Benzo Liquid Formulation Discussion

[[sl...]]

Apparently, according to the medical study Libertas sent me (linked at the body of the recipe found linked in my sig), a 30% ethanol solution can only hold around 5-6mg of clonazepam per 30ml. I wanted 30ml to hold 3.75mg, plus tablet junk, etc, so I used 30%. I think 30ml of pure water could dissolve something like less than 1mg of clonazepam, for comparison. I should write this all in mg/ml, but I'm sorry, I'm tired! Definitely more alcohol = more storage, and I take such tiny tiny liquid doses, I don't really care. Maybe someday I'll refine this recipe. I'm just happy it's working! 

[Guest [ba...]]

The 5-6 mg limitation is if you try to dissolve klonopin directly into 30% alcohol.  And yes - if you tried to dissolve klonopin directly into water, you wouldn't get much in.  That's not what I did.  Ideally, I've prepared a colloidal suspension of dye (in this case).  Read up on colloidals.  You could probably get 5-6 mg of 'K' into 30 ml of 2% ethanol via a colloidal approach if it was done correctly.  But colloidals can be touchy, and verification of a true colloidal would require testing that I just can't do anymore.  The experiment was definitely not Nature quality, but it was the best I could do at this time with what I have to work with.

 

fwiw - I made the dye sugar pill solution again and held it in the fridge overnight.  It remained perfectly dispersed.  So the suspension looks to be fairly stable. 

[[no...]]

Hi I just found this thread and I was sent this message regarding PG and Diazepm  and I don't know the answer so if I put it here perhaps someone can help answer it please as waht they want to know is according to the link they found below that 1mil of PG (propylene glycol.) should be enough to dissolve 17mg of Diazepam can you check it out and let me know if this correct?

 

Because the usual floating around for a PG solution on BB is to add 2ml of  PG per 1mg  pill or 4ml for a 2mg Diazepam which if your on a high dose say 30mg of Diazepam or more than you have to add a silly amount of PG (120mls) which I wouldn't want to risk, and it would work out the same for Alcohol as some people like to do their whole dose in liquid with no pills at all which is what this person wanted to do. Thanks

                   

                                                                        Nova xxx  :smitten:  

 

I found this link http://www.fshealth.gov.za/subsites/DWoods/Mixtures/diazepam.html where it is stated :

 

Diazepam has a solubility in water of 0.05mg per mL; 41mg per mL in 95% ethanol and 17mg per mL in propylene glycol.

 

I was wondering since this above info suggests if  I could add 10 mg of diazepam in 1 ml of PG before diluting it with water....

Could you share your insights or experience in this?

 

 

[Guest [ba...]]

There are on-going discussions about this kind of stuff.  One of the things that we're currently discussion is how well a 'kitchen chemist' can replicate a laboratory result.  Forum members won't have magnetic stirrers and bath sonicators to disperse ingredients as well as a lab can.  Labs mix these solutions for a lot longer than is practical for most.  Forum users also aren't using pure reagents like a lab does.

 

So if a lab can do 17 mg/ml, what can a kitchen chemist do?  I suggested that I might be comfortable with 50% of that value, but it's just a hunch - no data to substantiate it.  I'm a retired lab-jockey; maybe I'm over-estimating what others can do??  So that's not an answer, but a consideration that this other person should take into account.  If they're an old lab-jockey, they they might get closer to the lab value.  In general, the more 'wiggle room' you leave, the safer you can feel about the formulation.

 

Also - we're going to debunk the 1:2:8 formulation.  A couple well-meaning members put out that formulation some years ago, and we know it gets repeated a lot.  However, it doesn't actually work for some benzos.  So we're looking at re-defining it (with enough wiggle room to feel confident about it).  It's actually kind of difficult to come up with a one-size-fits-all formula.

[[Pa...]]

Hi I just found this thread and I was sent this message regarding PG and Diazepm  and I don't know the answer so if I put it here perhaps someone can help answer it please as waht they want to know is according to the link they found below that 1mil of PG (propylene glycol.) should be enough to dissolve 17mg of Diazepam can you check it out and let me know if this correct?

 

Because the usual floating around for a PG solution on BB is to add 2ml of  PG per 1mg  pill or 4ml for a 2mg Diazepam which if your on a high dose say 30mg of Diazepam or more than you have to add a silly amount of PG (120mls) which I wouldn't want to risk, and it would work out the same for Alcohol as some people like to do their whole dose in liquid with no pills at all which is what this person wanted to do. Thanks

                   

                                                                        Nova xxx  :smitten:  

 

I found this link http://www.fshealth.gov.za/subsites/DWoods/Mixtures/diazepam.html where it is stated :

 

Diazepam has a solubility in water of 0.05mg per mL; 41mg per mL in 95% ethanol and 17mg per mL in propylene glycol.

