Please, Someone,

[[xe...]]

I'm at <0.35mg K. I had jumped off 3mg, made it a month, and reinstated at 1mg.

 

The past week has been absolutely brutal. The past few days have been as bad as the worst c/t moments. I've only slept a handful of awful hours in 2 days.

 

I feel like I am just slightly teasing my brain by continuing to taper at this point. Marlene thinks I should jump. Most other people say "noo!!! never stop tapering!"

 

I really am ready to say goodbye.

 

Please, someone, tell me you think it's the right thing to do.

[[...]]

I say jump! Get it out of your system, and be done with it!

 

By prolonging it any longer, you are forcing your body to beg for more and more of the drug, when it doesn't get it, it strikes back by giving you increasingly harsher withdrawal symptoms..... knowing that you are benzo free will probably be a big boost to your moral.

 

Just my humble opinion.......You have to make the call.

[[xe...]]

That's 2.. come on guys..

[[Mi...]]

At .35 mgs, you are roughly around 7.5 mgs Valium.

 

Personally, I would not jump if I were you, but would continue tapering until you hit at least .125 mgs.

 

If you jump too soon, it may come back to bite you.  Then, you'll want to reinstate because you jumped too soon, and each time you reinstate, the journey off becomes more and more difficult.

 

A slow, safe taper is still the best way to go.  I know you want to be off and done with it, but you don't want to suffer by jumping too soon.  I know this from personal experience.

 

Let us know what you decide.

 

[[xe...]]

At .35 mgs, you are roughly around 7.5 mgs Valium.

 

Personally, I would not jump if I were you, but would continue tapering until you hit at least .125 mgs.

 

If you jump too soon, it may come back to bite you.  Then, you'll want to reinstate because you jumped too soon, and each time you reinstate, the journey off becomes more and more difficult.

 

A slow, safe taper is still the best way to go.  I know you want to be off and done with it, but you don't want to suffer by jumping too soon.  I know this from personal experience.

 

Let us know what you decide.

 

 

Not reinstating. Already done c/t and already reinstated been there done that! I'll die in benzo w/d if I must.

 

It feels like I'm going in and ever-so-slightly out of c/t w/d at this point, I really think this falls outside of "slow, safe taper" wisdom.

[[xe...]]

Ok, Nicole (lamberfn) is on board, depending on how the night goes and how I feel tomorrow (which makes both of us, need another night to see how I'm feeling,) so that's 3.

 

Come on, I need these opinions to help get Christine's permission!

[[we...]]

xeno, I would wait a couple of more days.  If you don't get any sleep, I think we should reconsider then.

[[St...]]

From everything I've read on these boards, it's always the hardest on the last 10 mg valium. I think Missy is spot on, you may in a world of hurt if you stopped now, so I vote to keep reducing till you're off.

[[ve...]]

Hi Xeno.  Sorry you are suffering so much at this juncture of your taper.  I would not c/t if possible.  There is a c/t thread that I started some months ago.  I will try to bump it up for you.   I am one who did a c/t off about 6mg valium and reinstated so you can guess my opinion about it from my own decision.  Everyone must make their own decision though.  There may be some who did get through it unscathed, but it can be very tough, perhaps rougher than what you are experiencing now or  the s/x could be longer lasting in some cases.  Yet some who c/t and/or jump off a significant remaining amount of benzo seem to continue to post around forum about symptoms for a long time afterward.  There are no guarantees and everyone is different, but I personally believe the chances for a full recovery in less than a year are better if not doing a c/t.  

 

Best wishes whatever you decide.

 

Vertigo

[[xe...]]

Hi Xeno.  Sorry you are suffering so much at this juncture of your taper.  I would not c/t if possible.  There is a c/t thread that I started some months ago.  I will try to bump it up for you.  You can read about the pluses and minuses.  I am one who did a c/t and reinstated so you know my opinion about it from that.  There are some who did get through it, but it can be very tough, perhaps rougher than what you are experiencing now or if not, the s/x could be longer lasting in some cases of c/t.  Not always the case and there may be some who can c/t and get through and be healed within six months.  Yet some continue to post about symptoms for a long time afterward.  There are no guarantees but I personally believe the chances for a full recovery in less than a year are better if not doing a c/t.  I will bump up the c/t thread in a minute.

