% rate of cut question

[[Sk...]]

HI

I started out at 1mg klon  dosing 3x's a day.  a one time cut of 10% then wait two weeks and repeat.The following cut being 10% of .9mg wait .....etc..

Ok so now Im at .58mg doing the same method. My next one time cut for the two weeks will be 10% of .58mg.. roughly .058mg.

This is working pretty smoothe so far. No bendryl yet, Im still functional.

Thing is here....these cuts are getting progressively smaller as I go...Does there come a point when I need to make larger then one time 10% cuts...so the mg cut doesnt get rediculously small and take to long to withdraw off this stuff...

I know I need to go slow, but I dont want to unecessarily prolong the withdrawl process.

The last cut I make...when I jump off will be a 100% cut...

[i dont feel comfortable titrating every day. For now I like cutting 1 time then at the end of 2 weeks it peaks/ mellows and then do another cut...I will cut more often and less later if I have to...]

 

So if you could just suggest some Ideas here I will have an idea if Im cutting way to slow..

Thanks Skeeter

[[el...]]

[i dont feel comfortable titrating every day. For now I like cutting 1 time then at the end of 2 weeks it peaks/ mellows and then do another cut...I will cut more often and less later if I have to...]

 

So if you could just suggest some Ideas here I will have an idea if Im cutting way to slow..

Thanks Skeeter

 

Hi Sk,

I think someone more knowledgable in titration than I will have to answer your question. And I'm still not sure what you mean about not titrating everyday, sorry!

[[Ta...]]

Skeeter,

 

You and only you will know if 8% will be too slow. Most of us that titrate based on the formula Colin created come to the last pill to titrate and then start 'absolute cuts'. That means that, yes, towards the end, your cuts are bigger percentage wise (otherwise you will never get off this stuff).

 

I recommend you try little bigger cuts towards the end and see how it goes. You can always slow them down if you need to.

 

I am so glad you are doing this Skeeter!  You are already on .58 mg of klono!! 

 

Tanya 

 

[[Sk...]]

[glow=red,2,300]That means that, yes, towards the end, your cuts are bigger percentage wise (otherwise you will never get off this stuff).[/glow]

 

Thats what I was thinking...Guess Its going to be trial and error...I do know that 10% is a guidline in the begining so at least I have a reference....

Thanks Skeeter

[[Co...]]

Hi Skkeeter,

 

The titration spreadsheet we use converts a regular taper rate (10% every 14 days, for example), to an equivalent daily rate. Then, each day is recalculated to reflect recent cuts to the daily dose (typically, a new small cut is carried out every day at the beginning of titrated taper). When the dose becomes quite low, the spreadsheet switches to a regular cut - that is to say, the same amount is cut over given period; the cuts no longer become smaller and smaller.

 

The reason for this is two-fold. Firstly, as you suspected, an ever-diminishing taper would keep the taper going almost indefinitely; and secondly, at low doses, our GABA system has largely recovered normal function, so the effects of the benzo are minimal. Continuing to take benzos for longer than needed only serve to perpetuate the addiction.

 

The spreadsheet formula switches to absolute cuts at one tablet as default. This supposes that the smallest dose for the given benzo is being used. Most benzos are roughly of a similar potency for their smallest dose tablet, so this is reasonable. I'm open to a discussion as to whether one tablet should be default - I feel it might be a little too cautious for most people, but should cause no harm. With Xanax, since it is available in 0.25mg tablets, but is similar in potency to some other benzos who's smallest available tablet is 0.5mg, I am inclined to produce schedules that introduce absolute cuts at a dose of two 0.25mg tablets (0.5mg). Of course, if they are using 0.5mg tablets, then absolute cuts will start at one tablet. Similarly, the absolute cuts will start at a fraction of tablet if they are using higher dose tablets. For example, for someone titrating 1mg tablets of Xanax, I will typically start the absolute cuts at half-a-tablet (0.5mg). This means that the plan followed, irrespective the actual dose of the tablet being used, are practically identical for a given taper rate. Incidentally, I would usually start absolute cuts at about 4mg of Valium (two 2mg tablets), since its 2mg tablets are relatively low potency. Another factor in deciding a reasonable dose at which to start these absolute cuts is the overall taper rate. Someone who is following a very slow and gentle taper plan (because they experience difficulties when they try to taper any faster), they would probably benefit from the absolute cuts starting a lower dose than most people - perhaps at half of a 0.5mg Klonopin tablet (0.25mg), for example. It is a system that needs more development, and will be tweaked as more of our members have been through it.

