Why are alcoholics prescribed benzos for detox?

[[Md...]]

I don’t get it. Why is it that alcoholics are prescribed benzos to curb withdrawal symptoms?

I mean, I understand that benzos and booze work on the same receptors, but it seems like a risky and almost counterintuitive approach to me.

For example, let’s say an alcoholic checks into detox, and is prescribed benzos to help with withdrawals. This alcoholic now not only realizes they like benzos more than alcohol, so they think to themselves, “Screw alcohol, these benzos are waaaaay better. I’ve just found my new drug of choice!” (Just a possible scenario, not saying alcoholics in general are going to do this). 

Secondly, aren’t alcoholics being put at dependency risk by taking benzos, even if it’s not for a very long time? You hear of stories of people becoming dependent on benzos even after a VERY short time. 

And finally, if benzos can be the cure for alcohol withdrawals, then why can’t alcohol be the cure for benzo withdrawals? 

In fact, I personally know people who were having benzo withdrawals and ended up drinking a beer or two to alleviate the symptoms, and it really helped them get off benzos this way. 

Furthermore, people dependent on opioids are given suboxone, people dependent on alcohol are given benzos, yet for people dependent on benzos there’s absolutely nothing clinically established to curb withdrawal symptoms? 

Obviously, there are certain supplements and other things some people have found to be helpful during their withdrawals, but the question remains….

Why can’t alcohol be the source of benzo withdrawal symptom alleviation, especially for those who don’t experience rebound anxiety?

And why isn’t there a clinically established antidote for benzo withdrawal in this day and age???

You mean to tell me that modern science hasn’t figured out a way to quickly upregulate gaba receptors, and counteract neurotoxicity?

Something seems off here. For every benzo withdrawal symptom, there should be a cure aside from just “time”. After all, these damn drugs were invented back in the fu$&ing 1950’s.

 

 

[[or...]]

Lack of evidence-based (in human studies)studies would be my guess.  I believe most practitioners want to "only" help their patients.  And then, getting the word out, maybe close-minded'ness, that's why I push on the topic of "educate yourself" so you can be more of a partner with your doctor in your recovery.

I grew up thinking doctors knew everything, I knew they knew more than me, but I didn't ever bother to delve into what medical studies might have been available, or other material, like the other side of the coin, another opinion.  I was lazy, but not to lazy to party-on, or whatever dreams I was chasing.

I do know my bottle/script has always said 2 things, don't stop abruptly and don't drink alcohol with my C, CTs can cause seizures, and not sure about what alcohol would do, but I was lucky I got into AA, cleaned up my act, then discovered a bit late I was taking a benzo, and what that was exactly.

[[Md...]]

2 minutes ago, [[o...] said:

Lack of evidence-based (in human studies)studies would be my guess.  I believe most practitioners want to "only" help their patients.  And then, getting the word out, maybe close-minded'ness, that's why I push on the topic of "educate yourself" so you can be more of a partner with your doctor in your recovery.

I grew up thinking doctors knew everything, I knew they knew more than me, but I didn't ever bother to delve into what medical studies might have been available, or other material, like the other side of the coin, another opinion.  I was lazy, but not to lazy to party-on, or whatever dreams I was chasing.

This is actually a good point.

Most doctors to this day aren’t even aware of the dangers or withdrawals benzos can inflict, and doctors have been prescribing them like they were candy since the 50’s. They probably also think that alcohol is much worse than benzos, so the last thing they’re going to do is offer alcohol as a possible solution.

Still, I’d like to know the science why some light alcohol (like a beer) couldn’t be a solution, but like you said, not enough human studies have been done, and the last thing a doctor is going to do is offer alcohol as a solution to anything, but they’ll be more than happy to hand out addictive pharmaceuticals that completely screw up the human brain. 

Good going western medicine! 👏 

[[or...]]

17 minutes ago, [[M...] said:

I don’t get it. Why is it that alcoholics are prescribed benzos to curb withdrawal symptoms?

I mean, I understand that benzos and booze work on the same receptors, but it seems like a risky and almost counterintuitive approach to me.

For example, let’s say an alcoholic checks into detox, and is prescribed benzos to help with withdrawals. This alcoholic now not only realizes they like benzos more than alcohol, so they think to themselves, “Screw alcohol, these benzos are waaaaay better. I’ve just found my new drug of choice!” (Just a possible scenario, not saying alcoholics in general are going to do this). 

Secondly, aren’t alcoholics being put at dependency risk by taking benzos, even if it’s not for a very long time? You hear of stories of people becoming dependent on benzos even after a VERY short time. 