 

Best wishes whatever you decide.

 

Vertigo

 

Guys.. I really don't think the "I've done c/t" is getting through here... no offense meant...

 

And how exactly do you define c/t? I don't think 0.25mg falls under it, just an extremely high jumping point.. and I'm right above it.

 

PS -- I've been given the green light for seizures by my doc (she says I have no worries there, and she's actually done acute detoxes in the psych ward), so there's no liability here. But I really don't feel like this is c/t.. it's kind of half-way.

 

Nikicole.. that's 4..

[[ve...]]

No offense taken Xeno.  .25 klon is equivalent to 5mg valium.  To put in perspective, I did a c/t off about 6mg valium in summer 2008, resulting in insomnia, increased anxiety, palpitations and vertigo which landed me in the ER three weeks later.  Even a small amount as 5mg resulted in big reaction for me (which may not be the case for you). I chose to reinstate back to 5mg valium and ended up doing a ten month taper off it in 2009.

 

Also, my understanding is that you are in severe withdrawal now after coming down rapidly from 1mg K to where you are today.  This was after a c/t off 3mg K, waiting a month and resintating to 1mg.  So you are already in significant withdrawal, some might even suggest an updose in your situation, much less jumping off here.  Anyway, sorry if it appeared that anyone suggested you had already done a c/t when coming down from 1mg.  If I read correctly, you are contemplating jumping off of .25 (which some may define as a c/t, others may not, after rapidly tapering (less than a month from 1mg klonopin, having been on 3mg just two months ago).  Is that correct?

 

Vertigo

[[Cr...]]

My vote is to continue tapering lower.  I would definitely wait to get under .25mgs since you have been on K for so long.  You said you won't reinstate no matter how bad you feel and I believe you.  I just think that tapering lower could lessen how bad feel when you come off.  You know what you are capable of enduring, so I hope you make a decision based on what you personally feel would be best for your mind and body.  You got the support of the forum either way  

[[ve...]]

I agree with Chrono about tapering lower.  Just want to add one other thing, Xeno.  I think you mentioned that your doctor gave you "the green light" in terms of not likely to have seizures if you jump here.  Just want to comment that there may be more to consider than seizures.  There are tons of well meaning doctors out there who don't seem to understand the severity, intensity and duration of withdrawal off the so called "shorter half life" benzodiazepenes such as Xanax, klonopin, ativan... as compared with valium.   It may be the case that you might not have a seizure (I don't know since I am not a doctor) but there are other unpleasant possible s/x such as tinnitus, vertigo, palpitations, panic, insomnia and others, some of which you may already have experienced or are experiencing after going from 3mg klonopin to 1mg and to where you are today at .35.

 

It's ultimately your choice what to do from here.  If it were me, I personally would either updose to about .60 or if you don't want to do that, maybe consider a slow titration off the .35 over the next 3-6 months.  It doesn't sound like updosing is something you are willing to do so if the alternatives are jumping here or going slowly from here, I would taper.  I don't know that there will be a huge noticeable difference between the two but I think tapering from here might at least soften the landing a little.  Sorry if that does not sound great but I think it is a fair assessment based on what you have posted your history is.  It may still feel like "hell" at times, although you will likely have a chance to avoid  even more intense symptoms.

 

Good luck.

 

Vertigo

(Not a doctor, always check with your physician about tapering decisions)

[[xe...]]

No offense taken.  .25 klon is equivalent to 5mg valium.  To put in perspective, I did a c/t off about 6mg valium in summer 2008, resulting in insomnia, increased anxiety, palpitations and vertigo which landed me in the ER three weeks later.  Even a small amount as 5mg resulted in big reaction for me (which may not be the case for you). I chose to reinstate back to 5mg valium and ended up doing a ten month taper off it in 2009.

