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To Change my Taper, or not to change my taper? That is the question ;)


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I guess I have hits some bumps in the road since passing the 5 month, dry-taper.  I actually hit 3 along the way and did a rescue dose which luckily someone stepped up to the plate to point out why, in the Ashton Manual, they say not to do that.  But this is a bit different, could say worse, since we are under a state of emergency now because of Wildfires, but I'm pretty safe 18 miles away from them.

Longer story, shorter, I felt I couldn't handle the anxiety, and pretty bad tremors.  I stopped going to the gym since it was closed, we had not electricity but that came back on, so no more excuse, but still not doing any of my workouts, not even walks.

My dilemma "was", do I updose, change my .117 dose.  Now I think I've had a window and it's dawning on me that I may be coming through this, so now, I don't want to change my dosage, or type of taper.  It reminds me of that saying, don't quit before the miracle.  I have also had what I call minor migraine (no full-blown) and plain, cheapot depot work fine, and been real careful not more than every 4 hours as needed, sometimes just icebags.  Still eating good, nothing seems to spoil my appetite ;)

Enough water, and last night with no extra help like exercise, I slept very good, and 7-8 hours.  I did wake up on occasion but went back to sleep easily.

I can see how people must get afraid when the wd sxs hit, I wanted to do something, anything to prevent them, then, a window.  But I'll think better the next time a wave hits, I hope :)

I did want to ask one question if someone could chime in.  If anyone is sort of understanding what I'm talking about, I'm not at all sure if I should change my dose when this happens, and I do a .003 cut normally every 14 days or so. So like 6% a month.  I'm 32% through my 1mg C right now, had to hold longer at the .117, almost a month.

I probably have answered my own question, but I do believe the holding method "is" working for me, but I haven't found out from anyone else why they couldn't taper and hold??  Anyway, if anyone feels they would like to just talk to me about what I've said, be glad to hear from you.  I can't forget to mention I am an older, senior, elderly, whatever and have some other issues so sometimes it's hard to know how much is the benzo, brain-injury, or my junk-food diet(I was on much of my life), or whatever.  I do keep in close touch with my MD and Cardio, even though only video conferencing.  Thanks, sorry about the book I wrote here, Denise ❤️

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If you keep cutting the same amount (0.003) then you're do a linear taper which means you're not really reducing by 6% per every month. A linear taper means you'll start out with a smaller percentage but as you go along, the percentage will get higher. The way we calculate cuts is to take each new daily dose and then deduct the percentage from that dose. It will look like this:

0.117 - 6%=0.109

0.109-6% =0.103

0.103-6%=0.097

At first it might seem like it remains constant but as you get lower, look at the numbers (and see you'll be reducing with less):

0.040-6%=0.037

0.037-6%=0.035

To answer your question. When going through stressful times, it's better to hold than to updose. From what I've noticed it seems as if updosing mainly works when you've tapered too fast. To do a slight increase in your dose will take a while for your body to register. By the time you feel the updose the stressful event will likely have passed already and you wouldn't need it anyway. When we're off the drugs, stressful life events will also happen. We need to learn how to navigate these situations without reaching for the pills. It can be tough, but if you've done it, you feel so good. And you've already proven to yourself that you can do it. 

 

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The eventual goal of every taper should be to work their way down to zero. One should do it at their own pace and comfort and listening to their body and symptoms. I used the tapering plan as a guide, and then I followed what my body told me. 

The most important thing for me was to be able to get a good night of sleep. This allowed me to be properly energized to take on the day. Some days I cut more, some days I held, some days I cut less. 

Keep marching onwards. Don't lose hope. Keep cutting away. 