 

I was wondering since this above info suggests if  I could add 10 mg of diazepam in 1 ml of PG before diluting it with water....

Could you share your insights or experience in this?

 

 

Nova,

 

If you were sent this message via the PM system, please use the report this personal message tab located inside the message content because it's against forum rules to ask for or give taper support via the PM system.

 

Pamster

[Guest [ba...]]

Pamster's totally right here, and it's because of uncertainties such as what I mentioned that those types of discussions should be done in the main forum.

[[no...]]

Hi I just found this thread and I was sent this message regarding PG and Diazepm  and I don't know the answer so if I put it here perhaps someone can help answer it please as waht they want to know is according to the link they found below that 1mil of PG (propylene glycol.) should be enough to dissolve 17mg of Diazepam can you check it out and let me know if this correct?

 

Because the usual floating around for a PG solution on BB is to add 2ml of  PG per 1mg  pill or 4ml for a 2mg Diazepam which if your on a high dose say 30mg of Diazepam or more than you have to add a silly amount of PG (120mls) which I wouldn't want to risk, and it would work out the same for Alcohol as some people like to do their whole dose in liquid with no pills at all which is what this person wanted to do. Thanks

                   

                                                                        Nova xxx  :smitten:  

 

I found this link http://www.fshealth.gov.za/subsites/DWoods/Mixtures/diazepam.html where it is stated :

 

Diazepam has a solubility in water of 0.05mg per mL; 41mg per mL in 95% ethanol and 17mg per mL in propylene glycol.

 

I was wondering since this above info suggests if  I could add 10 mg of diazepam in 1 ml of PG before diluting it with water....

Could you share your insights or experience in this?

 

 

Nova,

 

If you were sent this message via the PM system, please use the report this personal message tab located inside the message content because it's against forum rules to ask for or give taper support via the PM system.

 

Pamster

The person has left the forum but I did tell them that I can't advise them on this or any other taper issue and to post it on the open forum under the tapering section. But I asked here as I was curious myself regarding the amount of PG on the link Pam

                          Nova . 

[Guest [ba...]]

Quick follow-up.  The (Sudan IV) sugar pill suspension continued to look uniform for 5 days, then I decided to dump it.  Not unexpectedly, a fair amount of the dye now associated with the plastic container.  I worry about this for people who want to make multi-day supplies of their drug.  The dye (and presumably the drug) prefers the plastic environment to the aqueous environment. 

 

So while I like the dispersion of the dye (and presumably the drug) using this alcohol and water approach, I do not think the solution can be stored for significant periods of time.

[[no...]]

Quick follow-up.  The (Sudan IV) sugar pill suspension continued to look uniform for 5 days, then I decided to dump it.  Not unexpectedly, a fair amount of the dye now associated with the plastic container.  I worry about this for people who want to make multi-day supplies of their drug.  The dye (and presumably the drug) prefers the plastic environment to the aqueous environment. 

 

So while I like the dispersion of the dye (and presumably the drug) using this alcohol and water approach, I do not think the solution can be stored for significant periods of time.

Its well known that plastic absorbs Diazepam you can find that info anywhere on the web, but I don't know about other drugs as I'm on Diazepam so I searcher that a lot or did at one time, I try not too now as it just make me more anxious and I'm always anxious, also regarding using as a solvent glycerine I found research quite a while back that said certain drugs clump together so its no good for all drugs but it didn't say which drugs. But you can probably find more info about it on the web.

 

                                                                                                        Nova xxx :smitten:  

[[ki...]]

Quick follow-up.  The (Sudan IV) sugar pill suspension continued to look uniform for 5 days, then I decided to dump it.  Not unexpectedly, a fair amount of the dye now associated with the plastic container.  I worry about this for people who want to make multi-day supplies of their drug.  The dye (and presumably the drug) prefers the plastic environment to the aqueous environment. 

 

So while I like the dispersion of the dye (and presumably the drug) using this alcohol and water approach, I do not think the solution can be stored for significant periods of time.

 

I store my diluted solution in glass jars, but my Rx solution is stored in the plastic bottles the pharmacy uses. Is this a problem?

