Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[ga...]]

OK, how about this? When I am half way through this bottle of mystery dilution, I make more dilution with the help of someone so we are double checking each other, but only 50ml this time. Then I mix the 2 together and try using that.

 

I feel a bit like I might be out in left field on this, so please chime in!

 

Also, how long is it OK to leave this stuff in dilution? The full strength bottle says for 90 days after opening.

 

I'm thinking maybe don't over-complicate this.  You have to use this batch so use it up.  We don't know if it is too strong or not so assume it is to be safe.  When you get to the next batch and are back to normal strength maybe just hold there instead of cutting.  In fact, you could begin holding early, before the current batch is used up, to get a jump on it and soften or eliminate the blow.

 

You cut at .001mg a day so we know your body will process that amount of healing each day.  You need to find seven days of healing.

 

Another thing you could do is taper this as usual then updose when you begin your next batch to cover any potential shortage.  That might be the best thing to do.  Just do everything as normal for now then when you make the next batch go backward seven days and consider it done.  You'd then keep tapering from there and would not do any holding.  There are different ways to skin this and I'm not sure which is best, but you do have good options.

 

Thanks for these ideas. I am going to copy them over into my progress log so I don't lose them!

[[ga...]]

I put water in the graduated cylinder and then add 1ml dropperfuls of alprazolam trying to make 90% water and 10% alprazolam. I lost count of the dropperfuls. I wasn't sure if I had added 9 or 10 and the liquid wasn't up to the top line on the cylinder (which I think is a bit off in its markings). My son had always done this before, so he knew what it should look like in the cylinder and I didn't. I really thought I had counted 10 dropperfuls but the cylinder said I was short. So I added another dropperful. Now I have diluted liquid to last a couple of weeks. It is either 10% of my original strength or 11% of my original strength. I measure my doses straight from the dilution. I don't use the throw-away method.

 

I will never wait until bedtime to make a dilution again (says the benzo brain).

 

Hey Gardener, even your diluted solution is too strong IMO.  Your X liquid is 1ml=1mg and you dilute it 10X to make it .1mg/ml.  On a 1ml syringe each tick is worth .001mg...that's a lot.  Making your .001mg cut must be hard on the eyes.  I'd dilute that down another 10X.  For 1ml syringes as a general rule we want to be around .1mg/ml Valium equivalent or weaker.  You're at 2mg/ml V equivalent.  Just a suggestion.  I'm sticking my nose in here a bit, but I think it could help.

 

I appreciate your input. My first syringe did have 10 ticks between each tenth mark. You're right. It was impossible to see them. The syringes I use now have half that many, 5 ticks between each tenth mark, and they are easy to see. The plunger has a flat black tip that clearly lines up with each tick. Somebody very smart designed these things.

 

I'm going to have to think over your Valium equivalencies after I have had a good night's sleep!

[[Sy...]]

Hi everyone and especially Builder and sharkey...I just wanted to check in and let you know that I have been following your suggestions going back to May and I am doing well. I can't thank you enough for your kindness and patience in helping me set my taper schedule and supporting me when I got scared or messed up. I don't think I could have done it without you! If all goes well I should be jumping by Thanksgiving...I am looking forward to it. It's great to know that you are there when I need someone's help. All my best to you and hope that all is well. All hail the math gurus!

[[sh...]]

Hi everyone and especially Builder and sharkey...I just wanted to check in and let you know that I have been following your suggestions going back to May and I am doing well. I can't thank you enough for your kindness and patience in helping me set my taper schedule and supporting me when I got scared or messed up. I don't think I could have done it without you! If all goes well I should be jumping by Thanksgiving...I am looking forward to it. It's great to know that you are there when I need someone's help. All my best to you and hope that all is well. All hail the math gurus!

 

This is great news Sydney!  So glad it is working for you.  Definitely keep us posted on your progress.

 

Stay strong!

sharkey

[[ga...]]