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On 31/08/2023 at 14:34, [[j...] said:

If you keep cutting the same amount (0.003) then you're do a linear taper which means you're not really reducing by 6% per every month. A linear taper means you'll start out with a smaller percentage but as you go along, the percentage will get higher. The way we calculate cuts is to take each new daily dose and then deduct the percentage from that dose. It will look like this:

0.117 - 6%=0.109

0.109-6% =0.103

0.103-6%=0.097

At first it might seem like it remains constant but as you get lower, look at the numbers (and see you'll be reducing with less):

0.040-6%=0.037

0.037-6%=0.035

To answer your question. When going through stressful times, it's better to hold than to updose. From what I've noticed it seems as if updosing mainly works when you've tapered too fast. To do a slight increase in your dose will take a while for your body to register. By the time you feel the updose the stressful event will likely have passed already and you wouldn't need it anyway. When we're off the drugs, stressful life events will also happen. We need to learn how to navigate these situations without reaching for the pills. It can be tough, but if you've done it, you feel so good. And you've already proven to yourself that you can do it. 

I must have messed up my notifications, I never knew I had answers/replies here, so sorry.

Ok @[je...] and @[da...],  thanks for the example of numbers, I've got to straighten myself out on what I've been cutting, it's not what I thought, which was 6% per months.  I've been cutting, and won't rescue dose, or updose, but reducing less seems very smart for me to do.  I have gotten so much input, too much really, although I know people mean well, but my brain just isn't computing, and calculators seem to fail me as well.  Now my little scale is acting crazy and I put lithium batteries in it so they can't be "dead" already.  The numbers just fluctuate more.  This morning was ok, and I've been at .115 for 2 days now.

So it looks like in your example Jelly Baby, I would be taking out 6% per month (hold for a month) instead of 3% every 2 weeks or so, depending on how I feel?

I'll study it, and learn on the calculator how that works, how you got it. I thought I was getting better with numbers but I'm not, yet.  I was so good at Math it's hard to realize I can't hard add or subtract ;)

Thanks, I will re-read your reply.  I am thinking of switching to a micro-daily-taper.  I've heard some feedback on "holding" not working well for some, but then I would only taper the 0.001 each time, I believe that's right which I think is .1%, crazy low. Denise:idiot:

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I think I have your formula, but started with my present amount of 0.115 @[je...] Do I have this right, and maybe if I decide to stick with the 6% per month, I could plug it into a spreadsheet, or, just lower the percentage:

0.115 - 6% = 0.108

0.108 - 6% = 0.102

0.102 - 6% = 0.096

if the 4th number on my online calculator is 5 or above I rounded up. Look good so far for this method? Denise:smitten:

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On 01/09/2023 at 08:32, [[d...] said:

The eventual goal of every taper should be to work their way down to zero. One should do it at their own pace and comfort and listening to their body and symptoms. I used the tapering plan as a guide, and then I followed what my body told me. 

The most important thing for me was to be able to get a good night of sleep. This allowed me to be properly energized to take on the day. Some days I cut more, some days I held, some days I cut less. 

Keep marching onwards. Don't lose hope. Keep cutting away. 

I can't agree more from what I've seen happen with too fast, or cold-turkey.  I'm 70 now and too young to stop enjoying life ;)  Did you use a spreadsheet by chance because even those confused me at first, I need a super simple one ;) Denise

 

I just started making a spreadsheet of my own, we'll see how I do ;)

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8 hours ago, [[o...] said:

So it looks like in your example Jelly Baby, I would be taking out 6% per month (hold for a month) instead of 3% every 2 weeks or so, depending on how I feel?

You can do either 3% every two weeks or 6% per month, it's the same with percentages. The problem I'm trying to explain, is if you just keep cutting 0.003mg every time (fixed cuts), you will not be reducing by 6% per month as you keep going. Look at my example again:

image.png.0a67ce981af41615aaba2bb137d7e896.png

In the first batch of numbers: both times you cut it's a 0.006mg reduction (which will give you 0.003mg every two weeks).

In the second batch of numbers you are reducing by 0.002mg (this will require you to cut 0.001mg every two weeks).

For arguments sake, if you keep reducing by 0.006mg per month (like you are currently doing), when you get to 0.040mg at the second batch of numbers you will be reducing by 15%. This is how you calculate it: 0.006/0.04=0.15 multiplied by 100 = 15%.

That is what I'm trying to explain with linear reductions. If you keep cutting by a fixed amount your percentage will increase. Just because it's 6% now, does not mean it will be 6% later on. I hope this is making sense. It can be very difficult to wrap your head around the concepts and the maths. Especially with benzo brain. I have to double and tripple check my own equations and sometimes it takes me an hour to think - how does this thing work again? That's why we do things on the open forum. Because even if we understand something a million times, we are bound to make mistakes, and we need others to double check it. 

