Mark Horowitz 'academic coaching'

[[Ka...]]

I’m a giver in my posts & I’ve nothing left 

[[re...]]

I have a take on all of this. Just what the world needs 

Most psychiatrists are basically in the $250-300 per hour range so Mr. Horowitz is not that far off.  My benzo wise psych in Phoenix charged close to this.

 

I can't really consider him a Benzo coach as he has more credentials than say someone like Angie P whom I LOVE btw. And I believe he is in England so he has to go on the scale over there and I think it is very comparable what he is getting. He definitely IS a bit on the higher side of the curve (see what I did there) with his pricing. Although I don't think he is all that off in terms of a competitive price. 

Edited May 19 by [re...]

[[Bu...]]

10 minutes ago, [[r...] said:

He definitely IS a bit on the higher side of the curve (see what I did there)

😃  Yes, I do see and I appreciate it! 

[[re...]]

 

In saying this I think (and this is NOT a dig on here) that BB can become an echo chamber of sickness and helplessness and in that, one has to be very careful not to get pulled in too deep with a victim mentality and/or horror stories that can run around in your thought process unabated.   And sometimes searching outside of this echo chamber can actually be a good thing for support even though unfortunately you gotta pay.

 IMO we are ALL victims here of a medical system that has abandoned our cries for help. I don't believe we have to STAY victims though and we have many avenues for healing. But sometimes I see people that sit on computers all day as I get more and more in the groups outside of here and constantly looking up things and they won't go on a hardcore walk/run to get their blood pumping cause it 'revs them up'

Of course it is going to rev u up, something like this is gonna rev up even a NORMAL person. But are you telling me that identifying with a bunch symptoms constantly and being on the computer (a SCROLLING and constantly moving screen which is gonna be found in time to alter brainwaves  in some way i believe)  all the time is not gonna rev you up.  There is a certain 'mind over matter' that people do feel helpless and with good reason. But sometimes this helplessness almost gets to be stronger than when someone like myself reaches out and says "you can do it you just gotta MAKE yourself in the face of ugly symptoms" People get offended that you are negating the seriousness of their symptoms when you are doing anything but. And to me if it was someone say in your family doing this that has no idea is WAY different than someone on here like myself that has experienced much of what you have and understands the seriousness of your condition. 

You are just trying to offer something truly positive (from me it is usually clinical trial based) that won't be a dampening fix of your symptoms quickly but a LONG TERM solution.  Now I don't discount ANYONE that has had a cold turkey done to them, poly drugged and can't literally stand up. And this doesn't apply to those poor souls who can't even use their legs. 

But if you can be on the computer all day and you can walk then you can get moving and challenge yourself in the face of your symptoms. 

Be careful with the thoughts as they can be very powerful in all of this hell. 

 

[[Ma...]]

52 minutes ago, [[r...] said:

Most psychiatrists are basically in the $250-300 per hour range so Mr. Horowitz is not that far off.  My benzo wise psych in Phoenix charged close to this.

I guess Id like to hear more generally from people about what he and others of his ilk are offering, and what their track records are.  I see lots of people, admins and members, just throwing names around on here without any vetting of their clinical qualifications - understandable because it’s hard to assess.  If it is just a taper plan which you can find by asking any number of people on here or reading about, I’d suggest using some of the many resources available here and finding either a benzo wise psychiatrist or prescriber (they’re out there, you have to look around).  I’d also recommend a good therapist over a “benzo coach” to help with your every day life stresses, including and beyond benzo WD. Again, they’re out there but you have to search for them.  
 

I’m well aware that Dr Horowitz is doing lots of research and has published lots of papers and a set of deprescibing guidelines in the field of benzodiazepines.  That’s potentially great for everyone.  Im sorry for sounding callous, but that does not in and of itself qualify him as a clinical therapist in such matters.  

