On benzos for over 15 years, terrified to taper! Seizure risk?

[[Je...]]

I’ve been on and off benzos 3 times. I’ve been ON a lot longer than off. I have developed inappropriate sinus tachycardia, and postural orthostatic tachycardia. I’m only 32, I’ve had doctors go inside of my heart to check for things bc my heart rate was reaching 200. I’m very upset because I had tapered all the way down to 0.75mg and I was ALMOST off but after the diagnosis - I had no option but to reinstate for the 3rd time… I’ve experienced the terror that can come from tapering. I’ve only done dry tapers. Now a year ago I was on 3.5mg of Klonopin and now I’m on 2.5 (I just cut 0.5mg randomly one day and then randomly again another month) so now my daily dose is 2.5mg. I want to make a small cut of 0.25mg only because my pills are 1MG and I can NOT figure out how to do a liquid taper.. I just need to know I’m not the only one who’s been on and off this long… my nervous system is so sensetive and I’m terrified of a seizure!  Can anyone help me figure out how to do a liquid taper like I can’t get the jist of it… I can’t use alcohol or milk… I am so terrified of a seizure or anything and I just don’t want to be stuck on a high dose I would prefer to do a micro taper hobestly! Any help!!

[[je...]]

Jessica

 

It seems like your most pressing need is finding help with micro tapering, so I moved your thread to titration. First, let me say I've never come across anyone who had a seizure when they tapered small enough percentages. If you stay within 5-10% reductions there is no need to fear a seizure.

 

I used this method for micro tapering: https://benzodrytapermath.com/ It has videos explaining step by step what you need to do. What I would recommend is you use a combination of pills and titration. I.e. you use 2mg in pills and micro taper your 0.5mg pill. Then you can use 1.5mg in pills and taper your 0.5mg through titration etc.

 

You can also use water titration, and then another member (micedana) used Ora plus and mixed it as indicated in this article https://www.nationwidechildrens.org/-/media/nch/specialties/pharmacy/compounding-formulas/clonazepam-oral.ashx?la=en&hash=BBD3E4A5E334418EF12A25A8E09E6BF8

 

I know it sounds very daunting in the beginning but if you could have a look at the links I provided and maybe tell us what method you think you feel more comfortable with?

 

Libertas and Bob7 are usually very supportive especially when it comes to the maths.

[[po...]]

Hello JessicaxLynnx,

 

I’ve been on and off benzos 3 times. I’ve been ON a lot longer than off. I have developed inappropriate sinus tachycardia, and postural orthostatic tachycardia. I’m only 32, I’ve had doctors go inside of my heart to check for things bc my heart rate was reaching 200. I’m very upset because I had tapered all the way down to 0.75mg and I was ALMOST off but after the diagnosis - I had no option but to reinstate for the 3rd time… I’ve experienced the terror that can come from tapering. I’ve only done dry tapers. Now a year ago I was on 3.5mg of Klonopin and now I’m on 2.5 (I just cut 0.5mg randomly one day and then randomly again another month) so now my daily dose is 2.5mg. I want to make a small cut of 0.25mg only because my pills are 1MG and I can NOT figure out how to do a liquid taper.. I just need to know I’m not the only one who’s been on and off this long… my nervous system is so sensetive and I’m terrified of a seizure!

 

As a fellow POTS sufferer with an overly sensitive nervous system, I am so sorry you have had to endure so much suffering and disappointment. If you wish to, you may skim the (sub)forums — Benzo-free Celebrations and Progress Log for example —. You will realize through the thousands of topics there that you are not alone in this situation and that, thankfully, many BB members who were on benzodiazepines for years or decades have managed to taper off successfully; practical guidance and moral support helped them on their journey.

 

I understand that you are terrified of a seizure. So was I before I started tapering, when I quit zolpidem cold turkey. As jelly baby pointed out, a slow and gradual taper prevents this from happening. In the medical literature, case reports of seizures are those of people who were on supra-therapeutic doses of benzodiazepines (e.g. 15 to 60 times a normal dose) and quit cold turkey. Rest assured that seizures are a rare side effect, associated with sudden discontinuation of very high doses, and are not known to happen with appropriate tapering.