 

 

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I think this is better for me by far, is this the way they call Exponential?  Even if not, I will study the numbers, and am trying to find a spreadsheet example that would work for my dry-cut.  For some reason, I can't find a one of those I saw early on. 

So I was calculating the way you were trying to teach me right?  I mean with my first 3 examples of my cuts?  If I'm doing that right I should be ok to set up a new plan, hoping I'm not missing something still;) Thanks so much for working with me.  I do understand I'll be slowing down my taper, that sounds very good. Denise:hug:

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8 hours ago, [[o...] said:

I think I have your formula, but started with my present amount of 0.115 @[je...] Do I have this right, and maybe if I decide to stick with the 6% per month, I could plug it into a spreadsheet, or, just lower the percentage:

0.115 - 6% = 0.108

0.108 - 6% = 0.102

0.102 - 6% = 0.096

if the 4th number on my online calculator is 5 or above I rounded up. Look good so far for this method? Denise:smitten:

Yes, your numbers are right. I usually just ignore the 4th number. And the way percentages work is you need to lower the mg/g you cut as you get lower. (You said you'll be slowing down your taper - you're not slowing down your taper, you are still tapering at 6% you're just cutting less of the amount you have been cutting - not tapering at a lower percentage, unless the percentage is proving to be too high for you).

8 minutes ago, [[o...] said:

I think this is better for me by far, is this the way they call Exponential? 

No this is not an exponential taper, but this is the next best thing. I would not worry about an exponential taper if I were you because the way I understand it is, we don't have the information available for Clonazepam to be able to do an exponential taper (please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong anyone). 

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1 minute ago, [[j...] said:

Yes, your numbers are right. I usually just ignore the 4th number. And the way percentages work is you need to lower the mg/g you cut as you get lower. (You said you'll be slowing down your taper - you're not slowing down your taper, you are still tapering at 6% you're just cutting less of the amount you have been cutting - not tapering at a lower percentage, unless the percentage is proving to be too high for you).

No this is not an exponential taper, but this is the next best thing. I would not worry about an exponential taper if I were you because the way I understand it is, we don't have the information available for Clonazepam to be able to do an exponential taper (please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong anyone). 

Ok, yes, I'll have to wrap my brain around how this works JB, as it's doesn't make sense to me right now, I'll be honest, but I'll study it.  I think starting out with a spreadsheet (plan) will be good so I can see how the numbers work so I will know my totals as I go.  It is horrible not to get something, fully, feel like a dummy but I know I am not, just numbers have been a real trial by fire in this taper.

I'll be going back over my little notebook to see how to make the rest of my taper so that I can be confident when sharing my taper with others.  Right now I just feel bad how many posts I did trying to help others, when I was truly off track.  It's that hardest "class" I've ever taken, hope to raise my grade for sure ;) Denise PS do you know where I can find a spreadsheet, if not I guess I'll just keep trying to figure out my own, which I just may do ok eventually :)

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I don't believe in spreadsheets, so I don't know where to find them. I just calculated 2-3 reductions ahead. Then I focussed on my symptoms and whether I could make those reductions. The way you've done your reductions are spot on. If you want people to double check the numbers, you can keep posting your next reductions here as they come up and ask if they're right.

If you can tell me what isn't making sense, I can try and explain it to you in a different way. If it's about exponential tapering though, I don't know much about it. I can't explain that to you. 

 

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7 minutes ago, [[j...] said:

I don't believe in spreadsheets, so I don't know where to find them. I just calculated 2-3 reductions ahead. Then I focussed on my symptoms and whether I could make those reductions. The way you've done your reductions are spot on. If you want people to double check the numbers, you can keep posting your next reductions here as they come up and ask if they're right.

If you can tell me what isn't making sense, I can try and explain it to you in a different way. If it's about exponential tapering though, I don't know much about it. I can't explain that to you. 