Hi everyone and especially Builder and sharkey...I just wanted to check in and let you know that I have been following your suggestions going back to May and I am doing well. I can't thank you enough for your kindness and patience in helping me set my taper schedule and supporting me when I got scared or messed up. I don't think I could have done it without you! If all goes well I should be jumping by Thanksgiving...I am looking forward to it. It's great to know that you are there when I need someone's help. All my best to you and hope that all is well. All hail the math gurus!

 

It's so good to hear from you, Syndney! And especially such good news!

 

I (we) have a micro tapering blog now where many of us hang out and chit chat. http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=137928.msg1848581#msg1848581

Sharkey named it, I set it up, and now it is in full swing. Please come over and join us!

 

Gardener 

[Guest [Ma...]]

Okay need some reassurance, thoughts, encouragement, strategies  etc .......again.

Please forgive if repetitive; benzo brain lack of confidence has set in.

And, I understand our uniqueness on this journey and your thoughts will be read with that understanding.

 

My symptoms are untenable; my back feels, literally, broken; updosing seems like a huge failure; I'm stuck.

 

Help.

I see my Pdoc next week and have many options to consider. Continue crossing over completely to V, requesting liquid X, updosing on X or V. My brain has shut down. It's very difficult to plan effectively through this pain.

 

Help.

 

Thank you in advance,

Marija

 

[[ga...]]

Okay need some reassurance, thoughts, encouragement, strategies  etc .......again.

Please forgive if repetitive; benzo brain lack of confidence has set in.

And, I understand our uniqueness on this journey and your thoughts will be read with that understanding.

 

My symptoms are untenable; my back feels, literally, broken; updosing seems like a huge failure; I'm stuck.

 

Help.

I see my Pdoc next week and have many options to consider. Continue crossing over completely to V, requesting liquid X, updosing on X or V. My brain has shut down. It's very difficult to plan effectively through this pain.

 

Help.

 

Thank you in advance,

Marija

 

I'm so sorry you're in such a bad spot, Marija. 

 

I confess I don't understand your signature, so I'm hesitant to offer advice. Are you micro-tapering or holding? If holding, for how long?

 

Since you are on Xanax, you might want to check out the Xanax support blog. I've gotten good Xanax advice there.

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=96799.0;topicseen

 

When I was looking for advice about crossing over to Librium, I did get some help on the Substitution Taper Plan board. http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?board=61.0

I do remember reading that crossing over and getting off of Xanax entirely has helped some people tremendously. I suggest asking over there about that. Make your title clear to attract the right people, such as "Cross from X to V helpful or not?" I know there's a protocol for crossing over and I'm sure they can give advice about that. I haven't even started yet, so I don't know much else.

 

Personally, I up-dosed a little at two points, but I am hesitant to give advice about up-dosing. I don't know if my situation is anything like yours. The Withdrawal Support board is where I investigated up-dosing. http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?board=145.0 I recall that it helped some people.

 

Updosing is not a failure. It is a bump in the road! If it is what your brain needs right now, it is a positive step. But I encourage you to investigate this on the Withdrawal Support board before you make your decision. I am no expert on up-dosing!

 

Sometimes the answer is just wait. Waiting is hard when the symptoms are bad. I found recovery-road.org very helpful regarding waiting it out, especially this page.

http://www.recovery-road.org/acceptance

 

Wishing you a better day today.

Gardener

[[an...]]

Quote from the BB fellow who chose to leave the MT thread. I do not wish to stir up the issue again, I just want to know if there is any validity to his comment.  I use 2ml of Vodka to dissolve my 1mg of clonazepam.  I am ok, but a bit more symptomatic.  Anxiety and feeling uneasy. I am on day 13 of full dose using liquid. Are any of you chemists?  Do you realize that VODKA can change the chemical structure of the pills your diluting? 

 

This is my last post here, i hope you all will look into the medical advice youre giving people about mixing alcohol with benzos.  Its not very smart.