[Guest [ba...]]

Quick follow-up.  The (Sudan IV) sugar pill suspension continued to look uniform for 5 days, then I decided to dump it.  Not unexpectedly, a fair amount of the dye now associated with the plastic container.  I worry about this for people who want to make multi-day supplies of their drug.  The dye (and presumably the drug) prefers the plastic environment to the aqueous environment. 

 

So while I like the dispersion of the dye (and presumably the drug) using this alcohol and water approach, I do not think the solution can be stored for significant periods of time.

 

I store my diluted solution in glass jars, but my Rx solution is stored in the plastic bottles the pharmacy uses. Is this a problem?

 

How is it working for you?  Does the liquid seem to work as well on day 3 or 4 as it does on day 1?  How long are you storing it?

 

I agree that the tendency for valium to associate with plastic is known.  I suspect many drugs behave similarly, and there's even some published studies demonstrating the tendency.  I think I recall seeing a paper on Ativan IV formulations sticking to their containers over time.  A few of us are trying to review existing approaches and published studies to create more of a best practices resource.

[[ki...]]

Quick follow-up.  The (Sudan IV) sugar pill suspension continued to look uniform for 5 days, then I decided to dump it.  Not unexpectedly, a fair amount of the dye now associated with the plastic container.  I worry about this for people who want to make multi-day supplies of their drug.  The dye (and presumably the drug) prefers the plastic environment to the aqueous environment. 

 

So while I like the dispersion of the dye (and presumably the drug) using this alcohol and water approach, I do not think the solution can be stored for significant periods of time.

 

I store my diluted solution in glass jars, but my Rx solution is stored in the plastic bottles the pharmacy uses. Is this a problem?

 

How is it working for you?  Does the liquid seem to work as well on day 3 or 4 as it does on day 1?  How long are you storing it?

 

I agree that the tendency for valium to associate with plastic is known.  I suspect many drugs behave similarly, and there's even some published studies demonstrating the tendency.  I think I recall seeing a paper on Ativan IV formulations sticking to their containers over time.  A few of us are trying to review existing approaches and published studies to create more of a best practices resource.

 

I have had my liquid Rx for over a year (prescribing doc quit and I am on my own with what I have which is more than enough). The diluted liquid in the glass jar I started only making two days worth at a time (per previous discussion in this thread). I haven’t had any issues I think. I’ve noticed an uptick in symptoms the last month, but I assumed it was due to my current dose (.85 mg) and my cuts finally catching up to me. Would it be better for me to store my remaining undiluted Rx solution in glass bottles?

[Guest [ba...]]

So far, I'm pretty good with a 2-day supply.  That seems to be working for people.  I'm a bit skeptical about storing these solutions for a week.

[[ki...]]

So far, I'm pretty good with a 2-day supply.  That seems to be working for people.  I'm a bit skeptical about storing these solutions for a week.

 

What about the longevity of the Roxane Westward Rx liquid as it comes from the pharmacy? The pharmacy label says it expires a year from dispensing, but I recall Builder saying the original packaging states 3 years from manufacture.

[Guest [ba...]]

That stuff should be plenty stable.  It's the huge dilutions (in water) that we're talking about.

[[sl...]]

The powder you see are the fillers that are in the tablet.  They comprise 99+ percent of the tablet's mass.  You'd never see the klonopin in there - it's there in too small a quantity.  The fillers are often not soluble in water or alcohol.  It's often cellulose or something like that.  As long as the alcohol content is 30+ percent, I don't think you need to worry about the drug being carried away by the insoluble powder.  So I guess I'm saying to just ignore that powder and use the liquid.

 

Badoscref, your comment got me thinking. I've just been doing like darkarchon and shaking it all up and taking a dose of medicine and tablet filler. But do you think that vacuum filtration would remove the tablet filler while allowing the clonazepam to pass through with the alcohol and water? Seems like it would and I have a small vac filtration setup, just not the means to verify the clonazepam content of the results.

 

The Accord Healthcare tablets I'm using are made of anhydrous lactose, lactose monohydrate, magnesium stearate, microcrystalline cellulose and starch (corn). Do any of those fillers sound like they'd cling onto the clonazepam for some reason?

[Guest [ba...]]

I'm not sure about vacuum.  You're already close to the solubility limit.  Ethanol evaporates more quickly than water - especially under vacuum.  Losing a little ethanol could crash some of the drug.  I think most people would tend to make small volumes which would add to my alcohol evaporation concern.  And you'd need a vacuum pump, tubing, a regulator and vacuum filtration manifolds to do this.