I was having a struggle earlier in my taper and it took some searching around, but I found an excellent psychiatrist who was on my insurance plan.  I saw him for a little over an hour and discussed everything with him including my taper plan and his experiences getting patients free of benzodiazepines.  It was affordable (less than $100 USD) and money well spent because he was licensed and had a ton of experience getting his patients off of benzos and other psych meds.  

I’ve seen lots of regret from people about using people charging hundreds of dollars an hour, only to be disappointed.  Obviously anyone can choose a service no matter how ridiculous or expensive it is.  In the end it’s still going to be caveat emptor (buyer beware)  But I will continue to press for answers from some of these so called providers.  Because I am genuinely concerned about the potential for people being taken advantage of - it happens every day in medicine.    

 

 
  

[[re...]]

Very good observations Mattwahoo. I am in agreeance with a lot of it. And if I remember correctly you are a medical worker/doctor so you will have much more discernment. 

What I have seen in my own journey/experience in two states (Mass and AZ) is that the better people in the medical trade usually don't accept most insurances. And are pay out of pocket. Which unfortunately is more money. 

I am definitely not saying you cannot find a proper taper person in all of this. But what I have seen it is very difficult to find a benzo wise doc in general never mind in an insurance provider network. Seems from my own experience all the insurance docs were VERY generic and certainly didn't wanna prescribe Diazepam (It is such a demonized drug in America for some reason, I feel because it is just so cheap) and had no idea and did the cut a quarter then half then done. But I had prior knowledge with benzos so I just needed a doc to keep prescribing on my schedule. Say if you are coming off the street so to speak and they don't know you many docs think you are 'shopping'. It is so weird because of the DEA watch crap. 

Edited May 19 by [re...]

[[or...]]

I found it impossible the first few times I was tapered by a doctor here in my area, too fast, 25% from 1mg each month.  I felt pretty bad all of that time, well, 3 months and I was down to just the last quarter.  I was breaking it with my fingernails, not weighing. I knew nothing, and neither did my MD make any suggestions.  Then I had some sort numbness happen to my whole left side.  After that the MD put me back on 1 mg.  Shortly after, I was determined to go slow as it just seemed common sense to taper much slower.  I had a bad time tapering about 11% is what others here helped me make a good guess.

Got my scale after learning from others how to do a slow, dry micro-taper and the rest is history, well, the first half of my taper.  During that time though, as I digressed about what I got so lucky with for about 3 months.  An NP that knew the Ashton Manual, quoted it before I said anything about it, but I knew he knew about a slow taper.  He encouraged me a lot and know I belonged to a help-forum too, he was with me 100% and then the clinic didn't renew his contract.  Very poor part of CA. 

My main point was I can't agree more that we are up against it having few doctors that are on track with this, and I feel more safe here with the info from Peers that know a lot more from experience than any book could teach.  The thing I try to remember is each one of us is different, with some similarities.  Ashton said that it was best for a person to choose their own taper speed by listening to there bodies, so that's how I'm doing it and having quality of life, oregonlady  PS Making my own decisions when able to instead of blindly accepting someone else's way has benefited me most.

[[Ma...]]

29 minutes ago, [[r...] said:

What I have seen in my own journey/experience in two states (Mass and AZ) is that the better people in the medical trade usually don't accept most insurances. And are pay out of pocket. Which unfortunately is more money. 

 

Fair point, and you are correct, I was fortunate to find such a person.  I guess my point was that even if I had to pay this guy out of pocket 300-400 dollars, I would have gone to him.  The difference was that he had a track record and was a trained clinician with lots of experience and a good reputation in my community.  And from telling me his experiences with all the patients he had seen, both the good and the bad outcomes of people getting off benzos, I could tell he wasn’t bullshitting me (and I have a pretty good bullshit radar).  It would be nice if we all had some such person who was local and could provide the service this man provided to me. 

Edited May 19 by [Ma...]

[[Ma...]]