 

I'll have to look back at your posts to see what titration plan you are following.

[[Sk...]]

Collin

I am not following a titration plan....

Like I posted...I am making a one time cut of around 8% every two weeks..Then recaculating and makeing another one time 8% cut...

 

A couple things..

1 I am used to haveing a window every two weeks..to regroup.

2 I am going to have to stay with the 1mg tablets ( we can work around that I would think)

3 Do you now have a interactive spread sheat for us to use?

4 Im seriously thinking of going to the titration...only thing I want to start extreemly slow and

end up with a window as soon as possible to regroup...

5 Im starting to get a bit of fear when I go to sleep...so maby its time to titrate

6 Any thoughts of just doing the once every two weeks cut? or are you convinced titration is much easier

 

thanx Sk 

[[Co...]]

Hi,

 

Oh, I assumed that you must be titrating. How do you make up your doses to match your calculations? I mean, surely pill-splitting does not allow you the control needed to make such distinctions in dose possible?

 

The spreadsheet is not yet released. I need to make some changes to it before then. It works fine, but is too easy to mess up in its present state. I do intend to release it though. For the time being, I use the spreadsheet and transfer the table into some other software to enable me to upload it to the web, rendering it in HTML. Just check the threads on the titration board for working examples of titration tables.

 

You can use titration yourself (you do not need a schedule table) if all you are using it for is to obtain exacting doses. However, people, generally, seem to cope better when making frequent small cuts to their dose rather than less frequent larger cuts to their dose (with recovery time in between). We do have a few members that prefer to live with the shock of a cut, recover, and then experience a window. Of course, it is never as predictable as this, and at the same time, a titrated taper appears to allow some to experience a virtually symptomless withdrawal, if the taper rate is sensible of course.

 

Edited for clarity.

[[el...]]

Sk,

I thought you were titrating too! Sorry.

[[Sk...]]

Now you'all got me confused...

 

Im disolving a 1mg tablet in milk... adjusting my dose every two weeks...so ?

I guess thats titrating  however Im making 1 time 8% cuts all in one day... then wait 2 weeks  repeat...

Colin..

I would like to get some numbers off of you... for a slow 7% taper for a 1mg talblet klon.

thanx Sk

If I have to I can disovle a 1mg table and then split the mix into two containers to .5mg.each..im using syrenges. tx

[[si...]]

we sure have a lot of smart people on this forum

 

when i read percentage cuts i just about fainted - i thought you were talking about savings accounts.

[[el...]]

Now you'all got me confused...

 

Im disolving a 1mg tablet in milk... adjusting my dose every two weeks...so ?

I guess thats titrating  however Im making 1 time 8% cuts all in one day... then wait 2 weeks  repeat...

Colin..

I would like to get some numbers off of you... for a slow 7% taper for a 1mg talblet klon.

thanx Sk

If I have to I can disovle a 1mg table and then split the mix into two containers to .5mg.each..im using syrenges. tx

 

Ok, so you ARE titrating. Eeeeek!

Well, I can't help you, sorry. Colin is the expert.

[[Co...]]

Hi,

 

So, you take one 1mg tablet per day, but titrate it so that you consume just 0.6mgs - is this correct?

 

Are you sure you wish to slow taper down from 8% every 14 days down to 7% every 14 days? I can create a table for you, and it will automatically slow the taper as you dose diminishes. I would usually switch to absolute cuts (they no longer grow smaller as your diminishes) at 0.5mg of Klonopin, but since you are following a pretty slow taper, maybe you should start the absolute cuts at a slightly lower dose - 0.4mgs, perhaps. It can always be adjusted later if need be.

 

How about if you stick to 8% cut every 14 days, but with the table I produce, you will be making very small cuts every day or two. This will cut out the sudden changes to your dose. It is also how the spreadsheet works. You could, I suppose, just miss cuts and make larger cuts using the table I produce, but you will be missing the purpose of the schedule - to make very small but frequent cuts. So, is this OK? A table starting at 0.6mg; absolute cuts starting at 0.4mg; and a taper rate of 8% (or 7% if you prefer) every 14 days? I just need to know about your syringe: its volume and the marked increments. A 100ml cylinder with 1ml increments would be better though. A cylinder means you can agitate the liquid to ensure even distribution of the benzo powder.

[[Sk...]]

Hey Colin

My containers can hold 100ml im sure....Im measuring the liquid in with a syringe. So its right on the mark. I can get hold of different size syringes.. Im using a 20ml syringe right now. Marked of in 1ml.