 

Can anyone help me figure out how to do a liquid taper like I can’t get the jist of it… I can’t use alcohol or milk… I am so terrified of a seizure or anything and I just don’t want to be stuck on a high dose I would prefer to do a micro taper hobestly! Any help!!

Your idea of micro tapering is sensible — it will be smoother on your CNS than larger but less frequent reductions —.

 

Typically, the recommendation is to taper by 5% to at most 10% of your current dose every month, no matter the tapering method (whether micro tapering or larger cuts). If you were to reduce by 10%, this would come out to 0.25mg the first month, and a micro taper would spread that cut over 4 weeks: you would reduce by 0.06mg over one week, or 0.03mg every 3 to 4 days. If you were to reduce by 5% (0.125mg over the first month), you would cut by 0.03mg over a week, or — if possible given your measuring equipment — 0.01mg every 2 days (ish).

 

Assuming a monthly reduction rate of 10%, the following month, you should be at 2.25mg clonazepam, so you will instead cut 0.22 or 0.23mg over that month, for instance 0.06mg one week and 0.05mg the next one; and so forth for every remaining month. The monthly reduction rate is dictated by the tolerability of your withdrawal symptoms: do not hesitate to slow down (below 10%, e.g. 7.5% or 5%) if you struggle. You will likely have to do so as your taper down to lower doses.

 

I would recommend against a water titration because clonazepam is not soluble in water. When you crush a tablet and add water, the result is an unstable suspension (not a solution), in the sense that the clonazepam (1) will sink to the bottom quickly and (2) may precipitate. This carries the risk of uneven dosage reductions and/or dosage errors. Note, though, that many members have tapered using this method with success — it is my personal opinion that people who wish to do a water titration be informed of this potential risk, which is based on the evidence in the scientific literature on benzodiazepines —.

 

Importantly, when switching formulations (pills to liquid and vice-versa, or liquid to another liquid), you may or may not notice a difference, whether positive or negative. This could be a change in your symptoms, a change of onset of action, etc. As a result, you should try the formulation at your current dose for a week or more, and see if you tolerate it well. If so, you can proceed to tapering; if not, you would need to consider another tapering method.

 

Below are some options for you to consider.

 

Compounding pharmacy

 

If you have access to a compounding pharmacy that could prepare a solution or a (reliable) suspension, you could ask your doctor that he writes a prescription for a not too potent compounded solution/suspension. This would be ideal, as the compounding pharmacy would prepare a liquid that remains stable and potent over time, so it would be safer than a water or OraBlend titration given the unknowns with these methods.

 

For instance, a clonazepam oral solution dosed at 2mg per 5mL (i.e. 2/5 = 0.4 mg/mL) is available in the UK: https://www.medicines.org.uk/emc/product/6022/smpc. You could ask your doctor that he writes a prescription for a solution or a suspension with the same concentration, and have it be compounded. At this concentration, your current dose of 2.5mg clonazepam would come out to 6.25mL solution (2.5 / 0.4 = 6.25).

 

To reduce your dose by 0.06mg clonazepam every week for the first month, you would have to remove 0.15mL solution (0.06 / 0.4) per week. For your first reduction, you would thus come down to 6.1mL solution (6.25 - 0.15), which you would measure as follows:

- draw 5mL from the vial using a 5mL syringe (running total: 5mL)

- draw 0.6mL with a 1mL syringe (running total: 5.6mL)

- draw 0.5mL with the 1mL syringe (running total: 6.1mL)

 

(The reason why it is preferable to dose 0.6mL then 0.5mL, rather than 1mL then 0.1mL, is that syringes are too inaccurate below 20% of their nominal volume. Dosing less than 0.2mL with a 1mL syringe should be avoided, and it is preferable to always dose between 0.5mL and 1mL.)

 

For your second reduction, you will stumble upon the following issue: you would have to come down to 5.95mL (6.1 - 0.15 = 5.95). Theoretically, you would proceed as follows: measure 5mL from the vial with a 5mL syringe, then 0.95mL with a 1mL syringe. The issue is that it is impractical and inaccurate to dose amounts below 0.1mL with a 1mL syringe, so it would be better to dose 6mL. Then, to account for the missing 0.05mL, you would reduce by 0.1mL (i.e. head down to 5.9mL) not 1 week later but only 4-5 days later — that is, you slightly speed up the pace to account for what you couldn’t remove before.