I also think it’s possible this could be less of an issue ten years from now, because medical education is changing and they are teaching this stuff now from what I’ve heard through the grapevine.  Obviously that doesn’t help those of us in the thick of it right now, but it’s encouraging; I think providers will become more adept in the years to come.  

[[re...]]

I hope you are right Mattwahoo cause NO ONE should have to experience the C/T, rapid taper torture ever again. 

[[Re...]]

Edited May 20 by [Re...]

[[...]]

@[Re...], I spoke to dr horowitz. He suggested a daily liquid micro taper for me from the ativan that i take.

However, the liquid version isnt available here. Other members here have suggested tapering using my pills with a scale. 

I was planning on using the taper forum here to come up with a strategy.

Any further interaction with Dr Horowitz will need a fresh appointment. It isn't like he takes over continued care of a patient.

I will consider speaking to Angie Peacock. Thanks for the input Rebecca!!

[[Re...]]

Edited May 20 by [Re...]

[[...]]

@[Re...] does Angie offer taper plans? Does she maintain client records so she can help me in case im stuck somewhere in the taper?

[[je...]]

4 hours ago, [[R...] said:

@[...]I suggest an approach tailored to your individual medical history. While forums offer valuable insights, you can get conflicting advice and it can be confusing. That is why I am recommending a singular point person like Angie. The feedback is my pleasure. I wish you the best in this.

@[Re...] you are suggesting a member contacts Angie for tapering advice. To the best of my knowledge Angie is not a medical professional, she is not licensed and to charge money for tapering advice would be problematic.

17 hours ago, [[R...] said:

In my opinion, she is the most clinically informed coach focused on data from patients.

Can you please clarify what information do you base this opinion on? 

[[Re...]]

1 hour ago, [[j...] said:

@[Re...] you are suggesting a member contacts Angie for tapering advice. To the best of my knowledge Angie is not a medical professional, she is not licensed and to charge money for tapering advice would be problematic.

Can you please clarify what information do you base this opinion on? 

Hi Jelly, I hope you're doing well. It's nice to reconnect with you after some time. I'm a bit puzzled by your response, as I don't see how my previous message implied what you're suggesting. I'm genuinely curious and want to understand if there was something in my message that upset you. Can you help me understand?

Getting support from a coach is not unusual. Angie Peacock is speaking at a medical conference this week alongside Dr. David Healy in Kentucky. The title of her presentation to other medical professionals (nurses, physicians, social workers, psychologists, and more) receiving continuing education credits to attend the conference is "Improving patient outcomes by listening to patient communities in emerging evidence base." To me this reflects being a clincally informed coach. Angie works alongside medical providers to serve a patient base consistently in partnership as a coach/consultant. Dr. Josef-Witt Doerring works with coaches in his medical practice like Nicole Lamberson and others.

 

 

Edited May 21 by [Re...]

[[je...]]

1 hour ago, [[R...] said:

Hi Jelly, I hope you're doing well. It's nice to reconnect with you after some time. I'm a bit puzzled by your response, as I don't see how my previous message implied what you're suggesting. I'm genuinely curious and want to understand if there was something in my message that upset you. Can you help me understand?

Getting support from a coach is not unusual. Angie Peacock is speaking at a medical conference this week alongside Dr. David Healy in Kentucky. The title of her presentation to other medical professionals (nurses, physicians, social workers, psychologists, and more) receiving continuing education credits to attend the conference is "Improving patient outcomes by listening to patient communities in emerging evidence base." To me this reflects being a clincally informed coach. Angie works alongside medical providers to serve a patient base consistently in partnership as a coach/consultant. Dr. Josef-Witt Doerring works with coaches in his medical practice like Nicole Lamberson and others.

 

It is not unusual for members to deflect from uncomfortable questions by insinuating that the person asking those questions are angry. I am not angry, I was merely pointing out a problematic issue with the suggestion you made. Then I asked you to clarify a statement you made using claims to add credibility and authority to those claims. If you are going to make such claims, it is very common for us to ask for clarification.