 

Thanks, Shaani

 

Hi Shaani,

 

Builder and SG are correct. The ethanol is just a solvent. It will not change the chemical structure of the medicine. There is no chemical reaction occurring between the ethanol and the benzo. For IV and liquid solutions, they use propylene glycol (a dialcohol) and sometimes ethanol to keep the medication in solution. These are safe solvents that are used to dissolve many different types of drugs.  The only way the chemical structure can be changed is via a chemical reaction. As Builder said, the process of dissolving a substance into a solvent  is a physical process--no chemical reaction occurs. If I wanted to react ethanol with the benzo, I could do it in the lab. But, I would need several more substances in order to do this--substances that are not found in plain old ethanol and water or even in your home. You can rest assured that no chemical reaction is taking place.

 

An example is when table salt (NaCl) dissolves in water.  The reason the NaCl dissolves is because of the attractions between the water molecules and the sodium and chloride ions. When you put the salt in water it dissolves--you cannot see it.  Water molecules surround the sodium and chloride ions because of the attractions. But, if I evaporate the water by heating, I am left with good old solid table salt. No chemical reaction occurred.

 

As far as feeling some symptoms after you switched to liquid, this is most likely due to the faster absorption of the drug. Your body will absorb the drug faster because it is already dissolved when you take it. From what I have read, most get used to this after a week or so. Some people do not even notice a difference, but some of us are more sensitive. 

 

I only use water because this is how I have done it in the past, and it works for me.  The pill does not dissolve in the water. I crush it before adding to the water and then make sure I shake it very well and then quickly measure my dose.  A couple of weeks ago, I started dissolving the pill into a small amount of alcohol.  I ended up experiencing symtpoms for several days (these could have been caused by lack of sleep last Sunday evening).  Another reason for this could have been due to the faster absorption because the medicine was dissolved. Most likely I would have gotten used to it after a few more days, but I decided to go back to the water.  I am used to working with mixtures so working with the water is not a problem for me. I have the technique down. 

 

Congratulations on the new job.  You could possibly hold for a while until you have been on the job for a few weeks. In my experience, stress can exacerbate symptoms.

 

Good luck.  I hope this helps with any doubts you might have concerning any chemical interactions between the benzo and the ethanol.

Anne

[[an...]]

Hi everyone and especially Builder and sharkey...I just wanted to check in and let you know that I have been following your suggestions going back to May and I am doing well. I can't thank you enough for your kindness and patience in helping me set my taper schedule and supporting me when I got scared or messed up. I don't think I could have done it without you! If all goes well I should be jumping by Thanksgiving...I am looking forward to it. It's great to know that you are there when I need someone's help. All my best to you and hope that all is well. All hail the math gurus!

 

Sydney,

 

I am so happy this is working for you!! 

 

Anne

[[an...]]

Hi SG,

 

I read the papers, and the data looks good.  The table you made with the converted solubility units is great stuff!! I also found more papers by the same author and others, but as you said no data on alprazolam. It surprises me because many people are on Xanax. I have emailed the author to ask about his thoughts on the solubility of alprazolam. So far I have not heard anything from him--he could be taking a summer break.  I will email again this coming week.

 

Anne

[[an...]]

First, instead of cutting .002mg every other day I'd cut .001mg every day.  Same rate, but an improvement in keeping benzo in your body to help you until it is ready to be removed.

 

I don't think those full strength doses are doing you any favors. Very concentrated.  Slight errors in measurement will make a difference. I'd stop that if I were you.  I'd dilute it all and use two syringes or whatever at night.  And take the cut first from the daily total, then split it into six.  That's what I would do anyway.

 

:thumbsup:

 

I agree.  The slightest error when working with these very small volumes will result in a very large error. You will definitely feel it.

[[ga...]]

First, instead of cutting .002mg every other day I'd cut .001mg every day.  Same rate, but an improvement in keeping benzo in your body to help you until it is ready to be removed.

 

I don't think those full strength doses are doing you any favors. Very concentrated.  Slight errors in measurement will make a difference. I'd stop that if I were you.  I'd dilute it all and use two syringes or whatever at night.  And take the cut first from the daily total, then split it into six.  That's what I would do anyway.