I dont know Colin..exactly how fast to cut. This last cut hit me pretty hard. It was a 7.6% cut to .589mg which Ive been at for 8 days....Im just holding in there waiting for the 14 day mark, hopeing this will let up some. Im getting quite a bit of fear when I fall to sleep, and overall just feel like crap. I may have to go a bit slower after this cut. I think Dr. Ashton says 5-10% every two weeks...I may be one of the ones thats nearer the 5% mark...the absolute cuts, I dont know when to start them??? like I said Im pretty sure this is going to go slow..thanx

  I know this isnt going to be a cake walk.. I hate it!!  My system is extreemly addictive...

Im still thinking a 7% rate... then like I said after about 2wks Im going to hold my cut and make sure its going ok....

I really want to get this done...I know its all withdrawl symptoms...thing Is I have to do it to myself...Hope I dont buck...

Skeeter

[[Co...]]

Hi Skkeeter,

 

I've just run through some numbers - I think you might benefit by obtaining a 100ml cylinder marked with 1ml increments. This will allow you to make small and controlled cuts to your dose. Using your syringe several times to produce a single larger volume will introduce greater errors. Generally speaking, the less measurements we make, the more accurate the result.

 

You can use our titration system, but the table will consist of just 11 different doses: the first being 11ml from the 20ml syringe, with a reduction of 1ml every-so-often until you reach zero. It will take you until mid-November to taper off. A 100ml cylinder with the 1ml increments would start you off at 60ml (from the 100ml), with 1ml reductions; I think this would be better.

 

Additionally, if you later find the taper rate to be too slow, I can make up a new one.

 

Anyway, just let me know if you want to stick with the syringe, or if you will obtain the cylinder. The cylinder also allows you to agitate the liquid - this is not really possible with a syringe - and will allow for a more even distribution of the benzo powder.

[[Sk...]]

Colin

Hey, Its no problem I can get a cylinder. If I can find one....Im using small unmarked containers right now with 60ml.

Im extreemly careful in my measurements, but I can see how multiple measuring might throw me off.

Right now my cuts are .0166mg per ml  in size.... I see the ones you figured are at .01mg per ml... How often are you figuring on me making these 1ml cuts?... So then, If Im seeing this correct, My cuts will not get any smaller then .01mg. That gives me an answere as to how small to go on my cuts. Then I guess its just a matter of how often I can handle the .01mg cuts?... I also read that the jump off is around .0125mg klon  correct?...so this would put me right in there then.

Crap Colin....Ever see the movie "Nightmare on Elm Street"...?    That pretty much me right now..I seem to be able to hang pretty good during the day....But when Its time to go to sleep... crap!! The [glow=red,2,300]nightmare[/glow] begins. Extreeme fear falling to sleep which wakes me back up, the some Hidious Nightmares....I got 4hrs sleep last nite. I took 3 benedryl.....Oh well...Guess this is part of it....Freddie's Here.....

Thanks Colin... So....just a recap... how often are you planning these .01mg cuts..My own pace??.. thanx

[[si...]]

hi skeeter - night terrors are not all that unusual - your ability to dream is returning - i just tried to enjoy the return of my dreams unless their was violence - i don't like violence - but i tolerated real bizarre stuff well.

 

3 benedryl is a lot - you may want to slow down there and adjust your sleep routine to be more user friendly.

 

sleep supplements are great when you absolutely need them - but for many of us - they stop working w/in a few days or a week - then when we cannot sleep it can get real hard or scary.

 

i have learned to adjust to far less sleep then i think i need - but i am going back to bed now.

 

have a good day.

[[Co...]]

Hi Skkeeter,

 

You will need a 100ml cylinder. The method requires that you powder one whole tablet; this will be added to 100ml of milk. I think your present dose is equivalent to 60/100 of a pill, which is what I said your dose would start off as being 60ml out of the 100ml - the other 40ml is discarded. Each day, or near each day, your dose will decrease by a ml or two. The taper is characterised by small frequent cuts to your dose. The spreadsheets works out doses and date based upon a general taper rate which work out from your present regimen. It will be much clearer once I produce the table for you. There is nothing for you to work out (the tables provides doses and dates). The taper automatically slows down each day, and the dose indicated by the table is the best possible fit to the theoretical numbers produced by the formula. It is very accurate.

[[Sk...]]

Colin

Cool...I have a cylinder coming..should be here in a few days..( If Freddie dont get me) 

thanx....

 

Colin...any thoughts on the benedryl ??

 

silver---I hear you.. thanx...