And finally, if benzos can be the cure for alcohol withdrawals, then why can’t alcohol be the cure for benzo withdrawals? 

In fact, I personally know people who were having benzo withdrawals and ended up drinking a beer or two to alleviate the symptoms, and it really helped them get off benzos this way. 

Furthermore, people dependent on opioids are given suboxone, people dependent on alcohol are given benzos, yet for people dependent on benzos there’s absolutely nothing clinically established to curb withdrawal symptoms? 

Obviously, there are certain supplements and other things some people have found to be helpful during their withdrawals, but the question remains….

Why can’t alcohol be the source of benzo withdrawal symptom alleviation, especially for those who don’t experience rebound anxiety?

And why isn’t there a clinically established antidote for benzo withdrawal in this day and age???

You mean to tell me that modern science hasn’t figured out a way to quickly upregulate gaba receptors, and counteract neurotoxicity?

Something seems off here. For every benzo withdrawal symptom, there should be a cure aside from just “time”. After all, these damn drugs were invented back in the fu$&ing 1950’s.

This article may help you understand, it did me but I had to take a little at a time as my brain was way foggy in the beginning, still shorts out occasionally.  Maybe there is a way, I just know about it, but maybe one day there will be a way to "help" the healing.  I'll put in this link for you to examine and see what you come out with:

https://benzobuddies.org/topic/223403-what-is-happening-in-your-brain/#comment-2944995

For now, what I understand is that our benzos take over the bodies natural way of balancing out our GABA and Glutamate, so when we go off, hopefully taper slowly, as we do that, our natural healing which comes from our bodies are able to once again do their job in regulating our CNS, especially these receptors.  So us getting in there with our big ideas to "fix it" really can inhibit our healing.  I've just learned that here, and lots of those who've gone before u here, understand it way better than me, so hopefully more folks will appear.  I'm going to flag @[he...] this time.  He helped me so much!  So did others, and I'll bet if he don't know it, someone he knows better than I do, he can flag!  Denise

[[Es...]]

@[Md...]

No, BZD and alcohol don’t act on exactly the same receptors.

Here is an interesting article for you: “The Effects of Alcohol on the Brain“, which will give you information which receptors alcohol acts on. And a vid, if you prefer.

Plus an explanation why BZD are prescribed to alcoholics: “Alcohol Withdrawal Syndrome: Benzodiazepines and Beyond“.

This is all about harm reduction, just like with the opiates. Some people have to be kept on substitute medications forever.

You know, BZD are still a med of choice in many cases, only the timeline of using should be limited. 

 

[[or...]]

7 minutes ago, [[M...] said:

This is actually a good point.

Most doctors to this day aren’t even aware of the dangers or withdrawals benzos can inflict, and doctors have been prescribing them like they were candy since the 50’s. They probably also think that alcohol is much worse than benzos, so the last thing they’re going to do is offer alcohol as a possible solution.

Still, I’d like to know the science why some light alcohol (like a beer) couldn’t be a solution, but like you said, not enough human studies have been done, and the last thing a doctor is going to do is offer alcohol as a solution to anything, but they’ll be more than happy to hand out addictive pharmaceuticals that completely screw up the human brain. 

Good going western medicine! 👏 

I like my MD, although he may have very little knowledge of benzos, as he wasn't trained very recently.  I'd guess him in his 60, early. He is kind a gentle and wheel-chair bound and has the same type of disease as Stephen Hawking had.  I can't transfer doctors, at first because I didn't have the heart, second, another provider has no room for me.  We're a mess here with med. and dental.  I live not just near the Lost Coast but the Lost City you might say, forgotten but he has seen me go into remission on my T2 Diabetes with no meds, just nutrition.  He is willing to listen to my ideas, but I get to call some shots when I explain I only want to go VERY slow on my taper.  He saw what too quick a taper did to me, but we don't talk about it, and none of the doctors in ER, or my cardio believed it was the benzo taper being to fast, or they were afraid to.

I may never know, but yeah, I just keep reading and learning, then I can at least run things by my doc, he's real good and quite intelligent when he sees the evidence for "this patient" on alternatives to taking any further drugs.  I would take a pain-killer if I was hurt bad physically, I'd be screamin for one in fact, so I am not against Conventional medicine, I believe they should work together with Alternative Methods, especially nutrition and exercise. Unfortunately, some patients are just like I was, "just give me a pill", worry about nutrition and exercise??  I think not, not back then in the 80s for sure

 

[[Md...]]

48 minutes ago, [[E...] said:

@[Md...]