I am concerned that you would make these claims based on the basis of a single title of a presentation that you have not even listened to or read the contents of that presentation. Working alongside medical professionals does not mean they are treating patients and we should avoid creating that impression through the language we use. As you can see above @[...] was asking about maintaining clients records of tapering plans – something that would be required of a medical practitioner or a registered psychologist/psychiatrist - but not a coach.

I am not suggesting you had ill intentions, I am merely pointing out we have to be careful when making suggestions as it can be misleading to members even when not intended.

 

[[Re...]]

[[Re...]]

54 minutes ago, [[j...] said:

It is not unusual for members to deflect from uncomfortable questions by insinuating that the person asking those questions are angry. I am not angry, I was merely pointing out a problematic issue with the suggestion you made. Then I asked you to clarify a statement you made using claims to add credibility and authority to those claims. If you are going to make such claims, it is very common for us to ask for clarification.

I am concerned that you would make these claims based on the basis of a single title of a presentation that you have not even listened to or read the contents of that presentation. Working alongside medical professionals does not mean they are treating patients and we should avoid creating that impression through the language we use. As you can see above @[...] was asking about maintaining clients records of tapering plans – something that would be required of a medical practitioner or a registered psychologist/psychiatrist - but not a coach.

I am not suggesting you had ill intentions, I am merely pointing out we have to be careful when making suggestions as it can be misleading to members even when not intended.

If you have an issue with my comment as an Admin, please feel free to go ahead and delete it. That seems to be the solution since you have an issue with the way that I phrased it. I did not see the commenter's prior question until later when I replied. No disrespect, but I am not going to reply to the rest of the above as it is not my intention to have conflict on this site nor do I feel the need to defend my actions. I have worked consistently with Angie personally for 15 months now alongside my medical provider. My experience with her is informed by my work with her. I hope that you enjoy the rest of your evening.

Edited May 21 by [Re...]

[[Co...]]

17 hours ago, [[R...] said:

@[...] Angie is a popular coach and consultant. I would describe her as a patient advocate who provides education and information to people tapering off of psych drugs. She can consult with prescribers or other mental health professionals as it says on her website. She went through polydrugging and a severe withdrawal herself and came out the other end. You can check out her website and what she offers and see if it is a fit for you. I have done her groups and found it helpful to be in a moderated in-person small group where individuals share experiences, insights, and hope.

Hello @[Re...]

My comments here apply to all members. Yours is just a convenient foil for me to address these points.

@[je...]'s concerns and responses to this thread are wholly consistent with BenzoBuddies rules and policies. To be more specific, BB is a discussion space - we do not allow private 'coaching' via one-on-one Personal Messaging. In this regard, use of the PM system is analogous to a withdrawal- or taper-coach providing similar (paid) services.

The reason we do not allow this type of support via our PM system is because our members are unqualified to do so. Our rules and policies apply to all members, many of whom are just as 'qualified' (sometimes, more qualified) to do so than Angie Peacock. Indeed, I have some training in counselling, and I am not qualified to provide counselling (even if a choose to obfuscate the service by referring to it as 'coaching'). We even had a team member who was qualified to deliver counselling services - our rules applied to her too.

So, if we do not allow such counselling to occur at BB by unqualified members via PM, would it make sense for us to allow recommendations for such services (for a fee, no less) by offsite unqualified coaches?

Further, being a 'taper-coach' necessarily involves the discussion of tapers, withdrawal difficulties, doses, and possible medication substitution. All of these matters are properly determined between a prescribing doctor and the patient. BenzoBuddies allows for public discussion between peers at BB about dosing, etc. But this is not a counsellor-client or doctor-patient relationship. Rather, it is discussion between equals. Private withdrawal- or taper-coaching would fail the rules at BB; we will not allow promotion of analogous (paid-for) services here simply because they are conducted away from BenzoBuddies.