 

Also, my understanding is that you are in severe withdrawal now after coming down rapidly from 1mg to where you are today.  This was after a c/t off 3mg, waiting a month and resintating to 1mg.  So you are already in significant withdrawal, some would even suggest an updose in your situation, much less jumping off here.  Anyway, sorry if it appeared that anyone suggested you had already done a c/t.  If I read correctly, you are contemplating jumping off of .25 (which some may define as a c/t, others may not, after rapidly tapering (less than a month from 1mg klonopin, having been on 3mg just two months ago).  Is that correct?

 

Vertigo

 

No it's not correct. I was in c/t w/d for a month. I then took a month and a half to stabilize on the reinstatement. I have tapered from 1mg to 0.35mg in about 3 months.

 

I have updosed before and have reinstated, I'm sorry vertigo but I have to be honest the thought of it being suggested to updose and taper over another year has made me kind of angry. I am so done dancing around this drug. And your description below of what I may go through makes me feel you have no idea what I'm going through now and went through during my c/t... why would you assume I didn't have all the severe w/d symptoms jumping from 3mg of K already?

 

This isn't to become a debate on this.. thanks for your opinion, but that is definitely, without a doubt, one option that isn't even in the realm of possibilities for me.

[[ve...]]

Hi Xeno.  I understand the anger. I was in a "benzo rage" myself after my c/t back in 2008 and was quite anxious and angry at times during my taper in 2009.  I can imagine it might be even more intense off larger doses of klonopin, and  quite likely with more physical s/x such as nerve tingling, burning, shaking... I don't know your symptoms Xeno but I have no doubt that you are suffering and have suffered a lot.  Here is the thing that I have learned from being on forum for a while.  Those who c/t or "taper" rapidly  off "large" amounts of benzos are likely to experience symptoms for six months to a year, sometimes longer.  There are several books and websites that have established that the "average" benzo recovery is between 6-18 months, some say up to 2 years.  Whether you jump here or taper slowly off the .35, it is possible if not probable that you will experience symptoms for a while. The question is how severe will they be and for how long.  Nobody knows the answer for sure. There's many possible scenarios but many would agree that tapering leads to a softer landing in most cases.

 

I hear you that you don't wish to updose.  Then, tapering slowly from where you are at .35 may at least be a softer landing than jumping here.  Jumping here will not likely lessen the time frame of healing involved, but may increase it.   That being said, tapering the remaining .35 over some period of months, while possibly lessening the shock to the system, may still result in another six months of post taper issues/recovery.  The bottom line is that the next six months or more, regardless of how you achieve your benzo freedom, is possible if not likely to be a challenge in some ways.  The question is how to lessen the severity of symptoms, perhaps not the duration.     Sorry, don't mean to discourage, just keeping it real.

 

Best,

 

Vertigo

[[Fl...]]

I have updosed before and have reinstated, I'm sorry vertigo but I have to be honest the thought of it being suggested to updose and taper over another year has made me kind of angry. I am so done dancing around this drug.

 

This is your decision and some others might disagree but I'm 100% with you.

 

I jumped off at .25 of clonazepam in January. I was in a world of hurt for the first couple of months but now at 4.5 months the lights are starting to come back on I am VERY glad that I got off the drug when I did. If I had done a "proper" taper I might still be on the stuff. Would I have had an easier taper? Probably. Would I have had an easier time after I jumped? Who knows. But I do know one thing, and that is you will have to pay the piper at some point. Life is precious and our time on this earth is short so every day you are on the poison is one less day you will be able to enjoy your life.

[[...]]

I have to agree with Vertigo on this one.  I went to a detox facility in March of last year.  They crossed me over to Klonopin .5 mg for 10 days then .25 mg K for 3 days.  In total, it was a 13 day "taper".  The psychiatrist told me that .25 mg of K was "nothing" and that there was no way I would have a seizure.

 

Klonopin has a 18-50 hour half life which would explain why I didn't freak out until about the 5th day after my last .25 mg dose.  At that point the symptoms became so unbelievably unbearable I was begging to go to the ER but the detox facility refused to take me as I would be "drug seeking".  P.S. I am not and have never been a drug addict.  If I had not been in such a horrible state of utter panic and mental confusion, the idea of me "drug seeking" would've been laughable. 