Right now I am taking my "About Me" signature numbers and doing the math you showed me like, starting from my first real taper here at BB:

.130 - 6% = .122

.122 - 6% = .114

.114 - 6% = .107

So now, that last number, for example becomes my new dose for next time, but I could take 1/2 that each 14 days.  I think I have it figured now. Let me know if I'm still off.  I think spreadsheets stink so glad you don't use one, and I won't either.  I'll just keep my little notes as I have except clean up the errors ;) thanks to you.  I hope so much I get it now?? :clap:Denise

PS That's only the first dose that right, the .130 and I'm going to clean up all my "taper history" ;)

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another thought intruded, but maybe a good thing.  I can't change my numbers on old history, I just need to see how much percentage I was actually tapering, then I can start doing it right from now on?  Am I making sense?  I'm so sorry to put you through all this, but you'll never know how grateful I am for your "excellent" way of teaching me :smitten:Denise

 

This is what I was tapering about every 2 weeks, I think ;)

.130 - 2% = .127

.127 - 2% = .124

.124 - 2% = .121

so maybe I wasn't too far off, but I was off, I get that, and the benefit to me now is knowing the actual percentage, and I can be more confident with sharing with others!  I was cutting just 4% approximate per month, and I know it wasn't always exact number of days as I didn't keep track, but I can add up the dates I held and have that to go on.

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This is what I came up with for my "old history".  If it's ok/right than I'll get rid of the old history.  I had to take it down to 2% to get as close to the numbers my scale showed, so I can either figure it with 3% each 2 weeks. 

What's got me going now is that last dose I've started I'm thinking has to weigh only .106.  Which today's dose for example weighed .115 so it "looks" like I'm taking much less of a dose tomorrow, @[je...] but, I think that's exactly what you were trying to get through my thick skull :idiot: I'll go back and read where you wrote about that:) no worries, again I so appreciate you helping me, Denise :smitten:

Date      Dose   %Taper   New Dose
5/22/23   .130 - 2% =      .127
6/06/23   .127 - 2% =      .121
6/25/23   .121 - 2% =      .118
6/28/23   .118 - 2% =      .115
7/08/23   .115 - 2% =      .112
7/19/23   .112 - 2% =      .109  
8/03/23   .109 - 2% =      .106
9/01/23   .106 - 2% =      .103

 

 

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oh s%#*&!  I am not doing this right, I'm still figuring linear aren't I, nevermind, I'm a mess, gonna go to bed.  Maybe tomorrow. Still want to thank you for trying, I can't understand what I read either, not just numbers :( Denise

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2 hours ago, [[j...] said:

No this is not an exponential taper, but this is the next best thing. I would not worry about an exponential taper if I were you because the way I understand it is, we don't have the information available for Clonazepam to be able to do an exponential taper (please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong anyone). 

I just need rectify this. This is in fact an exponential taper as @[Li...] kindly pointed out to me. I was thinking about a hyperbolic taper. Apologies @[or...], for causing any confusion.

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No apology necessary you've been really wonderful helping me it's not often somebody goes above and beyond and you really have after I get a good night's sleep I am sure I can read through your material and do a better job figuring out how my taper will go thanks again I hope you get a good night's rest as well Denise:hug:

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2 hours ago, [[o...] said:

Right now I am taking my "About Me" signature numbers and doing the math you showed me like, starting from my first real taper here at BB:

.130 - 6% = .122

.122 - 6% = .114

.114 - 6% = .107

So now, that last number, for example becomes my new dose for next time, but I could take 1/2 that each 14 days.  I think I have it figured now. Let me know if I'm still off.  I think spreadsheets stink so glad you don't use one, and I won't either.  I'll just keep my little notes as I have except clean up the errors ;) thanks to you.  I hope so much I get it now?? :clap:Denise

PS That's only the first dose that right, the .130 and I'm going to clean up all my "taper history" ;)

Yes, the last number is the weight of your new daily dose which you need to use to calculate your next reduction. I also think you've got it. :thumbsup:

"But I could take 1/2 that each 14 days"- yes you can. Or alternatively you just use the same principle to calculate 3% every TWO weeks:

0.130-3%=0.126g 

0.126-3%=0.122g (see this number is the same as your 6%)

0.122-3%=0.118g 

0.188-3%=0.114g (see this number is the same your 6%)

All I did was work out what the doses would be if you did it in two week intervals at 3%. But after 4 weeks, you get to the exact same dose as if you were doing 6% every month. I don't want to confuse you anymore, but I do want to give you the tools, to do the maths if you wish to do so.