I understand that this is a somewhat developing situation. The targeting of our members and those like them by these services has exploded over the past year or two. Our rules might not spell out our concerns about external services which seek to provide support similar to that which is disallowed via the BB PM system. But it is a logical extension to disallow it. The fact that fees are charged (by unqualified practitioners) only makes the situation worse.

When fees are involved, this implies a professional service. The person providing the service had better be qualified, supervised, be a member of professional body, and hold appropriate insurance. But if they are unqualified, I struggle to see how any of those other things might legitimately follow.

When members attempt to provide (or request) support via the PM system, this does not allow for alternative perspectives or for others to post corrections where there are mistakes. The relationship also becomes more instructional and less discussional in nature. So, for the safety of members, we do not allow it. We have even less control over external, unqualified coaches, so the situation there is even worse. There are members of BB who are just as 'qualified' or more qualified than Angie Peacock (including licensed counsellors, doctors, and pharmacists; and a myriad of members with similar life-experience) to provide such 'coaching' privately. But we do not allow this.

Recommendations for unqualified 'coaches' needs to cease at BB.

[[Re...]]

2 hours ago, [[C...] said:

Hello @[Re...]

My comments here apply to all members. Yours is just a convenient foil for me to address these points.

@[je...]'s concerns and responses to this thread are wholly consistent with BenzoBuddies rules and policies. To be more specific, BB is a discussion  space - we do not allow private 'coaching' via one-on-one Personal Messaging. In this regard, use of the PM system is analogous to a withdrawal- or taper-coach providing these (paid) services.

The reason we do not allow this type of support via our PM system is because our members are unqualified to do so. Our rules and policies apply to all members, many of whom are just as 'qualified' (sometimes, more qualified) to do so than Angie Peacock. Indeed, I have some training in counselling, and I am not qualified to provide counselling (even if a choose to obfuscate the service by referring to it as 'coaching'). We even had a team member who was qualified to deliver counselling services - our rules applied to her too.

So, if we do not allow such counselling to occur at BB by unqualified members via PM, would it make sense for us to allow recommendations for such services (for a fee, no less) by offsite unqualified coaches?

Further, being a 'taper-coach' necessarily involves the discussion of tapers, withdrawal difficulties, doses, and possible medication substitution. All of these matters are properly determined between a prescribing doctor and the patient. BenzoBuddies allows for public discussion between peers at BB about dosing, etc. But this is not a counsellor-client or doctor-patient relationship. Rather, it is discussion between equals. Private withdrawal- or taper-coaching would fail the rules at BB; we will not allow promotion of such (paid-for) services here simply because they are conducted away from BenzoBuddies.

I understand that this is a somewhat developing situation. The targeting of our members and those like them by these services has exploded over the past year or two. Our rules might not spell out our concerns about external services which are analogous to proving similar privately via the BB PM system. But it is a logical extension. The fact that fees are charged (by unqualified practitioners) only makes the situation worse.

When fees are involved, this implies a professional service. The person providing the service had better be qualified, supervised, be a member of professional body, and hold appropriate insurance. But if they are unqualified, I struggle to see how any of those other things might legitimately follow.

When members attempt to provide (or request) support via the PM system, this does not allow for alternative perspectives or for others to post corrections where there are mistakes. The relationship also becomes more instructional and less discussional in nature. So, for the safety of members, we do not allow it. We have even less control over external, unqualified coaches, so the situation there is even worse. There are members of BB who are just as 'qualified' or more qualified than Angie Peacock (including licensed counsellors, doctors, and pharmacists; and a myriad of members with similar life-experience) to provide such 'coaching' privately. But we do not allow this.

Recommendations for unqualified 'coaches' needs to cease at BB.

@[Co...] Since these discussions are unfolding publicly, although they could have occurred privately through direct messaging from initial contact from your admin, I feel compelled to express my thoughts openly as well about how this could have been approached versus what happened here. I should also say for the sake of transparency that I did message you privately to tell you this conversation was happening and essentially invite you into it to say please take down my comment if I did not phrase the discussion in a way that is satisfactory for Benzo Buddies.