 

I was locked into the drug facility, unable to leave, and unable to go to the ER.  If you jump at .25mg, it is highly likely when the shock finally hits your CNS, you will reinstate.  Every time you reinstate it causes a kindling effect making future attempts at withdrawal more difficult. 

 

I completely understand why you do not want to updose and I think if you can handle the symptoms you have now without updosing that is preferable.  I also understand why the thought of putting any more of this crap in your body is repulsive, as well.  The main reason for encouraging you to hold at your current dose and continue a slow taper is because I think in the long run, you will be better off.

 

I am now 13.5 months benzo free.  I was extremely ill for the first 10 months.  Even now, I am still symptomatic.  I don't think a slow taper necessarily shortens the length of withdrawal once off the drug, I think it just eases the symptoms adding in the taper time, total recovery is essentially the same.  Bottom line, how much do you want to suffer?  If I knew what I know now, I would never have gone to detox and would have even titrated all the way down.

 

 

[[sa...]]

I hit the wall at .3 clon and climbed back up so I am not a good example.

This is always a tough question. Keep suffering drawing out the taper or jump into a darker hades and get it over with.

My heart is with you.

 

Let us know what you decide to do.

 

If you really cant hang on, I'd jump and make sure I have people around me 24 hours a day. But that's just me. There is no way to know what awaits you at the end of the jump.

 

You are in my thoughts tonight.

 

[[Mi...]]

You've received quite a few good responses from people with personal experiences at both tapering and going cold turkey.

 

In the end, it's a personal decision and totally up to you.  Whatever you decide to do, we'll be here to help you through it.

 

I still think you should continue your taper, though.

[[xe...]]

I have developed quite a few further thoughts over the night, and they are all telling me to jump. I don't know why some of you guys are still telling me about c/t agony as if I'm not both in it and have been through it, it is making me a little dismissive.. What I DO keep hearing is that it's going to probably take just as long to get better no matter what I do, and that makes me want to get the heck off right now!

 

#1 - I jumped off 8mg of Suboxone, and was horribly acutely protractedly ill for 9 months with post-acute crap to follow. I nearly died, I nearly killed myself. If I could go back and do it again.. I wouldn't change a thing, I wouldn't put that poison in my body another single day. There was no getting better until that stuff was gone. If I had a taper and the same post-jumping misery to follow anyway, then perhaps I WOULDN'T have made it! Thanks for reminding me of this FloridaGuy.

 

#2 - I don't feel like I've really made any progress. This feels no different than if I was just trying to cushion my c/t jump off 3mg with 0.35mg right off the bat. My body is telling me, emphatically, that I'm not going to get better until I'm off this stuff. The goal here was to lessen the severity, but I'm really not sure it's working at all in the end, I'm going to face c/t-level pain no matter what I do, and I'm going to take just as long to get better no matter what point I jump off. I tried to get off easier. I failed. (And trying to do it again for a 3rd time is beyond illogical.)

 

#3 - If I could go back 3 months ago before this final taper - I would just jump off the 1mg. I could have been benzo free for 3 months right now. The whole point of reinstating and this taper was that it'd be easier in the end. It's really not.

 

Vertigo -- I heard you the first time and told you that it wasn't even on the table, it feels like you are preaching to me at this point and it's making me kind of angry from a more logical perspective, not benzo angry. I said this wasn't to become a debate, and it's certainly not, but I feel like sharing this from the Ashton Manual (Supplement) that I couldn't agree with more --

 

Reinstatement, updosing

 

A dilemma faced by some people in the process of benzodiazepine withdrawal, or after withdrawal, is what to do if they have intolerable symptoms which do not lessen after many weeks. If they are still taking benzodiazepines, should they increase the dose? If they have already withdrawn, should they reinstate benzodiazepines and start the withdrawal process again? This is a difficult situation which, like all benzodiazepine problems, depends to some degree on the circumstances and the individual, and there are no hard and fast rules.