 

I've thought about pushing the mixture through a 0.45 micron syringe filter to remove the insolubles, but one has to actually verify that the drug doesn't bind to the membrane under the conditions being used.  Same is true btw for the vacuum approach.  No special equipment is needed and syringe filters cost much less than vacuum filtration units.

 

I'm sure that suitable membranes exists, and there may even be precedence in the literature if you look hard enough.

[[sl...]]

You make some good points badoscref. I have a TINY vacuum setup, specifically for ethanol extracted cannabinoids; thing runs on a little aquarium sized pump, but my glassware and funnel are too big for these 30ml batches I like to make. And again, with no way to test the results, I'd rather just eat tablet filler...

 

I'd be curious if you found anything in the literature that indicated a filter membrane requirement; I was just going to use some paper filters I have around. Again, not going to bother unless my chemistry friend would do an analysis on the results, and I'm not sure it's worth our trouble.

 

Thanks for your thoughts!

[Guest [ba...]]

I haven't actually looked for a suitable membrane in the literature.  Packing for a camping trip right now.  The next week my time will be pretty limited.

 

I've filtered ethanol tinctures of cannabinoids too, but those are 95% ethanol tinctures.  THC is very soluble in 95% ethanol.  At least 200 mg/ml. 

 

I'm pretty sure that I found some errors in SG's Ativan solubility calculations from the mole fraction paper.  If you want to try calculating mg/ml from mole fractions and densities, I'd be happy for you to double-check my work.

 

https://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metadc402444/m2/1/high_res_d/Acree%20-%20Pub%20486.pdf

[[sl...]]

I hope you have a great camping trip!

 

I'll need some more clues about what calculations you want me to double check. What does SG stand for? What were the results on the paper, versus the results you came up with?

[Guest [ba...]]

'SG' stands for an old forum member.  The link to the paper was attached.  All of the data is in the paper in Table 4.

 

These (below) are the solubilities that SG compiled.  Perhaps you've seen this table before - it gets posted occasionally.  The Ativan values came from Table 4 of the linked paper.  They're expressed as mole fractions in the paper.  We typically use mg/ml for the ease of the readership.  There's a double peak in SG's Ativan mg/ml calculations that I was never comfortable with.  So I finally went back and did all of the calculations again and obtained somewhat different values.  I don't want to share those changes until they've been checked - you know how I am about double-checking things.  I will say that the double peak went away. 

 

You seem to like this kind of stuff.  I figured maybe you'd want to take a look.

 

Units = mg/ml

% Alc.  V          A        Lib      K       

0        0.04    0.05    0.11    0.03   

10      0.11    0.11    0.19    0.04 

20      0.21    0.23    0.29    0.08

30      0.57    0.77    0.80    0.20

40      1.90    3.51    2.89    0.60

50      4.76    4.19    7.48    1.43

60    11.17    8.04    12.48    2.64

70    21.31  13.09    22.89    4.22

80    28.67  17.33    31.81    5.65

90    38.36    6.64    31.72    6.18

100  26.07  10.89    19.46    5.11

[[sl...]]

Haha, I definitely DON'T like this stuff. I really don't. I've been motivated to make clonazepam tapering simple and safe and reliable, entirely out of self-interest. I am inspired to try to make my three-part approach more accessible to other K taperers; I've been surprised to notice how many new K taperers decide to start with a dry taper. Fiddling with a scale every day does not meet my goal for a low-effort taper routine.

 

It seems to me from the threads that the amount of options available to a liquid taperer are overwhelming for beginners. I'll refrain from trying to list the variables; it's nearly endless. Describing the vast territory and then expecting new taperers to narrow down the options for themselves doesn't seem to be working.

 

I'm now sailing along on a liquid/tablet hybrid DMT, and I wouldn't want it any other way. I'm not doing fancy chemistry; it's just cylinders, alcohol, a medicine bottle and an oral syringe. The pharmacy compounded equivalent I'm trialing feels exactly the same as my homebrew, btw. As it should; a little sigh of relief...

 

Sorry, I don't want to crunch those numbers. I do want to help buddies who can't transition to V taper as smoothly as possible on K. That's my inspiration. I'd appreciate seeing your corrected table, specifically the K column, if you're willing to share...

 

P.S. Table 4 doesn't have any K numbers; the study you linked to was just V, A and Lib.

[Guest [ba...]]

The K values come from a different paper.