Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[an...]]

Good.  I'm glad you read them.  I was kind of shaky converting those units as they were quite foreign to me as I am not used to working with moles, mole fractions, and all that.  But I think I did eventually get it right.

 

Great that you are trying to contact the author.  If he doesn't have data he might know where it can be found.  Xanax is puzzling.  I would think interest in its solubility would be high.  Another thing that surprised me was his Librium data.  Librium has always been treated by taperers as water soluble and people use plain water to dilute it.  But his data indicates its  solubility is not much better than the others at .11mg/ml.  Very poor.

 

Gardener,

 

Here is a link to the information on the liquid.  Is this the same as what is in your insert?

 

http://dailymed.nlm.nih.gov/dailymed/archives/fdaDrugInfo.cfm?archiveid=4919

 

I agree. He might be able to direct us to other studies. Is there a liquid formulation of Xanax available? 

 

I will look again at the author's  Librium data tomorow.  From what you said it contradicts what is found in the literature. I just took a quick look on PubMed and Librium has a pKa of 4.8--same as acetic acid (lorazepam has a pKa of 13). The water solubility is reported at 2000 mg/L which would be 2 mg/mL--much more than 0.11 mg/mL.  According to PubMed, Librium is much more soluble in alcohol--20 mg/mL at 25 deg C.  I think I might ask the author about the discrepancy.  First, I will wait and see if he gets back to me about the questions on Xanax. Most likely he is on break at this time of the year.

 

Yes, there is a liquid X and Gardener is using it.   The list of ingredients is available online.  All the liquid versions of these drugs seem to use combinations of propylene glycol, polyethylene glycol, alcohol, and water and I don't think the liquid X is any different, although I'm not sure which specific mixture it is.  PG seems to be the one that is always there, as well as water.  Jouyban has also published about benzo solubility in PG/water mixtures, so that is actually another alternative for people I would think.  A totally non-alcohol alternative.  I think pharmacies carry PG and it can also be ordered online.

 

What is pKa?

 

The PubMed number of 20mg/ml for Librium agrees with Jouyban, although he found it goes well above this when a little water is mixed in.  But the 2mg/ml water number does not agree at all.  2mg/ml would explain why people have success with L in just plain water, but on the other hand we have Jouyban as a very reliable source.  And look at the L data points with low ethanol content.  They also point to very low L solubility as we would not expect it to suddenly jump to 2mg/ml at zero.

 

One data point I question is Jouyban's 40% lorazepam number.  He has it as 3.51mg/ml, but on the graph it seems like it should be more like 2mg/ml to make the trend "smooth and consistent."  But who knows, it might be right.

 

I'm reading my package insert:

active ingredient: alprazolam

other ingredients: propylene glycol,succinct acid disodium salt, and water

 

Best scan I could get:

 

http://jgardnerscollection.weebly.com/uploads/5/6/6/2/56621493/9719331_orig.jpg

[[ga...]]

Anyone kno about liquid clonazepam????

 

I think that's one you have to have compounded or else make your own dilution. If you want to dilute, plenty of dilution gurus on here will help you with that if you give them your details.

[[an...]]

Gardner,

 

I am sorry, but my quote ended up in your quote. 

 

I do have a question.  How do you insert images into a post?

 

Thanks

 

Anne

[[ga...]]

Gardner,

 

I am sorry, but my quote ended up in your quote. 

 

I do have a question.  How do you insert images into a post?

 

Thanks

 

Anne

 

The only way I know is to copy the image url off the web (I store my photos on weebly) and then click on that little Mona Lisa icon above the smilies and insert the url between the brackets that appear.

[[ga...]]

FYI: You can buy food grade propylene glycol on amazon.

 

Question: Anybody know what the salt in the intensol is for?

[Guest [Ma...]]

Okay need some reassurance, thoughts, encouragement, strategies  etc .......again.

Please forgive if repetitive; benzo brain lack of confidence has set in.

And, I understand our uniqueness on this journey and your thoughts will be read with that understanding.

 

My symptoms are untenable; my back feels, literally, broken; updosing seems like a huge failure; I'm stuck.

 

Help.

I see my Pdoc next week and have many options to consider. Continue crossing over completely to V, requesting liquid X, updosing on X or V. My brain has shut down. It's very difficult to plan effectively through this pain.

 

Help.

 

Thank you in advance,

Marija

 

I'm so sorry you're in such a bad spot, Marija. 

 

I confess I don't understand your signature, so I'm hesitant to offer advice. Are you micro-tapering or holding? If holding, for how long?

