Tapering from 0.50mg (now at 0.25mg)

[[ti...]]

Last night was second night of .13mg and second poor sleep (probably 1.5-3.5 hours of sleep) in a row at that dose. At this point it is not surprising I am getting close to doses low enough to stop helping with sleep in addition to having insomnia as a 'withdrawal' effect. Not really much of an increase in other symptoms (though as mentioned previously they are still present). Since .16mg have been following same pattern of dropping every 3 days. At this point plan is to still drop to .12 after third dose of .13. I am not sure it makes sense to speed up reduction especially as I get to lower doses because each % drop gets greater at my rate of .01mg - would you generally advise to continue at .01mg every 3 days, @[je...]? Also I decided to start work again this upcoming Monday, as I and those in my circle think it will improve my mental health and serve as a distraction, so continuing this pace probably advisable. I am answering my own question but always like hearing from you lol.

Edited March 26 by [ti...]

[[je...]]

Hi there. I’m away for a couple of days and I’ll respond properly when I have the time. 

[[Wa...]]

On 25/03/2024 at 17:55, [[t...] said:

Good to hear. Trying to find some silver lining in this. Dropped to .13mg last night and continuing at .13mg next 2 days, hopefully can go down to .12mg after that. 

Cool, I’ve been off the forums the last week or so, so just seeing this now. I had a small hiccup but I’m currently at .09 with plans to go to .07 in a few days, symptoms have picked up a bit but mostly has to do with muscle tension type of things. Hope you can keep up your current pace

[[je...]]

On 27/03/2024 at 01:28, [[t...] said:

Last night was second night of .13mg and second poor sleep (probably 1.5-3.5 hours of sleep) in a row at that dose. At this point it is not surprising I am getting close to doses low enough to stop helping with sleep in addition to having insomnia as a 'withdrawal' effect. Not really much of an increase in other symptoms (though as mentioned previously they are still present). Since .16mg have been following same pattern of dropping every 3 days. At this point plan is to still drop to .12 after third dose of .13. I am not sure it makes sense to speed up reduction especially as I get to lower doses because each % drop gets greater at my rate of .01mg - would you generally advise to continue at .01mg every 3 days, @[je...]? Also I decided to start work again this upcoming Monday, as I and those in my circle think it will improve my mental health and serve as a distraction, so continuing this pace probably advisable. I am answering my own question but always like hearing from you lol.

I think your current approach is working and I would stick to it. I do understand your % gets higher. When I got to 0.125mg I switched to linear tapering which meant my percentages also increased. Everyone has to switch to linear at some point otherwise you'll never get off. If you feel symptoms are getting worse, you can hold for a while or then increase the time between reductions. This is what I did at the end of my taper, just so you can see I also went linear with increased percentages. (I'm not suggesting you follow my end-taper path as your history is completely different because you were on a very short time while I was on a high dose for a couple of years). 

I think it will be good if you're working again and it will help with distraction. 

[[ti...]]

Thanks for the responses @[Wa...] and @[je...] rly appreciate it.

Edited April 2 by [ti...]

[[...]]

I'm now on .75 mg klonopin per day, up slightly from .5.  The symptoms aren't better yet.  Perhaps in a week they will start to improve.  I am powerless over this drug and my life has become unmanageable.   I appreciate having this community. You know what I'm going through and it's great to see people getting off of this drug. It's pretty bad now but going for the gold. After the storm, the rainbow 🌈  and we don't ever have to do this again. Love ❤️ 

[[ti...]]

@[je...] Wanted to provide a bit of an update. Been holding at .12mg for a little over a week now as earlier this week GI symptoms got a lot worse. I've had annoying sensitivity to foods, etc. and some constipation issues throughout, but have been able to manage with healthy eating, lots of fiber, miralax (dosing usually .5-1x) and psyllium, and things coming out (ahem lol) looked normal. Sort of out of nowhere (only two changes I can pinpoint are I got a virus last week, and have been tapering K), the constipation started to get really bad and things coming out started looking not like healthy (you know...). It got so bad that tried dulcolax, enemas, stronger laxatives, which barely worked but eventually cleared enough out to reduce the constipation. Past 2 days I have been taking 1 dose miralax, then stool softener in morning and evening, as well as (and never wanted to resort to this) a dose of Sennakot in evenings - this has stopped the constipation but now just having to go numerous times in morning and smaller amounts / diarrhea ensuing.

There could be some relation here to also being on Lexapro, which initially also had caused constipation but have been able to manage the combo as previously mentioned. It is crazy to me how south things there went just in a matter of days. I'd like to be able to move forward with taper without relying on Senna as I also think it is causing irritation and obviously diarrhea (never had this problem with miralax), but if required may continue to use it just to get off K. Very annoying and not 100% certain what to do next, I have been waiting for things to start returning to more normal but it has been almost a week and that has not happened yet. Other symptoms generally tolerable and sleep past few days oddly good at like 7 hours and 6 hours per night respectively. So odd how these symptoms jump around and affect different parts of our body so much.