 

For your fourth reduction, you will again stumble upon this measuring issue (5.9 - 0.15 = 5.75). To circumvent this, instead of removing 0.15mL every week, it is much simpler to remove 0.1mL every 4-5 days starting from the second reduction.

 

Overall, your reductions would be as follows:

- start at 6.1mL solution

- one week later, head down to 6mL

- 4-5 days later, head down to 5.9mL

- 4-5 days later, head down to 5.8mL

etc.

 

Adjust the pace as needed: if your withdrawal symptoms take longer than 4-5 days to become tolerable, you may slow down and reduce by 0.1mL every week, or 10 days, or 2 weeks. In that case, lower your monthly reduction rate (e.g. from 10% to 7.5%).

 

Then, once 4 weeks have passed, calculate the dose that you need to cut over the following month according to your monthly reduction rate. For example, if you get down to 5.5mL and assuming a monthly reduction rate of 10%, you would taper by 0.55mL that month, so down to 5mL (or 4.9mL if, while you’re going, you feel it’s feasible). You would remove 0.1mL every 6 days.

 

Note that you can adjust the pace as you desire: if your withdrawal symptoms take longer than 4-5 days to become tolerable, you may slow down and reduce by 0.1mL every week, or 10 days, or 2 weeks.

 

Homemade Ora-Blend/Ora-Plus suspension

 

If you make your own Ora-Blend/Ora-Plus suspension, which is dosed at 0.1 mg/mL as indicated on the compounding leaflet, your current dose of 2.5mg would come out to 25mL (2.5 / 0.1). Your first reduction of 0.06mg would equate to removing 0.6mL suspension (0.06 / 0.1), so you would head down to 24.4mL (25 - 0.6). You would measure this as follows:

 

- either 1x 20mL with a 20mL syringe, or 2x 10mL with a 10mL syringe (running total: 20mL)

- 3mL with either a 3mL or 5mL syringe (running total: 23mL)

- 2x 0.7mL with a 1mL syringe (running total: 24.4mL)

 

(I was thinking that you could also use a normative, calibrated 25mL borosilicate glass graduated cylinder to measure 23 or 24mL, then the remainder with a 1mL syringe, but Ora-Blend/Ora-Plus seems quite viscous so it may be cumbersome. This one would be suitable: https://www.amazon.com/25mL-Premium-Graduated-Cylinder-Borosilicate/dp/B01LX4JIOQ/ , or the not much more expensive 5-10-25mL set: https://www.amazon.com/Measuring-Cylinders-Piece-Set-Borosilicate/dp/B082QJZY3V/ )

 

Since each batch of homemade suspension makes 120mL, this would mean that you have to prepare a batch every 4 days. Alternatively, since it can be stored for 60 days in the fridge, I believe you could make more than what the leaflet calls for — e.g. 12x 2mg (or 24x 1mg) Klonopin pills diluted in 240mL Ora-Blend/Ora-Plus. I will let Libertas comment on whether this is possible or not.

 

Otherwise, similarly to what jelly baby suggested, you could take 2x 1mg tablets and measure the remaining 0.44mg by dosing 4.4mL suspension. This removes the previous step of measuring 20mL suspension and also helps you save your suspension, so you won’t have to make a new batch as often. Ora-Blend/Ora-Plus is also relatively expensive ($30 for a 16 fl. oz / 473mL bottle), so better to save it if possible.

 

The following reductions would see you headed down to 2x 1mg pills + 3.8mL suspension (4.4 - 0.6) one week later, 2x 1mg pills + 3.2mL suspension the next week, etc.

 

As above, you will have to adjust the reduction rate to your current dose: after one month, you would be at 22.5mg clonazepam; 10% of this is 0.22 or 0.23mg, so you would now reduce by 0.06mg (0.6mL suspension) one week and 0.05mg (0.5mg suspension) the next one, for example.

 

Dry micro taper

 

Another option is a dry micro taper with a milligram precision scale.