 

Since you are on Xanax, you might want to check out the Xanax support blog. I've gotten good Xanax advice there.

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=96799.0;topicseen

 

When I was looking for advice about crossing over to Librium, I did get some help on the Substitution Taper Plan board. http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?board=61.0

I do remember reading that crossing over and getting off of Xanax entirely has helped some people tremendously. I suggest asking over there about that. Make your title clear to attract the right people, such as "Cross from X to V helpful or not?" I know there's a protocol for crossing over and I'm sure they can give advice about that. I haven't even started yet, so I don't know much else.

 

Personally, I up-dosed a little at two points, but I am hesitant to give advice about up-dosing. I don't know if my situation is anything like yours. The Withdrawal Support board is where I investigated up-dosing. http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?board=145.0 I recall that it helped some people.

 

Updosing is not a failure. It is a bump in the road! If it is what your brain needs right now, it is a positive step. But I encourage you to investigate this on the Withdrawal Support board before you make your decision. I am no expert on up-dosing!

 

Sometimes the answer is just wait. Waiting is hard when the symptoms are bad. I found recovery-road.org very helpful regarding waiting it out, especially this page.

http://www.recovery-road.org/acceptance

 

Wishing you a better day today.

Gardener

 

Hi Marija,

 

I am so sorry to hear you are not doing well.  Gardener gave you some good advice.  I am sure there are many on those boards that can offer advice from their experience with Xanax.

 

I hope that you can find a solution to this soon.

Anne

 

Anne and Gardener,

 

Thank you for commenting.

I will update my signature for clarity.

Currently I am holding at 0.642 X and 4 mg V

I updosed from 0.62 X to 0.64 X (2.5%) on 6/16 and have been holding since.

Some of the burning pain has resolved but was replaced by the deep, deep spin & sacrum pain.

The last dose I felt functional (but symptomatic ) was .8 mg X (I keep a daily journal)

 

Since december - I have been tapering 2.5% X every 7-10 days.

Since  March - 2.5% every 14 days

June - hit with extreme symptoms. Updosed to .642 and holding.

 

So yes, I am micro tapering but not daily. I have an opportunity next week to discuss obtaining liquid X to move forward with daily, MT.

 

Thanks!

 

[[an...]]

FYI: You can buy food grade propylene glycol on amazon.

 

Question: Anybody know what the salt in the intensol is for?

 

It is used to regulate the pH of the solution.

 

Thank you for the instructions on how to post images.

[[...]]

I'll take another look at Jouyban's paper tomorrow at work. I will also look up the reference for the water solubility of Librium (the one I found at PubMed).  I am interested in how the 2 mg/mL was determined.

 

Great.  I'm very interested in getting to the bottom of that as well.

 

[[do...]]

anyone want to help me with wafer klonopin? dont know where to begin

[[...]]

I'm reading my package insert:

active ingredient: alprazolam

other ingredients: propylene glycol,succinct acid disodium salt, and water

 

Best scan I could get:

 

http://jgardnerscollection.weebly.com/uploads/5/6/6/2/56621493/9719331_orig.jpg

 

Thanks for this, Gardener.

 

[Guest [Ma...]]

Chemistry question.

 

I've learned that the COA on the alprazolam powder used for compounding my capsules expired in 11/2014. Anyone know if this would affect the stability or efficacy of the drug?  I was good the shelf life is stable for a "period" past the expiration date.

 

Thoughts?

[[ga...]]

FYI: You can buy food grade propylene glycol on amazon.

 

Question: Anybody know what the salt in the intensol is for?

 

It is used to regulate the pH of the solution.

 

Thank you for the instructions on how to post images.

 

Thanks. Why do they need to regulate the pH? And am I messing that up when I dilute? Does it matter?

[[ga...]]

 

Anne and Gardener,

 

Thank you for commenting.

I will update my signature for clarity.

Currently I am holding at 0.642 X and 4 mg V

I updosed from 0.62 X to 0.64 X (2.5%) on 6/16 and have been holding since.

Some of the burning pain has resolved but was replaced by the deep, deep spin & sacrum pain.

The last dose I felt functional (but symptomatic ) was .8 mg X (I keep a daily journal)

 

Since december - I have been tapering 2.5% X every 7-10 days.

Since  March - 2.5% every 14 days

June - hit with extreme symptoms. Updosed to .642 and holding.

 

So yes, I am micro tapering but not daily. I have an opportunity next week to discuss obtaining liquid X to move forward with daily, MT.

 

Thanks!