No, BZD and alcohol don’t act on exactly the same receptors.

Here is an interesting article for you: “The Effects of Alcohol on the Brain“, which will give you information which receptors alcohol acts on. And a vid, if you prefer.

Plus an explanation why BZD are prescribed to alcoholics: “Alcohol Withdrawal Syndrome: Benzodiazepines and Beyond“.

This is all about harm reduction, just like with the opiates. Some people have to be kept on substitute medications forever.

You know, BZD are still a med of choice in many cases, only the timeline of using should be limited. Calm down, please

Both the article and video you provided, state that alcohol binds to GABA receptors. The video specifically states that alcohol binds to the GABA-a receptor, which is the EXACT receptor that benzos bind to. The video also states that alcohol inhibits glutamate, which is also exactly what benzos do. 

And here’s a quote from an article that also confirms it.

“ Along with alcohol, GABA_A receptors are a target for benzodiazepines, barbiturates”

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2574824/

So unless I’m mistaken or misunderstanding something, it apparently seems like they do in fact bind to the same receptors!

And sorry, but I had to stop reading the article you provided as soon as it said that, “Benzodiazepines are safe”. 

I’m sure many people have had great success with getting off alcohol via benzos, but to say they’re safe in any kind of context is just irresponsible, imo. 

And my point still stands. Many doctors do believe that benzos are safe and have not only been handing them out like candy for decades, and no way in hell are they going to recommend alcohol for anxiety, even a glass of wine over a benzo, yet they’re all about prescribing destructive medication with debilitating side effects and withdrawal symptoms, so it’s no wonder we have no antidote for benzo withdrawals to this day. 

[[Es...]]

@[Md...]

You are being rude and disrespectful to me. I put time and energy into researching those links for you. And you didn't even read/watch the totality of them. You seem obsessed with the word GABA. It isn't the only neurotransmitter in the brain.

Please kindly read the BB guidelines which say to be respectful toward your fellow buddies. 

Alcohol acts on many other receptors beyond the GABA receptors. It has a euphorizing effect. It acts on dopamine and serotonin, among others. You could take two days to read and watch this material instead of answering me in a rush, just to get off steam.

Benzodiazepines can be used in extreme cases short term. SHORT TERM.

You seem to be having a very bad day. But you have no right to take it out on me.

I'm putting you on my "Ignore" list.

Wishing you to work through that anger and find its real cause. As you will not get anywhere with your taper in such a state of emotional instability. You need peace of mind.

I don't know if it's benzo rage or alcoholism and I no longer care. I just wanted to help you.

[[Md...]]

52 minutes ago, [[E...] said:

@[Md...]

You are being rude and disrespectful to me. I put time and energy into researching those links for you. And you didn't even read/watch the totality of them. You seem obsessed with the word GABA. It isn't the only neurotransmitter in the brain.

Please kindly read the BB guidelines which say to be respectful toward your fellow buddies. 

Alcohol acts on many other receptors beyond the GABA receptors. It has a euphorizing effect. It acts on dopamine and serotonin, among others. You could take two days to read and watch this material instead of answering me in a rush, just to get off steam.

Benzodiazepines can be used in extreme cases short term. SHORT TERM.

You seem to be having a very bad day. But you have no right to take it out on me.

I'm putting you on my "Ignore" list.

Wishing you to work through that anger and find its real cause. As you will not get anywhere with your taper in such a state of emotional instability. You need peace of mind.

I don't know if it's benzo rage or alcoholism and I no longer care. I just wanted to help you.

Yes, I am focused on GABA, because you said that alcohol DOESN’T act on the same receptors that benzos do, yet GABA is one of the main receptors they both act on. Again, even the video you posted states that. 

And yes, benzos CAN be used short term, but I personally don’t agree that just because they can be taken short term automatically makes them “safe”, as there’s always a risk with this medication, even short term. People have become addicted to benzos after only taking them short term, just like many other dangerous substances. And many people who have suffered from benzo withdrawal truly wish that they were illegal in the first place, so many, many people would also disagree with you. 

Btw, disagreeing isn’t the same thing as being disrespectful, so you can call me rude, disrespectful, and put me on your ignore list all you want, but I’m not the one throwing personal slings at people, telling them to calm down, accusing them of alcoholism, benzo rage, etc. etc.

Sorry, but there was just no reason to make this personal. 

I sincerely wish you the best of luck in life.

Cheers!

 

 

[[Pa...]]

This topic interests me personally because I too was prescribed a benzodiazepine when I entered a 30 day treatment facility for alcoholism but luckily, it was only for the duration of my 2 day detox to prevent seizures.  That was the end of my experience with Librium until years later when I voluntarily picked up Klonopin for sleep issues, not my best decision.