 

Reinstatement after withdrawal? Many benzodiazepine users who find themselves in this position have withdrawn too quickly; some have undergone 'cold turkey'. They think that if they go back on benzodiazepines and start over again on a slower schedule they will be more successful. Unfortunately, things are not so simple. For reasons that are not clear, (but perhaps because the original experience of withdrawal has already sensitised the nervous system and heightened the level of anxiety) the original benzodiazepine dose often does not work the second time round. Some may find that only a higher dose partially alleviates their symptoms, and then they still have to go through a long withdrawal process again, which again may not be symptom-free.

 

Updosing during withdrawal? Some people hit a "sticky patch" during the course of benzodiazepine withdrawal. In many cases, staying on the same dose for a longer period (not more than a few weeks) before resuming the withdrawal schedule allows them to overcome this obstacle. However, increasing the dose until a longed-for plateau of 'stability' arrives is not a good strategy. The truth is that one never 'stabilises' on a given dose of benzodiazepine. The dose may be stable but withdrawal symptoms are not. It is better to grit one's teeth and continue the withdrawal. True recovery cannot really start until the drug is out of the system.

 

Pharmacologically, neither reinstating nor updosing is really rational. If withdrawal symptoms are still present, it means that the GABA/benzodiazepine receptors have not fully recovered (see above). Further benzodiazepines cause further down-regulation, strengthen the dependence, prolong withdrawal, delay recovery and may lead to protracted symptoms. In general, the longer the person remains on benzodiazepines the more difficult it is to withdraw. On the whole, anyone who remained benzodiazepine-free, or has remained on the same dose, for a number of weeks or months would be ill-advised to start again or to increase dosage. It would be better to devote the brain to solving individual symptoms and to finding sources of advice and support. Advice about how to deal with individual symptoms is given in the Manual (Chapter 3).

 

I'm really not sure I can bring myself to dose today. The thought of drinking it and further prolonging this painful process just makes me want to cry. I slept 5 semi-decent hours last night, and I don't feel in c/t agony this morning, but I still feel just god-awful, absolutely terrible regardless, just the edge is slightly taken off -- for now.

 

Thanks everyone for your responses, and it's my decision of course and no one is responsible for what I decide to do and how I handle the repercussions.

[[xe...]]

I've made my decision. I am rapidly tapering the rest. Middle ground. It'll let me get lower actually as I'd certainly give up sooner doing the slow taper. Now to come up with some sort of plan...

[[xe...]]

PDoc's opinion: I should have jumped off a while ago, this ain't working at all for me, and she says I'm the toughest drug fighter she's ever seen and I will make it through like much weaker people do. She is dying to know how I beat my opiate addiction while suffering so horribly.

[[Pa...]]

Hi xenofears,

 

Tapering and jumping off doses are up to the individual, we usually stress personal choice, your taper your way.  If you're ready to jump, or to speed it up considerably, then you should do it.  Indecision ramps up stress which increases anxiety, so I hope you'll eliminate it by deciding what you need to do for you. 

 

You've been here before, you know what to expect and you're not going to reinstate no matter what, so your choice seems pretty clear to me.  Get off of it now or as soon as you can and deal with what comes next.

 

Pam

[[xe...]]

Thank you Pamster.

 

Can I ask for a plan to get off 0.35mg of K in 2 weeks?..

 

Faster daily reductions? Big cuts held? To what dose? Still plenty of options here... I don't think I want to continue daily reductions, it eased the pain of bad days for a while but I feel like I never really "caught up", as per my recent other post.

[[Fl...]]

It is probably beneficial from a comfort standpoint to ease yourself off of the drug by tapering and it is definitely important to taper to avoid the risk of seizures, but beyond that it just doesn't make sense to me to prolong the agony that you are going to have to face at some point.

 

I know what it is like to jump from .25 clonazepam and it SUCKS. I read posts by people who are in misery and still have months of taper to go and I feel very bad for them. They are already in withdrawal and suffering and they still have several months of taper to look forward to and then another 6-18 months of healing once they are off the drug.

 

That's a LOOOOOONG time to suffer.