 

:thumbsup:

 

I agree.  The slightest error when working with these very small volumes will result in a very large error. You will definitely feel it.

 

OK, OK, y'all win! I'm switching to all dilution today! 

 

And thank you so much, Anne, for coming in and correcting the misinformation posted earlier about dissolving meds in alcohol. 

[[...]]

Hi SG,

 

I read the papers, and the data looks good.  The table you made with the converted solubility units is great stuff!! I also found more papers by the same author and others, but as you said no data on alprazolam. It surprises me because many people are on Xanax. I have emailed the author to ask about his thoughts on the solubility of alprazolam. So far I have not heard anything from him--he could be taking a summer break.  I will email again this coming week.

 

Anne

 

Good.  I'm glad you read them.  I was kind of shaky converting those units as they were quite foreign to me as I am not used to working with moles, mole fractions, and all that.  But I think I did eventually get it right.

 

Great that you are trying to contact the author.  If he doesn't have data he might know where it can be found.  Xanax is puzzling.  I would think interest in its solubility would be high.  Another thing that surprised me was his Librium data.  Librium has always been treated by taperers as water soluble and people use plain water to dilute it.  But his data indicates its  solubility is not much better than the others at .11mg/ml.  Very poor.

[[an...]]

Hi SG,

 

I read the papers, and the data looks good.  The table you made with the converted solubility units is great stuff!! I also found more papers by the same author and others, but as you said no data on alprazolam. It surprises me because many people are on Xanax. I have emailed the author to ask about his thoughts on the solubility of alprazolam. So far I have not heard anything from him--he could be taking a summer break.  I will email again this coming week.

 

Anne

 

 

Good.  I'm glad you read them.  I was kind of shaky converting those units as they were quite foreign to me as I am not used to working with moles, mole fractions, and all that.  But I think I did eventually get it right.

 

Great that you are trying to contact the author.  If he doesn't have data he might know where it can be found.  Xanax is puzzling.  I would think interest in its solubility would be high.  Another thing that surprised me was his Librium data.  Librium has always been treated by taperers as water soluble and people use plain water to dilute it.  But his data indicates its  solubility is not much better than the others at .11mg/ml.  Very poor.

 

I agree. He might be able to direct us to other studies. Is there a liquid formulation of Xanax available? 

 

I will look again at the author's  Librium data tomorow.  From what you said it contradicts what is found in the literature. I just took a quick look on PubMed and Librium has a pKa of 4.8--same as acetic acid (lorazepam has a pKa of 13). The water solubility is reported at 2000 mg/L which would be 2 mg/mL--much more than 0.11 mg/mL.  According to PubMed, Librium is much more soluble in alcohol--20 mg/mL at 25 deg C.  I think I might ask the author about the discrepancy.  First, I will wait and see if he gets back to me about the questions on Xanax. Most likely he is on break at this time of the year.

 

[[an...]]

Okay need some reassurance, thoughts, encouragement, strategies  etc .......again.

Please forgive if repetitive; benzo brain lack of confidence has set in.

And, I understand our uniqueness on this journey and your thoughts will be read with that understanding.

 

My symptoms are untenable; my back feels, literally, broken; updosing seems like a huge failure; I'm stuck.

 

Help.

I see my Pdoc next week and have many options to consider. Continue crossing over completely to V, requesting liquid X, updosing on X or V. My brain has shut down. It's very difficult to plan effectively through this pain.

 

Help.

 

Thank you in advance,

Marija

 

I'm so sorry you're in such a bad spot, Marija. 

 

I confess I don't understand your signature, so I'm hesitant to offer advice. Are you micro-tapering or holding? If holding, for how long?

 

Since you are on Xanax, you might want to check out the Xanax support blog. I've gotten good Xanax advice there.

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=96799.0;topicseen

 

When I was looking for advice about crossing over to Librium, I did get some help on the Substitution Taper Plan board. http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?board=61.0

I do remember reading that crossing over and getting off of Xanax entirely has helped some people tremendously. I suggest asking over there about that. Make your title clear to attract the right people, such as "Cross from X to V helpful or not?" I know there's a protocol for crossing over and I'm sure they can give advice about that. I haven't even started yet, so I don't know much else.