 

First of all, for your measurements to be accurate, make sure that the scale is placed on a flat and stable surface. This topic (pinned to the Titration forum) explains how to use a scale for a dry taper: http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=233546.0

 

In practice, the weight of each pill varies. This leads to two approaches to dry micro tapering. You can either average the weight of 10 pills (weigh 10 pills, divide the weight by 10) and keep that weight for the rest of your taper, or you can weigh pills individually and calculate the weight to remove accordingly. In the latter case, for instance, if you are at 2.44mg clonazepam, you would use 2 whole 1mg clonazepam pills and remove 0.56mg clonazepam from the third 1mg clonazepam pill (1 - 0.44). If the third pill weighs, say, 0.217g, you would have to remove 0.121g pill (0.56 * 0.217).

 

If you decide to measure the average pill weight, assuming that it comes out to 0.2g, 2.5mg clonazepam would weigh 0.5g (2.5 * 0.2), or 500mg in pills. Reducing by 0.25mg clonazepam equates to a 10% reduction (0.25 / 2.5), so, on the first month, you would remove 50mg pill (0.1 * 500) to get there. This means that every week, you would remove about 12-13mg pill, or 6-7mg every 3 days.

 

As with a liquid taper, you would have to slow the pace as you taper down by recalculating the 10% monthly reduction every month. If you calculate the weight to remove from individual pills, you only need to know your current dose of clonazepam (e.g. 2.25mg after the first month) and use it for your calculations. If you average pill weights, remove 50mg pill weight the first month, then 45mg (0.1 * (500 - 50)) the next one, 40mg, 36mg, 33mg, 30mg etc. Again, do not hesitate to lower your monthly reduction rate if needed.

 

Bear in mind that the smallest reduction you can make will be dictated by the accuracy of your scale. Even if it is a “milligram precision” scale, it only means that the reading (display) has 3 decimals, i.e. 0.001g, but the accuracy is typically +/- 5mg (0.005g) on cheap scales that you can purchase online. This means that, for instance, if you have to remove 20mg pill weight over a month, you would only be able to do it in at most 4 successive reductions (20 / 5) of 5mg — so 5mg per week —. Be careful to check for the tolerance/accuracy indicated by the manufacturer before buying a “milligram precision” scale.

 

A dry micro taper can serve you well until the tail end of your taper. When the tolerance of the scale becomes an issue, that is, you cannot weigh your pill reductions accurately so it forces you to taper too quickly, you may want to switch to a liquid taper.

 

Please let me know if I can clarify any point I tried to explain above, especially if you need more examples with different concentrations (for a compounded solution or suspension) or weights (for a dry micro taper).

[[co...]]

 

I would recommend against a water titration because clonazepam is not soluble in water. When you crush a tablet and add water, the result is an unstable suspension (not a solution), in the sense that the clonazepam (1) will sink to the bottom quickly and (2) may precipitate. This carries the risk of uneven dosage reductions and/or dosage errors. Note, though, that many members have tapered using this method with success — it is my personal opinion that people who wish to do a water titration be informed of this potential risk, which is based on the evidence in the scientific literature on benzodiazepines —.

 

You are trying to scare people from a method that has successfully worked for many, many people on this board, while being prescriptive while doing so--which is against board policy.  You are also contradicting a board expert, Bob7.

 

You are correct that most benzosin pill form are not water soluble.  This is why it is important to use alcohol to dissolve the clonazepam or benzo before you add the water.  Typically you use 2 ml of 80 proof alcohol like vodka for each mg of the pill that you are dissolving.  Bob7 describes how to do it in this thread: http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=268505.20 and gives this particular example:

 

 

You will need a total of 40 of your 0.5 mg pills to do this method.

 

Each day put 1/2 of a 0.5 mg pill in a jar.

If desired, add a tiny amount of Vodka to cover the pill and break it up.

Then add 125 mL of water and stir very, very well.

Then remove 46 mL of the mixture and throw it away.

Your jar now has 0.1575 mg of your drug in a 79 mL mixture.

 

Each day, remove 1 additional mL of the mixture and drink the rest. 

 

You will be done in 79 days.

[[Pa...]]

