And we will do our best to ensure that such recommendations cease occurring at BB.

I was actually asking for the opposite, for real feedback from people that already used that service but i respect that it goes against the rules.

[[Re...]]

@[Co...] I understand the necessity of safeguarding your members from bad actors in any business.  You keep using the term "qualified" and there seems to be some discussion around how to define that. Before concluding my participation in this thread, I'd like to clarify a point regarding terminology. When I used the term 'clinical,' I meant it in the context of 'relating to the observation and treatment of actual patients rather than theoretical or laboratory studies.' At no point did I imply any assertions about a coach running a clinic. Despite our differing perspectives on how this matter was handled, I respectfully agree to disagree with you and your team on that. I hope you have a wonderful rest of your day.

 

 

 

[[re...]]

Ok if you are protected than that is great to know.

Then I REALLY don't see how Angie P could be a potentially harmful recommendation. 

 

How is this  even possible over an ill informed lazy staus quo  doctor (that really could care less about evolving his/her knowledge in regards to medication harms and adverse reactions) that has NO idea how to taper.

I find it hard to believe that a benzo wise doctor would be reluctant to be on a site like this. As most benzo wise docs seem  to be pay out of pocket. If anything they would be thankful for the extra business. But who knows I am just speculating here. 

Either way I think a list would be a MAJOR improvement for the safety of the members here especially the newbies. 

Then maybe these discussions don't have to get so out of control. Just a thought. 

Thank you for hearing us all. It doesn't go unappreciated. 

 

 

 

[Guest [Do...]]

14 minutes ago, [[r...] said:

Either way I think a list would be a MAJOR improvement for the safety of the members here especially the newbies.

Totally agree here,

The same way i wasted my money in that coach i wasted my money in real Psychiatrists that i even paid them for getting me in this hell.

I am not against coaches nor doctors, i am against bad coaches and bad doctors.

I do think it would be of great help to have a list of them where BB members could give feedback and that would be indeed better to get rid of those that want to take advantage of us and at the same time recommend those who really can help us.

 

Edited May 21 by Guest

[[Co...]]

21 minutes ago, [[D...] said:

I was actually asking for the opposite, for real feedback from people that already used that service but i respect that it goes against the rules.

I meant restrict recommendations for, specifically, unlicensed coaches.

[[re...]]

And if we are going to talk CERTIFICATION and license which is understandable. What does this include really. I understand the legal aspects and we can't be in the wild west in a modern society. 

But if 'licensed' counselors, coaches, or whatever else are not going to evolve with acknowledgement from the real harms from everything from vaccines to Benzos to everything in between. Then what help can they really give for the poor souls that have suffered greatly because of medication harms either from fast tapers or adverse reactions? In their education and formal training and subsequent internship is there even anything they are being educated in regards to these issues? They always seem to recognize trauma at the hands of family members, friends, lovers, coworkers, bosses, etc but to me it seems they RARELY have any tools to provide help from real trauma at the hands of DOCTORS and medicine harm. 

And we can't discount that most counseling services that I have seen (and also have been a participant of) talk about "your ptsd original condition returning" and NEVER drug damage/adverse reactions and they too seem to be on the "addiction train" at least with benzos ala Dr. Drew style who even has said " I am not a fan of the slow taper" WHAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Please anyone on here provide examples of 'professional' counselors you may have seen who have understood not only BENZO/head med damage and dangers, but ALL drug adverse reactions (even anti nausea, steroid, abx, etc) and the ongoing ill health you have had to endure because of it. 

Drug damage even in these 'talk therapy' circles will not address drug damage of any kind. And seem to gaslight like the rest. 

This has been my experience at least from what I have seen objectively and my OWN experience as well. 

Edited May 21 by [re...]

[[re...]]

This isn't conspiracy but we ARE up against a monster of a system in regards to science, medical practice and the rest. And could one even GET certified if they are practicing something that is going to take away the bloated and over prescribed ca$h cow that medicine has become. 

it's like "WHAT!!!!!!!!!! you want people OFF of these medicines how dare you!!!!!!!!!!"

No license for you 

Just sayin. 

[[Co...]]

28 minutes ago, [[R...] said:

@[Co...] I understand the necessity of safeguarding your members from bad actors in any business.  You keep using the term "qualified" and there seems to be some discussion around how to define that. Before concluding my participation in this thread, I'd like to clarify a point regarding terminology. When I used the term 'clinical,' I meant it in the context of 'relating to the observation and treatment of actual patients rather than theoretical or laboratory studies.' At no point did I imply any assertions about a coach running a clinic. Despite our differing perspectives on how this matter was handled, I respectfully agree to disagree with you and your team on that. I hope you have a wonderful rest of your day.

"Qualified" does not mean someone with some lived experience who then claims to be qualified. There is reason why counsellors, psychotherapists, doctors, nurses, pharmacists must be licensed (which necessarily means they are qualified). I think a debate about semantics (the meaning of 'qualified') is a distraction.

'Clinicians' have 'clinical experience' - not those who work around them. The point I (and I think @[je...]) were making is that Angie Peacock does not possess 'clinical experience' in the usual sense of the term.