 

Personally, I up-dosed a little at two points, but I am hesitant to give advice about up-dosing. I don't know if my situation is anything like yours. The Withdrawal Support board is where I investigated up-dosing. http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?board=145.0 I recall that it helped some people.

 

Updosing is not a failure. It is a bump in the road! If it is what your brain needs right now, it is a positive step. But I encourage you to investigate this on the Withdrawal Support board before you make your decision. I am no expert on up-dosing!

 

Sometimes the answer is just wait. Waiting is hard when the symptoms are bad. I found recovery-road.org very helpful regarding waiting it out, especially this page.

http://www.recovery-road.org/acceptance

 

Wishing you a better day today.

Gardener

 

Hi Marija,

 

I am so sorry to hear you are not doing well.  Gardener gave you some good advice.  I am sure there are many on those boards that can offer advice from their experience with Xanax.

 

I hope that you can find a solution to this soon.

Anne

[[We...]]

Just a brief update. Today is my third day of MT using a 400ml solution and things have really smoothed out. I feel so much more stable with less W/D s/sx's. Again I would like to thank those who encouraged the use of a larger solution, you know who you are . I have no doubt that this is a result of much improved accuracy. I did have some of my previous prescription of Xanax so I used that and will try to slowly change over to this new manufacturer (in case that had contributed a little to feeling crappy a few days ago)

 

To those struggling, never give up, you will find a way through this, just keep trying day by day. Lean on this support thread to see you through- you will find love, encouragement, acceptance, kindness, understanding and more.

 

Yay! this is great news!

[[We...]]

Okay need some reassurance, thoughts, encouragement, strategies  etc .......again.

Please forgive if repetitive; benzo brain lack of confidence has set in.

And, I understand our uniqueness on this journey and your thoughts will be read with that understanding.

 

My symptoms are untenable; my back feels, literally, broken; updosing seems like a huge failure; I'm stuck.

 

Help.

I see my Pdoc next week and have many options to consider. Continue crossing over completely to V, requesting liquid X, updosing on X or V. My brain has shut down. It's very difficult to plan effectively through this pain.

 

Help.

 

Thank you in advance,

Marija

 

I'm so sorry you're in such a bad spot, Marija. 

 

I confess I don't understand your signature, so I'm hesitant to offer advice. Are you micro-tapering or holding? If holding, for how long?

 

Since you are on Xanax, you might want to check out the Xanax support blog. I've gotten good Xanax advice there.

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=96799.0;topicseen

 

When I was looking for advice about crossing over to Librium, I did get some help on the Substitution Taper Plan board. http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?board=61.0

I do remember reading that crossing over and getting off of Xanax entirely has helped some people tremendously. I suggest asking over there about that. Make your title clear to attract the right people, such as "Cross from X to V helpful or not?" I know there's a protocol for crossing over and I'm sure they can give advice about that. I haven't even started yet, so I don't know much else.

 

Personally, I up-dosed a little at two points, but I am hesitant to give advice about up-dosing. I don't know if my situation is anything like yours. The Withdrawal Support board is where I investigated up-dosing. http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?board=145.0 I recall that it helped some people.

 

Updosing is not a failure. It is a bump in the road! If it is what your brain needs right now, it is a positive step. But I encourage you to investigate this on the Withdrawal Support board before you make your decision. I am no expert on up-dosing!

 

Sometimes the answer is just wait. Waiting is hard when the symptoms are bad. I found recovery-road.org very helpful regarding waiting it out, especially this page.

http://www.recovery-road.org/acceptance

 

Wishing you a better day today.

Gardener

 

Hi Marija,

 

I am so sorry to hear you are not doing well.  Gardener gave you some good advice.  I am sure there are many on those boards that can offer advice from their experience with Xanax.

 

I hope that you can find a solution to this soon.