What I see in this thread is anger and passion about the subject matter which is a legitimate function of the Chewing the Fat forum.  What I don't see is disrespect or rudeness, in fact, I'm impressed the OP did not lash out when told to "calm down".  This is a discussion forum and members should expect disagreement when sharing their views, disagreement does not equal disrespect.

[[Es...]]

@[Pa...]

This "calm down" on my side was not appropriate, I agree. I felt strong emotions and I wanted the person to pause and reflect. I'll edit this sentence.

[[Pa...]]

1 minute ago, [[E...] said:

@[Pa...]

This "calm down" on my side was not appropriate, I agree. I felt strong emotions and I wanted the person to pause and reflect. I'll edit this sentence.

Thank you Estee, much appreciated. 

[[he...]]

All I can say is alcoholics are given benzos because they work in alleviating the extreme symptoms of acute alcohol withdrawal. And both alcohol and benzos are positive allosteric modulators of the GABA(A) receptors but bind to different sites.

[[Es...]]

7 hours ago, [[M...] said:

Yes, I am focused on GABA, because you said that alcohol DOESN’T act on the same receptors that benzos do, yet GABA is one of the main receptors they both act on. Again, even the video you posted states that. 

And yes, benzos CAN be used short term, but I personally don’t agree that just because they can be taken short term automatically makes them “safe”, as there’s always a risk with this medication, even short term. People have become addicted to benzos after only taking them short term, just like many other dangerous substances. And many people who have suffered from benzo withdrawal truly wish that they were illegal in the first place, so many, many people would also disagree with you. 

Btw, disagreeing isn’t the same thing as being disrespectful, so you can call me rude, disrespectful, and put me on your ignore list all you want, but I’m not the one throwing personal slings at people, telling them to calm down, accusing them of alcoholism, benzo rage, etc. etc.

Sorry, but there was just no reason to make this personal. 

I sincerely wish you the best of luck in life.

Cheers!

@[Md...]

I don't even know what "sling" means in English. It's not my native language and I cannot find the meaning. In my native language, telling someone to calm down, especially with a friendly emoji translates as "Spokojnie" , and has nothing insulting about it. Rather aims to stop the person's emotional flooding. I sensed your agitation and was trying to help. 

How can you ACCUSE someone of alcoholism or benzo rage? Alcohol use disorder is a disease, like any other, benzo rage is just a symptom. If you really want to know, the recovering alcoholics are people who saved my life in the first place. Although I'm only dependent on pills. But I had nowhere to go to therapy - so I went to them. There I learnt as much about alcohol and BZD as one possibly can. It's a different thing to convey it all in English.

My Husband is a recovering alcoholic and he was also given BZD short-term several times to save his life. He was even given the worst BZD, Xanax - to calm the jealousy which was driving him insane (in recovery) and of which I knew nothing about. 

His Father was also an alcoholic, but never went to AA. Which was my Husband's and mine lifeline for many years. I disagreed with many of the tenets, but kept going with him. Those people were my Friends. I watched them suffer, recover, die. They welcomed me with open arms, the happiest years of my life.

Husband's Father was on BZD long-term and he kind of controlled them. Practiced harm reduction. He had a double dx anyway, was deeply neurotic. Then, after a two-months detox from the BZD he was placed on a combo of AD, antihistamines, antipsychotics, you name it. He never went to AA. He restarted drinking during stressful times and died young shortly after.

My Husband had the luck of meeting a wonderful therapist (he was also my therapist) who sent him to AA. He's now gone, cannot believe it. We both owe him so much, we both loved the man.

No, I didn't make it personal. I'm in a different time zone, probably across the ocean. And was terribly tired when writing to you. What struck me was your agitation. It was a red light.

My willpower and impulse-control dwindled during the day but I just couldn't leave this post alone. My gut told me I had to answer. I don't know if you have alcohol use disorder or not. But even if you do, that would make me closer to you. Alcoholics are not that fond of benzos anyway as us, "pillheads".

I wanted to explain in my own words, but was falling asleep. I did my best to search those articles and hoped you'd read them. Even over two days or a week. I used to be a teacher at the uni. Maybe I expect too much of people. I'm deeply interested in neuroscience and that neuroscience vid was so simple.

Look, GABA is just one of many neurotransmitters, there are 40 of them in total. The main are acetylocholine, norepinephrine, dopamine, glutamate, serotonin and histamine.