 

I would recommend against a water titration because clonazepam is not soluble in water. When you crush a tablet and add water, the result is an unstable suspension (not a solution), in the sense that the clonazepam (1) will sink to the bottom quickly and (2) may precipitate. This carries the risk of uneven dosage reductions and/or dosage errors. Note, though, that many members have tapered using this method with success — it is my personal opinion that people who wish to do a water titration be informed of this potential risk, which is based on the evidence in the scientific literature on benzodiazepines —.

 

You are trying to scare people from a method that has successfully worked for many, many people on this board, while being prescriptive while doing so--which is against board policy.  You are also contradicting a board expert, Bob7.

 

You are correct that most benzosin pill form are not water soluble.  This is why it is important to use alcohol to dissolve the clonazepam or benzo before you add the water.  Typically you use 2 ml of 80 proof alcohol like vodka for each mg of the pill that you are dissolving.  Bob7 describes how to do it in this thread: http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=268505.20 and gives this particular example:

 

 

You will need a total of 40 of your 0.5 mg pills to do this method.

 

Each day put 1/2 of a 0.5 mg pill in a jar.

If desired, add a tiny amount of Vodka to cover the pill and break it up.

Then add 125 mL of water and stir very, very well.

Then remove 46 mL of the mixture and throw it away.

Your jar now has 0.1575 mg of your drug in a 79 mL mixture.

 

Each day, remove 1 additional mL of the mixture and drink the rest. 

 

You will be done in 79 days.

 

Hi confuseduser,

 

I didn't get the impression potatosaur is trying to scare anyone and don't find the post prescriptive.  Contradicting another member as long as its done politely isn't a problem, we welcome discussion and different points of view.  Just because something has been done a certain way for a long time doesn't mean it's the right or only way, if new information become available it makes sense to take a look at it.

 

As you know, we're on our own here and if someone presents new information that seems incredibly well researched, I feel we owe it to ourselves to if not adopt it then to at least consider it. 

 

Lastly, Bob7 is not an expert, no one on this forum is, we're all peers who do our best to help each other and I for one am glad we have Bob7 as well as you and potatosaur. 

 

Pamster

[[gr...]]

I have to agree with confuseduser. Potatosaur is claiming that the liquid solutions of benzodiazepines do not stay in solution once they are mixed with water.  I called West Ward and asked them if it stayed in solution once diluted with water and    they told me absolutely it stays in solution. I have just switch over to the lorazepam intensol so potato kind of freaked me out with his persistence that it does not stay in solution. I understand that Potato is reading a lot and finding different studies  but they mostly pertain to IV benzos  and solubility or dissolving straight benzos with water. I have not had a problem with the lorazepam intensol but now I'm starting to question the whole thing and am probably creating problems where no problem exists...  He is also stating that by using milk you create a true solution....That is not fact or even proven. Most websites like The benozo coalition group state that milk only creates a suspension not a solution.  A lot of misinformation being spread around.

[[po...]]

Thank you, Pamster.

 

As I have pointed out, this is my personal opinion and it is based on the evidence in the literature. For that matter, the package insert for any benzodiazepine, whether it be clonazepam, lorazepam, diazepam or so forth, explicitly states that the molecule itself is insoluble or nearly insoluble in water. This is information approved by the FDA. Thus, water titration conveys the risks of precipitating the benzodiazepine that a pill or an oral solution contains (crystallization) and/or creating an inhomogeneous suspension, which can result in potential dosing errors and/or uneven dosage reductions.

 

confuseduser, I am not trying to scare anyone away from water titration. I have repeated in all of my posts that it has been followed successfully by many members. However, (a) members should be informed of the potential risks based on the evidence in the scientific literature, which cannot be ignored, and (b) positive anecdotal accounts do not constitute valid scientific evidence. Once again, this caution is solely for the purpose of harm reduction. If safer alternatives exist (e.g. for clonazepam, a compounded solution/suspension or a homemade Ora-Plus/Ora-Blend suspension), it is worth suggesting them.