This professional and respectful tone of your explanation is quite different than the tone of the prior communications with me previously by your admin. I am not looking to win here or "get into it" with anyone, as I have said before on this thread. But I do need to express this as a member of this forum who has been polite and helpful to others I was surprised by the previous tone.

It seems there are some issues to be worked out in regards to how you move forward in approaching this topic overall that clearly have nothing to do with me. I understand the need to have a conversation about this that applies to all members but it also could have been done without singling anyone out.

Regardless, I regret that this conversation has dominated the thread for a new member. Something like this creates stress for those sharing and I hope your moderators will take that into account in the future.

Thank you, Colin for all that you do for the members of Benzo Buddies. I know running a site like this is not easy. All the best to everyone always.

[[re...]]

you are suggesting a member contacts Angie for tapering advice. To the best of my knowledge Angie is not a medical professional, she is not licensed and to charge money for tapering advice would be problematic.

 

 

The short of it .......................YES she is suggesting this and I think she should be allowed to. Angie is certainly better than the quack doctors  that keep torturing their patients (similar to war crimes, just unknowingly)  in regards to these medications.

I am just being honest here. So are you all saying that a DOCTOR is going to be MORE qualified to taper a poor soul off of these medicines than say someone like Angie P?  She is WAY more capable.  And you are doing more harm than good to send them to a doctor over her IMO. And then they are just gonna come back here in pain and suffering anyway. 

I guess doctors since they have a license get carte blanche to destroy people's lives by taking a patient off a 15 year SSRI use period in 1 month Yes this is happening right now with someone i am trying to help on the phone mentally and they are DESTROYED!!!!!!!!!!! A serious WTH!!!!!!!!!!!

I understand you have to protect yourselves from liabilities and legal action if advice on here given has a negative outcome on someone's health. It could come back and bite the owner of this forum. I completely get it. It is a slippery slope. 

I wish there was a way that this site could be protected legally from litigation and still offer referrals to someone like Angie Peacock. I think you should get a bit modernized at this point since the medical profession is not getting it still.  And hopefully allow these kinds of referrals yet with protection from legal action. I don't know if this is possible. The bottom line should be the health and protection of your members first and foremost and to suggest a doctor over Angie P especially for a newbie is only perpetuating more sickness in the world.

At a minimum maybe someone could figure out a new list of Benzo wise docs and it could be front and center maybe on the home page? So someone could at least find a professional medical provider that is benevolent in their taper process. 

I think Rebecca is right on here. Rules or no rules. It doesn't change the fact that she is morally and ethically correct.  

[[re...]]

And I do believe Angie P does provide a disclaimer on her site and her coaching services. So there is that

[Guest [Do...]]

On 18/05/2024 at 19:57, [[K...] said:

Can someone please explain theme here.
Is this bashing all coaches? Or Dr H in particular? 

Whilst we abide by being civil to one another in this community is it OK to trash coaches?
If people wish to engage with their services isn’t that their personal choice especially if all else fails so that the more difficult cases are heard? 

This might be as usefull as online reviews for a shop, a movie or any other service that will make you spend an ammount of money without not really knowing what to expect.

I have used one once a coach's service and despite i wont mention the name, it was one of the top ones, one of the most known and mentioned with its youtube channel and stuff but the experience was awefull and that person wasnt anything closer to the people that speks in the videos, i mean, it showed no interest and didnt tell me anything usefull, letting me do all the talking and just saying how much sorry it was for my suffering, i can certainly say that it was the boggest waste of money i have done lately. It would have been a waste of money even it the price was 5$.

And i would have appreciated i had feedback from other members before i wasted my money in that out of pure desperation, cause that is what they are using to take advantage of us.

Edited May 21 by Guest

[[re...]]

Hey Dolvian man I hope you are doing good today. 

Shoutout!!!!!!