 

Well, here's what happened to me. I was hit with extreme symptoms and up dosed slightly in May. I held for awhile. I still felt mostly awful. I figured as long as I felt awful anyway, I may as well try micro-tapering very slowly so at least I wasn't feeling awful for nothing. So I diluted and started about 3 weeks ago. I still felt mostly awful, but had some less-awful periods. I had a window the other day for no apparent reason. Back to constantly on edge and some pain today, but still much better than I was when I crashed in May. I usually cut .002mg every other day. Sometimes I wait 3 days. Trying to get brave enough to try to cut every day because I don't want this to take 2 years! Also considering crossing over to Librium. Dosing Xanax 6 times a day is a pain in the you-know-what! 

 

 

[[ga...]]

I'm reading my package insert:

active ingredient: alprazolam

other ingredients: propylene glycol,succinct acid disodium salt, and water

 

Best scan I could get:

 

http://jgardnerscollection.weebly.com/uploads/5/6/6/2/56621493/9719331_orig.jpg

 

Thanks for this, Gardener.

 

No problem. I figured somebody would know what that little molecule diagram meant! I mean besides that it's a molecule.

[[an...]]

FYI: You can buy food grade propylene glycol on amazon.

 

Question: Anybody know what the salt in the intensol is for?

 

It is used to regulate the pH of the solution.

 

Thank you for the instructions on how to post images.

 

Thanks. Why do they need to regulate the pH? And am I messing that up when I dilute? Does it matter?

 

Gardner,

 

No, do not worry about diluting it. The salt is used to maintain the acidity of the solution. It will also act as a preservative. Keeps the solution stable. Your solution is probably good for several months. But if using just plain water or a little bit of alcohol, the liquid is only good for a week or so.

[[ga...]]

I'll take another look at Jouyban's paper tomorrow at work. I will also look up the reference for the water solubility of Librium (the one I found at PubMed).  I am interested in how the 2 mg/mL was determined.

 

Great.  I'm very interested in getting to the bottom of that as well.

 

I'm very interested in the Librium!

[[ga...]]

FYI: You can buy food grade propylene glycol on amazon.

 

Question: Anybody know what the salt in the intensol is for?

 

It is used to regulate the pH of the solution.

 

Thank you for the instructions on how to post images.

 

Thanks. Why do they need to regulate the pH? And am I messing that up when I dilute? Does it matter?

 

Gardner,

 

No, do not worry about diluting it. The salt is used to maintain the acidity of the solution. It will also act as a preservative. Keeps the solution stable. Your solution is probably good for several months. But if using just plain water or a little bit of alcohol, the liquid is only good for a week or so.

 

I think mine sits around more like the "or so." 

[[ga...]]

anyone want to help me with wafer klonopin? dont know where to begin

 

I have heard the term wafer mentioned regarding meds, but I don't know what it means.

 

[Guest [Ma...]]

 

Anne and Gardener,

 

Thank you for commenting.

I will update my signature for clarity.

Currently I am holding at 0.642 X and 4 mg V

I updosed from 0.62 X to 0.64 X (2.5%) on 6/16 and have been holding since.

Some of the burning pain has resolved but was replaced by the deep, deep spin & sacrum pain.

The last dose I felt functional (but symptomatic ) was .8 mg X (I keep a daily journal)

 

Since december - I have been tapering 2.5% X every 7-10 days.

Since  March - 2.5% every 14 days

June - hit with extreme symptoms. Updosed to .642 and holding.

 

So yes, I am micro tapering but not daily. I have an opportunity next week to discuss obtaining liquid X to move forward with daily, MT.

 

Thanks!

 

Well, here's what happened to me. I was hit with extreme symptoms and up dosed slightly in May. I held for awhile. I still felt mostly awful. I figured as long as I felt awful anyway, I may as well try micro-tapering very slowly so at least I wasn't feeling awful for nothing. So I diluted and started about 3 weeks ago. I still felt mostly awful, but had some less-awful periods. I had a window the other day for no apparent reason. Back to constantly on edge and some pain today, but still much better than I was when I crashed in May. I usually cut .002mg every other day. Sometimes I wait 3 days. Trying to get brave enough to try to cut every day because I don't want this to take 2 years! Also considering crossing over to Librium. Dosing Xanax 6 times a day is a pain in the you-know-what! 

 

Gardener,

Yup, sounds like we are hoeing in the same hole!

Sounds like you haven't found additional stability and functionality with the MT?

Just so hard to know.

Well, I will try substituting .107 mg of liquid X, at bedtime, next week and see what my body says.

 

🌷

[[ga...]]