 

Your reply shows that you are confusing disintegrating a pill with solubilizing the benzodiazepine that it contains in an ethanol-water mixture. Vodka does disintegrate the pill, and in sufficient amounts, it likely also dissolves the benzodiazepine in the pill, as long as the pill remains in vodka alone. The crux of the matter is that subsequently adding water to the vodka significantly reduces the concentration of the resulting mixture in ethanol, to the point that it is insufficient to solubilize the benzodiazepine in this mixture. In other words, even if an appropriate amount of vodka (i.e. a sufficient quantity of ethanol) suffices to disintegrate the pill and may be able to solubilize the benzodiazepine on its own in the first place, diluting the vodka with water reverts the solubilization of clonazepam.

 

You can glean from my review of ethanol as a solvent for diazepam — or rather than referring to my interpretation, you can directly verify the cited studies — that the ethanol-water mixture as a whole should contain 40% alcohol by volume to dissolve diazepam with a sufficient sink factor (understand it as overhead, or spare room, for solubility, in order to avoid precipitation). As the data in the literature show, clonazepam is less soluble in ethanol than diazepam, so the mixture should likely be more than 40% alcohol by volume.

 

In the specific example that you cited from Bob7, this would mean that the 125mL mixture should contain more than 50mL ethanol to solubilize clonazepam with a sufficient sink factor (again, the molecule itself) — that is to say 125mL vodka (as it is itself 40% alcohol by volume / 80-proof), or a stronger alcoholic beverage should be used (e.g. Everclear) —. Of course, this is an unacceptably high amount of alcohol.

 

With regards to “being prescriptive”, I explicitly stated in my reply to JessicaxLynnx that this is my personal opinion (informed by the literature) and in no way did I formally instruct her not to do a water titration. Also, it should be reminded that the following statement is added after every post on BB, and it applies to my post, as well as yours or Bob7’s (in which disintegrating pills with alcohol is recommended):

 

Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

 

Please rest assured that this is no personal “vendetta” against water titration. If anything, I would very much have liked that benzodiazepines be soluble and stable in water. It would have made water titration a practical and consistently safe choice for all BB members. It is unfortunately not the case, hence the research that has gone into finding suitable alternatives.

 

gray cloud, I have not stated that milk is an adequate solvent for either clonazepam or lorazepam, but only that it is a decent one for diazepam (at temperatures between 25 to 40C) per the evidence in the literature. I have made this clear multiple times in our previous discussion, and as you can see, I have not mentioned milk in my reply to JessicaxLynxx. As for diazepam, I have referred you to the relevant study previously (Macheras et al., 1990), so there is in fact proof for it.

 

It seems fairly clear, from your accusation of cherry-picking studies (e.g. focusing on IV infusions) and twisting their conclusions, that you have not read my review on the solubility of diazepam in various solvents. I have searched the literature with the tools available to me — PubMed and Google Scholar — and investigated all relevant research articles that turned up in the results; there is no reason that I would have cherry-picked studies. As I mentioned to confuseduser above, if anything, I would be biased towards wanting that benzodiazepines be soluble and stable in water, i.e. towards cherry-picking evidence claiming that they are. However, I did not do so, nor did I preferentially select studies that do not support using water as a solvent for benzodiazepines.

 

In our discussion on lorazepam, I followed the same unbiased search procedure. Per this procedure and the FDA-approved information on the monograph of your lorazepam oral solution (stating that the molecule is insoluble in water), I provided you with evidence that once diluted 10-fold with water, the lorazepam in your oral solution does not stay dissolved and as such, the resulting mixture is a suspension. Regarding your phone call with West-Ward, you were not able to identify the position of the person who answered your question on mixing your oral solution with water (a pharmacist or otherwise), and the evidence — even just the FDA-approved monograph of the solution — contradicts their claim.

 

Importantly, I am not interpreting the evidence all by myself — three persons with extensive backgrounds in chemistry, including two in pharmacology (one of them a pharmacist), have helped me do so. I have said previously that I am not an expert by any means, which is why I have asked their advice to (a) verify my interpretation of the studies I have read and (b) when I could not interpret the data myself.

 

On the other hand, gray cloud, you stated multiple “facts” on lorazepam that you were not able to substantiate and, despite the many clarifications that I have provided, you have repeatedly misinterpreted my work. While I understand your concern about the implications of this work for your own taper, this is not an adequate response. Allow me to repeat that as long as you feel that your water titration is going well, as it has for many members, then you may do as you see fit.