 

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2 hours ago, [[o...] said:

This is what I came up with for my "old history".  If it's ok/right than I'll get rid of the old history.  I had to take it down to 2% to get as close to the numbers my scale showed, so I can either figure it with 3% each 2 weeks. 

What's got me going now is that last dose I've started I'm thinking has to weigh only .106.  Which today's dose for example weighed .115 so it "looks" like I'm taking much less of a dose tomorrow, @[je...] but, I think that's exactly what you were trying to get through my thick skull :idiot: I'll go back and read where you wrote about that:) no worries, again I so appreciate you helping me, Denise :smitten:

Date      Dose   %Taper   New Dose
5/22/23   .130 - 2% =      .127
6/06/23   .127 - 2% =      .121
6/25/23   .121 - 2% =      .118
6/28/23   .118 - 2% =      .115
7/08/23   .115 - 2% =      .112
7/19/23   .112 - 2% =      .109  
8/03/23   .109 - 2% =      .106
9/01/23   .106 - 2% =      .103

I'm not sure what you mean by the bold section and what an "old history" is? You have the last dose listed as 0.103 and that should be according to the scale - every time you put something in your signature, it should be based on the scale. So I'm not sure how it could jump to 0.115? Some of the percentages on the table above are incorrect.

I took the history from your about page and it looks like this:

 

5/22/23   .130
6/06/23   .128
6/25/23   .127
6/28/23   .124
7/08/23   .123
7/19/23   .120   
8/03/23   .117
9/01/23   .115 held almost a month

The numbers here are not the same as in the quote?

 

 

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I have a question about getting these amounts how are you doing this exactly? Do you put the pill on a scale of some sort? I have pills so I don’t know exactly how much I’m dosing every day. I try to eye it but this may not be right. Can you advise if you are tapering with a pill what you use to get that exact dosage amount every day? 

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10 hours ago, [[j...] said:

I'm not sure what you mean by the bold section and what an "old history" is? You have the last dose listed as 0.103 and that should be according to the scale - every time you put something in your signature, it should be based on the scale. So I'm not sure how it could jump to 0.115? Some of the percentages on the table above are incorrect.

I took the history from your about page and it looks like this:

5/22/23   .130
6/06/23   .128
6/25/23   .127
6/28/23   .124
7/08/23   .123
7/19/23   .120   
8/03/23   .117
9/01/23   .115 held almost a month

The numbers here are not the same as in the quote?

My history isn't correct @jelly baby, I haven't fixed it yet.  I only listed the .130 because that's where I started a real taper in BB.  By old history, I mean what I had starting in March, to now, but I was subtracting .003 each 2 weeks from dose weight, not using your equation :)  I'll work on it today and have a new post, if I have time or am up to doing it.  I had awful nightmares lastnight, I won't go into them, but they lasted until I woke up at 6:30.  I am headed for church with a friend, not really up to that as I haven't been for a very long time.  My ears are ringing, plus I just have a load of anxiety, but I'll be better later I am sure :)  Thank you again, and sorry if I confused you, I confuse me too :idiot:

My whole problem was I thought I had it, then I thought I had done it all wrong, just crazy:(  I get the 3% every 2 weeks though and as long as that's "not" linear, I should be on track.  I thought because I'm reducing the same percentage, I was doing linear :idiot: PS on my last cut I only cut .002 from .117 to get .115, but didn't do the .117 - 2% = which is .109, I see that now but I hadn't when I did yesterday's dose.  It's scarey to go down to .109 that looks like a big jump to me but maybe not.  I'll wait, not taking anything this a.m.

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1 hour ago, [[M...] said:

I have a question about getting these amounts how are you doing this exactly? Do you put the pill on a scale of some sort? I have pills so I don’t know exactly how much I’m dosing every day. I try to eye it but this may not be right. Can you advise if you are tapering with a pill what you use to get that exact dosage amount every day? 