Anne

 

Hi Marija,

 

I'm so sorry you are feeling so bad You're signature doesn't really say what you are doing in terms of cut and hold or microtaper, liquid, solid etc etc. I agree going to the Xanax forum would be helpful. but maybe if you reminded us what you are doing we could offer some help.

 

hugs

shannnon

[[Sh...]]

 

Hi Shaani,

Builder and SG are correct. The ethanol is just a solvent. It will not change the chemical structure of the medicine. There is no chemical reaction occurring between the ethanol and the benzo. For IV and liquid solutions, they use propylene glycol (a dialcohol) and sometimes ethanol to keep the medication in solution. These are safe solvents that are used to dissolve many different types of drugs.  The only way the chemical structure can be changed is via a chemical reaction. As Builder said, the process of dissolving a substance into a solvent  is a physical process--no chemical reaction occurs. If I wanted to react ethanol with the benzo, I could do it in the lab. But, I would need several more substances in order to do this--substances that are not found in plain old ethanol and water or even in your home. You can rest assured that no chemical reaction is taking place.

 

An example is when table salt (NaCl) dissolves in water.  The reason the NaCl dissolves is because of the attractions between the water molecules and the sodium and chloride ions. When you put the salt in water it dissolves--you cannot see it.  Water molecules surround the sodium and chloride ions because of the attractions. But, if I evaporate the water by heating, I am left with good old solid table salt. No chemical reaction occurred.

 

As far as feeling some symptoms after you switched to liquid, this is most likely due to the faster absorption of the drug. Your body will absorb the drug faster because it is already dissolved when you take it. From what I have read, most get used to this after a week or so. Some people do not even notice a difference, but some of us are more sensitive. 

 

I only use water because this is how I have done it in the past, and it works for me.  The pill does not dissolve in the water. I crush it before adding to the water and then make sure I shake it very well and then quickly measure my dose.  A couple of weeks ago, I started dissolving the pill into a small amount of alcohol.  I ended up experiencing symtpoms for several days (these could have been caused by lack of sleep last Sunday evening).  Another reason for this could have been due to the faster absorption because the medicine was dissolved. Most likely I would have gotten used to it after a few more days, but I decided to go back to the water.  I am used to working with mixtures so working with the water is not a problem for me. I have the technique down. 

 

Congratulations on the new job.  You could possibly hold for a while until you have been on the job for a few weeks. In my experience, stress can exacerbate symptoms.

 

Good luck.  I hope this helps with any doubts you might have concerning any chemical interactions between the benzo and the ethanol.

Anne

Thanks Anne, This does help. I am 14 days out on full dose liquid and having some symptoms.  I start work in 2 weeks and although I do not want to be on this med any longer than I must,  being functional is critical.  I will hold and be patient. I do not want to taper and get slammed.  .25ml is slow enough per Sharkey. I will try to time the taper so any sx may hit on a long weekend. If that is possible. Again, thanks for the response.  You guys are priceless.  Shaani

[[do...]]

Does anyone know if detox or inpatient psychiatric facilities take patients who are micro tapering? I feel like i have lost my mind and in too of that having medical issues from what i believe to be the tapering. 

[[...]]

Good.  I'm glad you read them.  I was kind of shaky converting those units as they were quite foreign to me as I am not used to working with moles, mole fractions, and all that.  But I think I did eventually get it right.

 

Great that you are trying to contact the author.  If he doesn't have data he might know where it can be found.  Xanax is puzzling.  I would think interest in its solubility would be high.  Another thing that surprised me was his Librium data.  Librium has always been treated by taperers as water soluble and people use plain water to dilute it.  But his data indicates its  solubility is not much better than the others at .11mg/ml.  Very poor.

 

I agree. He might be able to direct us to other studies. Is there a liquid formulation of Xanax available? 

 

I will look again at the author's  Librium data tomorow.  From what you said it contradicts what is found in the literature. I just took a quick look on PubMed and Librium has a pKa of 4.8--same as acetic acid (lorazepam has a pKa of 13). The water solubility is reported at 2000 mg/L which would be 2 mg/mL--much more than 0.11 mg/mL.  According to PubMed, Librium is much more soluble in alcohol--20 mg/mL at 25 deg C.  I think I might ask the author about the discrepancy.  First, I will wait and see if he gets back to me about the questions on Xanax. Most likely he is on break at this time of the year.