 

Consequently:

 

- confuseduser, I would please ask of you that you do not accuse me of (a) trying to scare people away from water titration and (b) being prescriptive. I am informing BB members about the risks of this method based on FDA-approved information and evidence from the scientific literature;

 

- gray cloud, I would please ask of you that you do not accuse me of (a) spreading mis/disinformation, (b) cherry-picking studies and © attributing things that I have not said to me, such as milk being a suitable solvent for benzodiazepines other than diazepam.

 

I am wholeheartedly open to scrutiny, which is essential to any scientific work. If you wish to verify claims that I have made but cannot access relevant research articles that I have cited, please send me a PM listing the ones you need — within reason — and I will gladly send them to you in PDF format.

 

Finally, if you are able to, I also invite you both to systematically review the literature for data on the solubility of benzodiazepines in water (and/or other solvents that may be commercially available to private customers, safe and practical), as I have attempted to do for diazepam, and share them on BenzoBuddies for the benefit of all members.

 

 

[[Ka...]]

Hey everyone - let's get back to the issue at hand which is helping our member JessicaxLynnx which is what this thread was intended for.

 

JessicaxLynnx, I do understand your fear since I had it as well and I didn't have the heart issues you do!  I did a water taper like the one in this YouTube video using Klonopin.  I also didn't want to use alcohol since I quit drinking when I stopped benzos.  The Klonopin particules do not dissolve in water so I stirred it vigorously before dosing and I dosed immediately.  It worked very well for me - I successfully got off benzos.  You can use any amount of water you want since the amount of water you use determines the number of days you taper.  Plus, no math is required!

 

 

Please let me know if you have questions or need help.  I'll be happy to support you.   

 

 

[[gr...]]

Potatosauer I did not see anything that you  say that you posted as  far as evidence that once diluted 10 fold with water the Lorazepam in the oral solution does not stay as a solution but becomes a suspension. Maybe you sent it but I cannot find it anywhere.....

[[po...]]

Potatosauer I did not see anything that you  say that you posted as  far as evidence that once diluted 10 fold with water the Lorazepam in the oral solution does not stay as a solution but becomes a suspension. Maybe you sent it but I cannot find it anywhere.....

gray cloud, I presented the evidence in our previous discussion where I explained why the lorazepam in your oral solution cannot stay dissolved once diluted 10-fold with water. If there is evidence from the literature that shows otherwise, I will, once again, be happy to have a look at it, should you post it in the other topic. Otherwise, I cannot explain the insolubility of lorazepam in water any further than what I have already done. http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=268397.msg3375713#msg3375713

 

As Kate08 mentioned, we should now get back to helping JessicaxLynnx on this topic.

[[po...]]

JessicaxLynnx, I should add that if you decide to do a water titration, please heed Kate08’s advice. That is, the crushed pill - water mixture must be shaken thoroughly and you should dose immediately after shaking, otherwise most clonazepam particles will have sunk to the bottom of your recipient by the time that you dose.

[[Pa...]]

JessicaxLynnx, I should add that if you decide to do a water titration, please heed Kate08’s advice. That is, the crushed pill - water mixture must be shaken thoroughly and you should dose immediately after shaking, otherwise most clonazepam particles will have sunk to the bottom of your recipient by the time that you dose.

 

Hi potatosaur,

 

Thank you for bringing this thread back to the OP's concerns as Kate08 suggested but if anyone would like to continue this discussion might I suggest a thread in Chewing the Fat?  This is exactly what we like to see, participants respectfully debating facts and theories.  Thank you to all who have participated in this discussion.

 

Pamster

[[gr...]]

You presented no evidence of Lorazepam intensol going out of solution when water is added!! Where is the study that you claimed to have sent?

It is your opinion that it goes out of solution when water is added, that is a lot different than an actual study. And even if you had an actual study, they are not fool proof or guarantees of anything.

[[Ka...]]

I'm issuing a second request here that we stick to the topic of helping our member(s) with tapering and NOT debate taper methods, research studies, etc!!  If you cannot offer our member(s) support here, please do not comment any further.  As Pamster suggested, please use the Chewing the Fat board for such discussions.

 

Kate08

Admin Team