This if from "National Library of Medicine': ”Neuropharmacology of Alcohol Addiction":

'"Alcohol is known to exert its primary action via a number of CNS neurotransmitter/neuromodulator systems, including the NMDA, GABA_A, glycine, 5-HT₃ and nAChRs as well as L-type Ca²⁺ channels and GIRKs. Variations in the genes of these target molecules may result in different alcohol-susceptible phenotypes. In particular, innate differences in the functioning of several brain systems, which define the reinforcing properties of alcohol, contribute to an individual response to this drug. In addition, very recent studies suggest that appetite-regulating peptides, such as leptin, ghrelin and orexin also play a relevant role in the regulation of the reinforcement system (Jerlhag et al., 2006a, 2007; Lawrence et al., 2006).

Once alcohol drinking is initiated, alcohol affects virtually all brain neurotransmission. Therefore, it is difficult to define which of these systems contributes most to the transition from controlled to compulsive drug use. However, some of the counteradaptive changes within the brain reinforcement system including the modulatory input systems may become persistent and it is believed that those persistent changes constitute the ‘molecular and structural switch' (Spanagel and Heilig, 2005) from controlled alcohol intake to compulsive alcohol abuse. However, those irreversible changes have so far not been clearly identified and it is suggested that in addition to the mesolimbic DA system, other brain systems, including the mesocortical and nigrostriatal pathways as well as their non-DAergic feedback loops and glutamatergic inputs might be involved in alcohol addiction. Furthermore, a persistent recruitment of antireward/stress mechanisms such as hypertrophic CRF1 receptor signalling might come into place as well."

Yes opioid, serotoninergic, dopamine, cannabinoid receptors... Plus it literally eats out the brain and internal organs in the body (it's a toxic solvent). 

Yes, it's easier to quit than the BZD. But alcohol use disorder is actually more serious condition than BZD dependence. Besides, alcoholics don't really care so much about the BZD. They'll eat a pack now and then to potentiate the effect of alcohol or cope with WD. But they prefer opiates.

I met a heroin addict in a hospital, who replaced heroin for a year with alcohol. Many heroin addicts do that. It's the euphoria, the complete oblivion - while the BZD are just doom & gloom. Except Xanax maybe, didn't try.

I'm sorry I canoot explain it in a really easy way. You know, I'm not a neuroscientist, I'm only a fan of neuroscience. Mother is a scientist and when she starts talking to me about her field, I understand NOTHING. 

And BZD are not safe of course, but this was not the reason to ignore the little "research" I did for you😿 No psych med is safe. Took you off my “Ignore“ list and wish I knew more about you... cause I had this red light... all this anger at a pill. I hate them too, but not that much. They are just chemical compounds.

Wishing you serenity, acceptance and peace of mind

Paula

 

 

 

 

[[Es...]]

7 hours ago, [[P...] said:

This topic interests me personally because I too was prescribed a benzodiazepine when I entered a 30 day treatment facility for alcoholism but luckily, it was only for the duration of my 2 day detox to prevent seizures.  That was the end of my experience with Librium until years later when I voluntarily picked up Klonopin for sleep issues, not my best decision.

What I see in this thread is anger and passion about the subject matter which is a legitimate function of the Chewing the Fat forum.  What I don't see is disrespect or rudeness, in fact, I'm impressed the OP did not lash out when told to "calm down".  This is a discussion forum and members should expect disagreement when sharing their views, disagreement does not equal disrespect.

@[Pa...]

I didn't know about your alcohol use disorder, thanks for sharing. This explains why you were able to CT Klonopin. It's next to impossible. 

Yes, they usually give long-acting BZD in rehabs, like Librium, diazepam, clorazepate. 

You had to sleep, so it's no use ruminating over past mistakes.

There is nothing shameful about a relapse. I was tired and cranky yesterday. The OP disagreed without analyzing or even scanning the whole material. Which made me angry.

Maybe it's my teacher streak. Maybe the material I post is too difficult. I'm used to reading and scanning text, as I work with the written word.

I cannot expect too much of people and I experience emotional flooding as well. Although mine is short lived. 

Oh well, always remember that English is not my native language, so many misunderstandings can arise from it.

All the best🤍

Paula

[[Md...]]

On 17/08/2023 at 14:08, [[P...] said:

What I see in this thread is anger and passion about the subject matter which is a legitimate function of the Chewing the Fat forum.  What I don't see is disrespect or rudeness, in fact, I'm impressed the OP did not lash out when told to "calm down".  This is a discussion forum and members should expect disagreement when sharing their views, disagreement does not equal disrespect.

Well said! Thanks for having my back here. 👍