Any input or prior personal experience or advising people through this sort of issue definitely let me know. It is hard to say whether this is a form of the cuts I was making starting to catch up, or more just yet another symptom shift which seems to be common for me during tapering (e.g., visual disturbances completely gone, head sensations way down right now, but when I had those GI was in much better shape...). In other words, I don't know how much holding is really going to help at this point, and may want to try reducing from .12 down to .11 then holding that for 4-5 days to see what happens.

[[je...]]

[[je...]]

5 hours ago, [[t...] said:

@[je...] Wanted to provide a bit of an update. Been holding at .12mg for a little over a week now as earlier this week GI symptoms got a lot worse. I've had annoying sensitivity to foods, etc. and some constipation issues throughout, but have been able to manage with healthy eating, lots of fiber, miralax (dosing usually .5-1x) and psyllium, and things coming out (ahem lol) looked normal. Sort of out of nowhere (only two changes I can pinpoint are I got a virus last week, and have been tapering K), the constipation started to get really bad and things coming out started looking not like healthy (you know...). It got so bad that tried dulcolax, enemas, stronger laxatives, which barely worked but eventually cleared enough out to reduce the constipation. Past 2 days I have been taking 1 dose miralax, then stool softener in morning and evening, as well as (and never wanted to resort to this) a dose of Sennakot in evenings - this has stopped the constipation but now just having to go numerous times in morning and smaller amounts / diarrhea ensuing.

There could be some relation here to also being on Lexapro, which initially also had caused constipation but have been able to manage the combo as previously mentioned. It is crazy to me how south things there went just in a matter of days. I'd like to be able to move forward with taper without relying on Senna as I also think it is causing irritation and obviously diarrhea (never had this problem with miralax), but if required may continue to use it just to get off K. Very annoying and not 100% certain what to do next, I have been waiting for things to start returning to more normal but it has been almost a week and that has not happened yet. Other symptoms generally tolerable and sleep past few days oddly good at like 7 hours and 6 hours per night respectively. So odd how these symptoms jump around and affect different parts of our body so much.

Any input or prior personal experience or advising people through this sort of issue definitely let me know. It is hard to say whether this is a form of the cuts I was making starting to catch up, or more just yet another symptom shift which seems to be common for me during tapering (e.g., visual disturbances completely gone, head sensations way down right now, but when I had those GI was in much better shape...). In other words, I don't know how much holding is really going to help at this point, and may want to try reducing from .12 down to .11 then holding that for 4-5 days to see what happens.

I’m probably not the best person to ask about GI issues because I’m biased. I had GI issues after I jumped which I thought was withdrawal symptoms and suffered through it for months only to be diagnosed with something else that completely fixed it. I’m not saying that is the case for other people, I just understand it is sometimes difficult to determine what is causing these symptoms. You can read about it here.

FWIW I never had GI issues during tapering as a symptom indicative of making too big cuts. I could also eat anything I wanted. For me it wasn’t a symptom but I know for some people it is. 

[[ti...]]

@[je...] thanks for the perspective. Also @[Wa...] hope your taper is going well enough. As an update I ended up staying at .12mg for 12 days, during which the GI slowly improved. Now at third day at .11mg and going to the bathroom like clockwork… this is hands down the strangest least predictable experience of my life, I am sure some component is CNS destabilization from going off Zoloft and also currently being on another SSRI (Lexapro) playing a role. That said on last day at .12 and first at .11 had really bad depression, getting a bit better but it’s been pretty down and dark feeling, some other side effects as there is almost always some sort of withdrawal effect present (head pressure, muscle burning, continued high food sensitivity, chest pain, some others - not debilitating from basic functioning standpoint but they still suck). A bit of anxiety but depression is the worse one now. Something that has continued to be true throughout this whole experience is ‘windows’ that occur for a few hours where I feel almost completely normal, and also a fair number of times where I have significantly less depression/anxiety and feel more optimistic and hopeful (weekends tend to be better, and generally later in the day but not always).

A few questions for you: was/is depression (I think in addition to depression I have been getting a bit of dp/dr though I don’t fully understand whether I am or not) a symptom for you and how did you cope, especially as you pushed through taper? A big part of the problem for me (and I do have a therapist but still…) is I am often reminded of how easy/pleasant my life used to be before this mess started 4 months ago, and now I fear it could take years to get back to that state again, and even then not be 100%. 