 

Yes, there is a liquid X and Gardener is using it.   The list of ingredients is available online.  All the liquid versions of these drugs seem to use combinations of propylene glycol, polyethylene glycol, alcohol, and water and I don't think the liquid X is any different, although I'm not sure which specific mixture it is.  PG seems to be the one that is always there, as well as water.  Jouyban has also published about benzo solubility in PG/water mixtures, so that is actually another alternative for people I would think.  A totally non-alcohol alternative.  I think pharmacies carry PG and it can also be ordered online.

 

What is pKa?

 

The PubMed number of 20mg/ml for Librium agrees with Jouyban, although he found it goes well above this when a little water is mixed in.  But the 2mg/ml water number does not agree at all.  2mg/ml would explain why people have success with L in just plain water, but on the other hand we have Jouyban as a very reliable source.  And look at the L data points with low ethanol content.  They also point to very low L solubility as we would not expect it to suddenly jump to 2mg/ml at zero.

 

One data point I question is Jouyban's 40% lorazepam number.  He has it as 3.51mg/ml, but on the graph it seems like it should be more like 2mg/ml to make the trend "smooth and consistent."  But who knows, it might be right.

[[do...]]

Anyone kno about liquid clonazepam????

[[ga...]]

Does anyone know if detox or inpatient psychiatric facilities take patients who are micro tapering? I feel like i have lost my mind and in too of that having medical issues from what i believe to be the tapering.

 

I'm sorry to say that I have never heard of a psych facility or detox facility in the US that will help with tapering of any kind except rapid. One of our members has been looking for weeks for someone who will help him because his primary doctor cut off his script. The slowest taper any facility would do was all the way to zero in 6 weeks.

 

I have one suggestion that may or may not work. If you really feel you need to go inpatient, just try to stay there to stabilize at the dose you are on. Do not say you are trying to taper. I made the mistake of saying I was trying to taper and they took my med away and tried to c/t me. I asked to be discharged and was discharged AMA. After that, I called several other hospitals after that to ask what the h*** happened and if all hospitals would do that to me. They said it was a roll of the dice whenever you went inpatient. The suggestion I got from one hospital administrator is what I told you. Don't even mention tapering or they may try to rapid taper you. I suggest you try telling them you can't do self care, you can't think straight, you think you messed up your meds and you're losing your mind. You need someone to make sure you take your meds properly and take care of yourself until you feel better. Some psych wards require you to make a direct threat to be admitted, but that has the consequence of making it harder to get back out again.

 

Sorry that I didn't have better news. You are better off finding someone to be of support to you at home. I also recommend the resources on recovery-road.org. There's stuff on there about how a friend or family member can be supportive of someone going through withdrawal. http://www.recovery-road.org/dos-and-donts  I think it is important to get someone like that on board with you. I hope you have someone like that.

 

Wishing you a better tomorrow!

[[do...]]

Does anyone know if detox or inpatient psychiatric facilities take patients who are micro tapering? I feel like i have lost my mind and in too of that having medical issues from what i believe to be the tapering.

 

I'm sorry to say that I have never heard of a psych facility or detox facility in the US that will help with tapering of any kind except rapid. One of our members has been looking for weeks for someone who will help him because his primary doctor cut off his script. The slowest taper any facility would do was all the way to zero in 6 weeks.

 

I have one suggestion that may or may not work. If you really feel you need to go inpatient, just try to stay there to stabilize at the dose you are on. Do not say you are trying to taper. I made the mistake of saying I was trying to taper and they took my med away and tried to c/t me. I asked to be discharged and was discharged AMA. After that, I called several other hospitals after that to ask what the h*** happened and if all hospitals would do that to me. They said it was a roll of the dice whenever you went inpatient. The suggestion I got from one hospital administrator is what I told you. Don't even mention tapering or they may try to rapid taper you. I suggest you try telling them you can't do self care, you can't think straight, you think you messed up your meds and you're losing your mind. You need someone to make sure you take your meds properly and take care of yourself until you feel better. Some psych wards require you to make a direct threat to be admitted, but that has the consequence of making it harder to get back out again.