I do know the answer to this one Michele :)  Yes, I use a scale, and it's a little jewelry scale.  It needs to weigh down to .001, and they have them on Amazon or other places as well.

First you get your average weight of pill you want to taper, mine is clonazepam, and you can get that average by taking 10 tablets, weighing them all together, and dividing by 10 to get your average.  So you take that average as your starting number.  Please don't pay attention to my history info as it's wrong.  @[je...] is trying hard to get me straightened out on how-to calculate my numbers/percentages :)  Then I'll leave it to more experienced folks to help you with planning a taper "type". There are several methods, all under Withdrawal Methods in our top menu of Site ;) Denise

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10 hours ago, [[j...] said:

I'm not sure what you mean by the bold section and what an "old history" is?

 

I meant in my About Me, the signature area below.  Some is in Bold, I should have added it in but didn't think to do that. Denise

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7 hours ago, [[o...] said:

My history isn't correct @jelly baby, I haven't fixed it yet.  I only listed the .130 because that's where I started a real taper in BB.  By old history, I mean what I had starting in March, to now, but I was subtracting .003 each 2 weeks from dose weight, not using your equation :)

You should only state what you actually did, not fixing it to make the equation work. If you subtracted 0.003mg every two weeks, then that's fine, then list that. That is what we want. 

7 hours ago, [[o...] said:

I had awful nightmares lastnight, I won't go into them, but they lasted until I woke up at 6:30.  I am headed for church with a friend, not really up to that as I haven't been for a very long time.  My ears are ringing, plus I just have a load of anxiety, but I'll be better later I am sure :)  Thank you again, and sorry if I confused you, I confuse me too :idiot:

I'm really sorry you had such a terrible night. You don't have to do this stuff today or even tomorrow if you're feeling bad. There's no rush.

7 hours ago, [[o...] said:

My whole problem was I thought I had it, then I thought I had done it all wrong, just crazy:(  I get the 3% every 2 weeks though and as long as that's "not" linear, I should be on track.  I thought because I'm reducing the same percentage, I was doing linear :idiot: 

This is the most important part. As long as you know how to proceed. If you're doing the same percentage from each new dose you're not doing linear.

7 hours ago, [[o...] said:

PS on my last cut I only cut .002 from .117 to get .115, but didn't do the .117 - 2% = which is .109, I see that now but I hadn't when I did yesterday's dose.  It's scarey to go down to .109 that looks like a big jump to me but maybe not.  I'll wait, not taking anything this a.m.

Going from 0.117 to 0.115 is a 1.7% reduction, so you're well within the 2% limit.

 

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20 minutes ago, [[j...] said:

You should only state what you actually did, not fixing it to make the equation work. If you subtracted 0.003mg every two weeks, then that's fine, then list that. That is what we want. 

I'm really sorry you had such a terrible night. You don't have to do this stuff today or even tomorrow if you're feeling bad. There's no rush.

This is the most important part. As long as you know how to proceed. If you're doing the same percentage from each new dose you're not doing linear.

Going from 0.117 to 0.115 is a 1.7% reduction, so you're well within the 2% limit.

Ok JB, I'll leave the "past" alone and stay with .115, hold that a few days, see how I feel.  My next cut will be 3%, if I do a 2 week hold, which I should be at .111.

.115 - 3% = .1115, but I won't round up so .111. 

Sound good?  It might be a little rough this time, especially with sleep.  I do want to make the 6% a month at least, as I have done very well, with lack of sxs doing the 2% each 2 weeks.  I did good this a.m. and had a nap, just an hour.  I should sleep ok tonight after running around a bit, and after dinner I'll do a walk ;) tire myself out ;)  Thanks again, so much.  I'll let you know on this thread how I'm doing.  You've really helped me a lot, I do feel much more secure in my taper now, Denise:smitten:

PS I just use this Standard Calculator on my Windows 10 PC btw 0.11155 so my answers look like that, for example, but like I said, I won't round up, I'll do like you did :)

 

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