At this point I am thinking hold at .11mg at least two more days (so at for 5 days total) because even though I did a longer hold at 12 days (which given my pace I’d assume would be long enough to see some sort of major cumulative effect of prior quick cuts catch up…) I still want to monitor if anything gets worse for a bit longer. But then again maybe I’m drawing this out too long, taper not really following the most predictable pattern. 

*as an update hit with some more intense symptoms than I am used to last night, in addition to horrid sleep, so going to hold longer at .11 than anticipated. Noted they are occurring at the 3/4 day mark border. 

 

Edited April 13 by [ti...]

[[Wa...]]

On 12/04/2024 at 15:31, [[t...] said:

@[je...] thanks for the perspective. Also @[Wa...] hope your taper is going well enough. As an update I ended up staying at .12mg for 12 days, during which the GI slowly improved. Now at third day at .11mg and going to the bathroom like clockwork… this is hands down the strangest least predictable experience of my life, I am sure some component is CNS destabilization from going off Zoloft and also currently being on another SSRI (Lexapro) playing a role. That said on last day at .12 and first at .11 had really bad depression, getting a bit better but it’s been pretty down and dark feeling, some other side effects as there is almost always some sort of withdrawal effect present (head pressure, muscle burning, continued high food sensitivity, chest pain, some others - not debilitating from basic functioning standpoint but they still suck). A bit of anxiety but depression is the worse one now. Something that has continued to be true throughout this whole experience is ‘windows’ that occur for a few hours where I feel almost completely normal, and also a fair number of times where I have significantly less depression/anxiety and feel more optimistic and hopeful (weekends tend to be better, and generally later in the day but not always).

A few questions for you: was/is depression (I think in addition to depression I have been getting a bit of dp/dr though I don’t fully understand whether I am or not) a symptom for you and how did you cope, especially as you pushed through taper? A big part of the problem for me (and I do have a therapist but still…) is I am often reminded of how easy/pleasant my life used to be before this mess started 4 months ago, and now I fear it could take years to get back to that state again, and even then not be 100%. 

At this point I am thinking hold at .11mg at least two more days (so at for 5 days total) because even though I did a longer hold at 12 days (which given my pace I’d assume would be long enough to see some sort of major cumulative effect of prior quick cuts catch up…) I still want to monitor if anything gets worse for a bit longer. But then again maybe I’m drawing this out too long, taper not really following the most predictable pattern. 

*as an update hit with some more intense symptoms than I am used to last night, in addition to horrid sleep, so going to hold longer at .11 than anticipated. Noted they are occurring at the 3/4 day mark border. 

Hey tip my taper is going okay, hopefully will be moving from .07 to .05 in a few days.

I hear you about the depression. I ruminated the hell out of my situation the first few months. To me the light at the end of the tunnel was just getting lower. The body is amazing at healing itself. I’ve had multiple concussions and a pretty bad case of pneumonia and fully recovered.

I think holding a few extra days at the lower end is fine. At this point I wouldn’t worry about dragging it out a few days or w/e you need if it gives you a bit more stability

[[ti...]]

Thanks @[Wa...]. Started feeling better last few days so now dropping to .10mg. Hope you can move to .05 soon! 

[[je...]]

I'm glad you're feeling a bit better. Navigating a taper is tough especially if you have been destabilised by another psych drug previously. I think you're doing well and if you feel it's better to hold given your symptoms, then follow your gut. You are at a fairly low dose now and made significant progress, it shouldn't take forever to get off this last bit.

[[Wa...]]

9 hours ago, [[t...] said:

Thanks @[Wa...]. Started feeling better last few days so now dropping to .10mg. Hope you can move to .05 soon! 

Good to hear

And thanks! I’m going for it today, we will both be off of this poison soon

[[ti...]]

@[Wa...] and @[je...] starting at .08mg tonight. Constipation and chest/GI burning probably most annoying symptoms at the moment, but I think manageable enough. Morning body pain also pretty annoying but sleep somehow has remained at 5-6.5 hours per night last few weeks. This is a grind but determined to get through! Started a project this week at work and it’s been an amazing distraction, far better than sitting around and ruminating. Hope it’s going well enough at .05mg @[Wa...]. 

[[je...]]

Sounds like it's going really well, all things considering. Nice job!

[[Wa...]]

21 hours ago, [[t...] said:

@[Wa...] and @[je...] starting at .08mg tonight. Constipation and chest/GI burning probably most annoying symptoms at the moment, but I think manageable enough. Morning body pain also pretty annoying but sleep somehow has remained at 5-6.5 hours per night last few weeks. This is a grind but determined to get through! Started a project this week at work and it’s been an amazing distraction, far better than sitting around and ruminating. Hope it’s going well enough at .05mg @[Wa...]. 

Nice to hear you’re powering through it tip. Distractions are great, definitely helps keep your mind in a good place.

It is going okay. I’m on day 9, will hold for another day or two then cut to .03. I will jump from there. GL at .08

[[ti...]]