 

Anne and Gardener,

 

Thank you for commenting.

I will update my signature for clarity.

Currently I am holding at 0.642 X and 4 mg V

I updosed from 0.62 X to 0.64 X (2.5%) on 6/16 and have been holding since.

Some of the burning pain has resolved but was replaced by the deep, deep spin & sacrum pain.

The last dose I felt functional (but symptomatic ) was .8 mg X (I keep a daily journal)

 

Since december - I have been tapering 2.5% X every 7-10 days.

Since  March - 2.5% every 14 days

June - hit with extreme symptoms. Updosed to .642 and holding.

 

So yes, I am micro tapering but not daily. I have an opportunity next week to discuss obtaining liquid X to move forward with daily, MT.

 

Thanks!

 

Well, here's what happened to me. I was hit with extreme symptoms and up dosed slightly in May. I held for awhile. I still felt mostly awful. I figured as long as I felt awful anyway, I may as well try micro-tapering very slowly so at least I wasn't feeling awful for nothing. So I diluted and started about 3 weeks ago. I still felt mostly awful, but had some less-awful periods. I had a window the other day for no apparent reason. Back to constantly on edge and some pain today, but still much better than I was when I crashed in May. I usually cut .002mg every other day. Sometimes I wait 3 days. Trying to get brave enough to try to cut every day because I don't want this to take 2 years! Also considering crossing over to Librium. Dosing Xanax 6 times a day is a pain in the you-know-what! 

 

Gardener,

Yup, sounds like we are hoeing in the same hole!

Sounds like you haven't found additional stability and functionality with the MT?

Just so hard to know.

Well, I will try substituting .107 mg of liquid X, at bedtime, next week and see what my body says.

 

🌷

 

Well, I'm not worse and I did have a window!

[Guest [Ma...]]

 

Anne and Gardener,

 

Thank you for commenting.

I will update my signature for clarity.

Currently I am holding at 0.642 X and 4 mg V

I updosed from 0.62 X to 0.64 X (2.5%) on 6/16 and have been holding since.

Some of the burning pain has resolved but was replaced by the deep, deep spin & sacrum pain.

The last dose I felt functional (but symptomatic ) was .8 mg X (I keep a daily journal)

 

Since december - I have been tapering 2.5% X every 7-10 days.

Since  March - 2.5% every 14 days

June - hit with extreme symptoms. Updosed to .642 and holding.

 

So yes, I am micro tapering but not daily. I have an opportunity next week to discuss obtaining liquid X to move forward with daily, MT.

 

Thanks!

 

Well, here's what happened to me. I was hit with extreme symptoms and up dosed slightly in May. I held for awhile. I still felt mostly awful. I figured as long as I felt awful anyway, I may as well try micro-tapering very slowly so at least I wasn't feeling awful for nothing. So I diluted and started about 3 weeks ago. I still felt mostly awful, but had some less-awful periods. I had a window the other day for no apparent reason. Back to constantly on edge and some pain today, but still much better than I was when I crashed in May. I usually cut .002mg every other day. Sometimes I wait 3 days. Trying to get brave enough to try to cut every day because I don't want this to take 2 years! Also considering crossing over to Librium. Dosing Xanax 6 times a day is a pain in the you-know-what! 

 

Gardener,

Yup, sounds like we are hoeing in the same hole!

Sounds like you haven't found additional stability and functionality with the MT?

Just so hard to know.

Well, I will try substituting .107 mg of liquid X, at bedtime, next week and see what my body says.

 

🌷

 

Well, I'm not worse and I did have a window!

 

Oh I'm sorry!!!  🌻🌹🌷. Peace offering!!

[[ga...]]

 

Anne and Gardener,

 

Thank you for commenting.

I will update my signature for clarity.

Currently I am holding at 0.642 X and 4 mg V

I updosed from 0.62 X to 0.64 X (2.5%) on 6/16 and have been holding since.

Some of the burning pain has resolved but was replaced by the deep, deep spin & sacrum pain.

The last dose I felt functional (but symptomatic ) was .8 mg X (I keep a daily journal)

 

Since december - I have been tapering 2.5% X every 7-10 days.

Since  March - 2.5% every 14 days

June - hit with extreme symptoms. Updosed to .642 and holding.

 

So yes, I am micro tapering but not daily. I have an opportunity next week to discuss obtaining liquid X to move forward with daily, MT.

 

Thanks!