[Guest [Do...]]

16 minutes ago, [[r...] said:

And if we are going to talk CERTIFICATION and license which is understandable. What does this include really. I understand the legal aspects and we can't be in the wild west in a modern society. 

But if 'licensed' counselors, coaches, or whatever else are not going to evolve with acknowledgement from the real harms from everything from vaccines to Benzos to everything in between then what help can they really give for the poor souls that have suffered greatly because of medication harms either from fast tapers or adverse reactions? In their education and formal training and subsequent internship is there even anything they are being educated in regards to these issues. They always seem to recognize trauma at the hands of family members, friends, lovers, coworkers, bosses, etc but to me it seems they RARELY have any tools to provide help to trauma at the hands of DOCTORS and medicine harm. 

But we can't discount that most counseling services that I have seen (and also have been a participant of) talk about "your ptsd original condition returning" and NEVER drug damage/adverse reactions and they too seem to be on the "addiction train" at least with benzos ala Dr. Drew style who even has said " I am not a fan of the slow taper" WHAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Please anyone on here provide examples of 'professional' counselors you may have seen who have understood not only BENZO/head med damage and dangers, but ALL drug adverse reactions (even anti nausea, steroid, abx, etc) and the ongoing ill health you have had to endure because of it. 

Drug damage even in these 'talk therapy' circles will not address drug damage of any kind. And seem to gaslight like the rest. 

This has been my experience at least from what I have seen objectively and my OWN experience as well. 

Last night i watched the documentary Medication Normal, doctors who pushed the people in the film to drugs are all profesional and licensed. All the doctors who got me in this nightmare were licensed and profesionals and probably it aplies to most people in BB.

I agree @[re...] that being licensed is not a warranty of nothing.

 

 

Edited May 21 by Guest

[[Co...]]

37 minutes ago, [[r...] said:

How is this  even possible over an ill informed lazy staus quo  doctor (that really could care less about evolving his/her knowledge in regards to medication harms and adverse reactions) that has NO idea how to taper.

Such doctors are potentially subject to ethical misconduct or even legal consequences. (The fact that such charges are too difficult to bring about is another matter.) But the solution is to not then seek out - or worse, recommend - those with no professional responsibilities and oversight.

[[Co...]]

28 minutes ago, [[D...] said:

Totally agree here,

The same way i wasted my money in that coach i wasted my money in real Psychiatrists that i even paid them for getting me in this hell.

I am not against coaches nor doctors, i am against bad coaches and bad doctors.

I do think it would be of great help to have a list of them where BB members could give feedback and that would be indeed better to get rid of those that want to take advantage of us and at the same time recommend those who really can help us.

An unqualified doctor or counsellor (a 'coach') is necessarily bad. It is utterly irresponsible and should automatically disqualify them as a provider when seeking withdrawal or taper services.

[Guest [Do...]]

5 minutes ago, [[C...] said:

"Qualified" does not mean someone with some lived experience who then claims to be qualified. There is reason why counsellors, psychotherapists, doctors, nurses, pharmacists must be licensed (which necessarily means they are qualified). I think a debate about semantics (the meaning of 'qualified') is a distraction.

'Clinicians' have 'clinical experience' - not those who work around them. The point I (and I think @[je...]) were making is that Angie Peacock does not possess 'clinical experience' in the usual sense of the term.

I also agree something here that is: If you have experience in tapering cause you have gone through one yourself it doesnt make you an expert, mostly in Benzo WD that it is way different from one person to another, and everyone has a different rate, speed, symptoms, etc etc and that works with someone may be a disaster for someone else.

[Guest [Do...]]

9 minutes ago, [[C...] said:

Such doctors are potentially subject to ethical misconduct or even legal consequences. (The fact that such charges are too difficult to bring about is another matter.) But the solution is to not then seek out - or worse, recommend - those with no professional responsibilities and oversight.

I see your point now and i agree that at least licensed pros can be sued and face accountability and not the same for those so called coaches.

In fact all those coaches will add a disclaimer in their sites to avoid any responsability

Edited May 21 by Guest

[[re...]]

But clinical experience suggests learning from books and literature based on a dinosaur and outdated model in regards mental health as well as Benzos/Psych medicines and their long term effects on the brain. 

These people are still on the Freud train of thought really and it is really sad. 

When NOW we have an elephant in the room with drugging the brain and it's possible serious consequence and even the learning of new ways to cope WHEN someone is drugged into oblivion. 

This is whole other level to deal with considering the vast number of 'medicated' citizens for mental issues. This seems to not be getting addressed in modern 'certified' practitioners in regards to counseling and the rest with mental health. 

But the 'clinicians' will keep talking about your family issues without even addressing that maybe your drug is causing your issues.

It is madness and unknowingly criminal on a mass scale.  

[[Ka...]]

44 minutes ago, [[C...] said:

I meant restrict recommendations for, specifically, unlicensed coaches.

Please may I respectfully urge an update to the community guidelines to enable members to know exactly what currently is/is not permitted. That would give clarity for the avoidance of any doubt. Then members may abide by relevant rules in place.