@[je...] At .08mg still but feel stable enough so likely dropping to .07mg tomorrow. Question for you. At this point I’ve been functional and not had severe symptoms (with the exception maybe of the level of constipation a month ago). By the time I am off K, I hopefully will have been on it less than 6 months (around 5 of which spent at .25mg or less). Is it particularly common / is there a significant probability of getting significantly more severe waves after jumping? I know there are never any guarantees with psychotropic drug withdrawal but would be curious to know based on your experience advising on this site. Additionally, I think I will taper down to .03mg or possibly to .01 - do you think it would be worth spending ~2 weeks (or hopefully less) of additional tapering to get down to .01 or just jumping earlier to avoid prolonging dependence?  

[[je...]]

From what we see around here it’s generally the case that your symptoms post jump mirror your symptoms during the last couple of months tapering. That’s why we recommend trying to be stable for a relative period prior to jumping. It was the same with me. For the first six weeks or so my symptoms remained mostly the same. Unfortunately I developed a gluten intolerance at the same time when I jumped which had similar symptoms to withdrawal. So my symptoms increased but it wasn’t due to jumping. When I got the gluten under control my symptoms settled down.

Generally it seems if your taper is under control your symptoms will be after you jump. You might get a wave or two but it should be short lived. These are the tendencies not promises. 

I personally don’t think it’s necessary to drag your taper out to 0.01. But it’s a personal choice. If you don’t feel ready to jump at 0.03 then you can continue to taper. I don’t think in the long run it will hurt either.

[[ti...]]

Thanks @[je...] - just took first dose 0.06mg after 6 days at .07mg. I am guessing generally speaking .05mg k jump is not recommended? Especially as I have been symptomatic throughout taper. @[Wa...] hope it’s going well  

[[je...]]

Some people jump at 0.05mg. If you want to jump higher maybe make one more cut after 0.05mg and see how you feel after that cut? It’s difficult to predict or generalise because your taper has not been a conventional one. And you’ve done well the way you’ve tapered. 

[[Wa...]]

On 06/05/2024 at 23:02, [[t...] said:

Thanks @[je...] - just took first dose 0.06mg after 6 days at .07mg. I am guessing generally speaking .05mg k jump is not recommended? Especially as I have been symptomatic throughout taper. @[Wa...] hope it’s going well  

Nice to hear you’re at .06 now tip, hang in there you will be off soon. I’m doing okay, I’m at .03 now, will jump off in a few days. See you on the other side

[[ti...]]

Thanks both. @[je...] is it normal to still feel a dose of .06mg ‘hit?’ Definitely feels weaker than when I was at .25mg but still feel it affecting my brain/body within 5-10 minutes of taking it and hours after. Almost like my brain has gotten more sensitive (e.g. when I was taking .50mg, the sensation after taking it was definitely not even close to ~10x as powerful as when at .06…).

In addition, based on how my taper has been (symptomatic throughout), I think it would be unwise to jump at .05 so will go lower. Is it accurate to say that the actual concentration of K in my system when taking .05mg for long enough is 5x the dosage taken so .25mg? So within 2 hours of taking .05 (or whenever it hits peak concentration) it’s like I just took .25 (with no amount previously in the system)?

[[je...]]

5 hours ago, [[t...] said:

Thanks both. @[je...] is it normal to still feel a dose of .06mg ‘hit?’ Definitely feels weaker than when I was at .25mg but still feel it affecting my brain/body within 5-10 minutes of taking it and hours after.

I'm not familiar with how quickly the effects of these drugs set in, so I can't comment that. At 0.06mg you're at the Valium equivalent of about 1mg. Ashton said around 0.5mg-1mg Valium you are barely having therapeutic effect from the drug. When I was at 0.05mg I felt my pre-existing condition ramping up. I do feel I was starting to lose therapeutic effect of the drug treating my condition at this dose. So yes, I believe at these low doses we can still feel some effect from it because when I was slightly higher, my condition felt more manageable. It differs for each individual.

5 hours ago, [[t...] said:

Is it accurate to say that the actual concentration of K in my system when taking .05mg for long enough is 5x the dosage taken so .25mg? So within 2 hours of taking .05 (or whenever it hits peak concentration) it’s like I just took .25 (with no amount previously in the system)?

I don't understand your question and I don't know how to work out half-lives, so sorry I can't answer this.

[[Ma...]]

It’s highly unlikely .06 is doing anything therapeutically in your body.  Yes, we are all different, but you are basically at the dose many people jump from.  If you feel you want to taper all the way to .01 because that’s what you’re comfortable with then that’s fine.  But I wouldn’t draw it out for a long period of time if that’s what you do.  You will experience some level of WD (impossible to predict) and heal completely only once you are completely off.  Best of luck.