 

Well, here's what happened to me. I was hit with extreme symptoms and up dosed slightly in May. I held for awhile. I still felt mostly awful. I figured as long as I felt awful anyway, I may as well try micro-tapering very slowly so at least I wasn't feeling awful for nothing. So I diluted and started about 3 weeks ago. I still felt mostly awful, but had some less-awful periods. I had a window the other day for no apparent reason. Back to constantly on edge and some pain today, but still much better than I was when I crashed in May. I usually cut .002mg every other day. Sometimes I wait 3 days. Trying to get brave enough to try to cut every day because I don't want this to take 2 years! Also considering crossing over to Librium. Dosing Xanax 6 times a day is a pain in the you-know-what! 

 

Gardener,

Yup, sounds like we are hoeing in the same hole!

Sounds like you haven't found additional stability and functionality with the MT?

Just so hard to know.

Well, I will try substituting .107 mg of liquid X, at bedtime, next week and see what my body says.

 

🌷

 

Well, I'm not worse and I did have a window!

 

Oh I'm sorry!!!  🌻🌹🌷. Peace offering!!

 

Um, sorry for what? But I'll take the flowers!

[[ga...]]

 

Big announcement from Sharkey on the blog!!

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=137928.130

[[bu...]]

 

Big announcement from Sharkey on the blog!!

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=137928.130

 

:)

[[do...]]

Hello dear buddies,

 

Hope all is well with your tapers.

 

I am only on day 2 of my taper and am having sort of extreme withdrawal symptoms, like jaw and arms and legs stiff, irritability and of course tinnitus.

 

Do you think that I am making my solution incorrectly?

 

I only have a 5ml oral syringe and was wondering can I still make cuts efficiently with it.  When you say on day 1 to cut to 99.5 (the .5 equals 1/2 ml.....right).  Would it be easier if I purchased a 1ml syringe.

 

I realize that probably am one of the "dumb ones."  But I am honestly confused.

 

Thanks,

doodle dog

 

Doodle did hold at full dose? How long?

 

Yes, .5ml is 1/2 a ml and you can use the 5ml syringe.

 

Briefly tell me how you make your solution.

 

Sharkey

 

Hello Sharkey,

 

I held at the full dose for 8 days.

 

I make a 2 day solution with the .5 mg pill dissolved in 2 ml vodka,  then add 198 ml water.

 

I have been working with just the one bottle to draw out my doses.  On Monday measured out 50 ml and removed the .5 ml from my morning dose.  On Tuesday did the same removing 1 ml from my morning dose.  Today I was to remove 1.5 ml so I took 1 ml from morning dose and thought that I would remove the remainder from my night time dose.

 

Perhaps my problem is that I need more containers to work with.....first of all.  And second I should remove the cut from the entire daily amount of 100 ml and divide my 2 doses evenly.

 

Today I had a pretty bad day and probably will not cut the other .5 ml this evening.

 

Or maybe I just need to stay on my full dose in liquids for a few more day before removing anything.

 

Sorry to be such a pain.  Hope I was brief enough.

 

Thanks so much.

doodle dog

 

Yes,  I would definitely suggest holding at full dose for a while longer.

 

ditto, doodle dog. (try saying that five times fast) I'd hold your full dose awhile longer until your body gets used to the liquid. hang in there, buddy. You can do this! we are all here for you.

 

hugs,

shannon

 

Hey Shannon,

 

I will do.  Thanks so much.  Guess I feel sort of defeated.  I had no idea to what degree ativan had a hold of my psyche and body.  Very scary.

 

Hope you are doing well.

doodle dog

 

Doodle,

I'm pretty sure we all felt like this when we first started to taper...when we realized how hard it was to do this. I remember when I first decided to get off this, and started to taper and got hit with the worst symptoms, I was FLOORED. I  couldn't believe how hard this was.

 

But I guess I sorta believe in the big-picture-plan kinda thing. I think we are all going thru this so we can help prevent others from even starting this stuff in the future. because of our experiences, we will be able to help countless people. So hang in there, it might be a little bit of time before we are free of these things, but we will get there.

 

hugs, shannon

 

This is so true!  Facing this experience head on can be very intimidating.  And in the beginning can cause a lot of headache and unfortunately increases symptoms in a way that cannot be measured.  ACCEPTANCE at this point is the most important decision you can make.  once you do this it makes the process less painful.  This has been my experience.

 

Stay strong!

sharkey

 

Hey Shannon & Sharkey,

 

Thank you so much for your encouraging words.  Yes, I will accept and face the symptoms head on because it beats the alternative of being on this yucky stuff forever and not being my true self.

 

So glad to know that I am not alone in this battle.

 

With gratitude,

doodle dog