 

Sorry that I didn't have better news. You are better off finding someone to be of support to you at home. I also recommend the resources on recovery-road.org. There's stuff on there about how a friend or family member can be supportive of someone going through withdrawal. http://www.recovery-road.org/dos-and-donts  I think it is important to get someone like that on board with you. I hope you have someone like that.

 

Wishing you a better tomorrow!

 

Thank you so much for your well written response. I have called around and most places won't take me if I am tapering so you are correct. I basically feel like I need to be medically monitored as well but none of the places that accept my insurance do inpatient detox for benzos, only alcohol or other drugs. In addition since I am such a small dose (.03 - .06mg) most people laugh at me and tell me its all in my head. My family has given up on me because they just can't deal with my horrible WD sxs that have been paralyzing me for over a year now. Every doctor I see says its impossible to WD for more than a month.

 

My epilepsy specialist is the only doctor who has listened and told me that benzos are the worst to WD from and has put patients into a normal medical hospital for tapering which at most lasts 5 days, then the patient ends up back in the medical hospital 2 weeks later for seizures etc due to WD. My epilepsy specialist suggest Onfi which I guess is a new type of benzo now on the market in USA but I dont want to try anything new really since my benzo body is a total wreck.

 

I also did outpatient therapy at a Psychiatry hospital which was beneficial at the time but wasnt going through WD. I had just started benzos and was about 4 months in to using them daily per my psychiatrist. I remember telling them I wanted to do inpatient but told me i didn't qualify because I didn't feel like hurting myself or others and that I am able to manage myself.

I feel damned if i do and damned if i dont. Thanks again for your post.

[[ga...]]

Good.  I'm glad you read them.  I was kind of shaky converting those units as they were quite foreign to me as I am not used to working with moles, mole fractions, and all that.  But I think I did eventually get it right.

 

Great that you are trying to contact the author.  If he doesn't have data he might know where it can be found.  Xanax is puzzling.  I would think interest in its solubility would be high.  Another thing that surprised me was his Librium data.  Librium has always been treated by taperers as water soluble and people use plain water to dilute it.  But his data indicates its  solubility is not much better than the others at .11mg/ml.  Very poor.

 

I agree. He might be able to direct us to other studies. Is there a liquid formulation of Xanax available? 

 

I will look again at the author's  Librium data tomorow.  From what you said it contradicts what is found in the literature. I just took a quick look on PubMed and Librium has a pKa of 4.8--same as acetic acid (lorazepam has a pKa of 13). The water solubility is reported at 2000 mg/L which would be 2 mg/mL--much more than 0.11 mg/mL.  According to PubMed, Librium is much more soluble in alcohol--20 mg/mL at 25 deg C.  I think I might ask the author about the discrepancy.  First, I will wait and see if he gets back to me about the questions on Xanax. Most likely he is on break at this time of the year.

 

Yes, there is a liquid X and Gardener is using it.   The list of ingredients is available online.  All the liquid versions of these drugs seem to use combinations of propylene glycol, polyethylene glycol, alcohol, and water and I don't think the liquid X is any different, although I'm not sure which specific mixture it is.  PG seems to be the one that is always there, as well as water.  Jouyban has also published about benzo solubility in PG/water mixtures, so that is actually another alternative for people I would think.  A totally non-alcohol alternative.  I think pharmacies carry PG and it can also be ordered online.

 

What is pKa?

 

The PubMed number of 20mg/ml for Librium agrees with Jouyban, although he found it goes well above this when a little water is mixed in.  But the 2mg/ml water number does not agree at all.  2mg/ml would explain why people have success with L in just plain water, but on the other hand we have Jouyban as a very reliable source.  And look at the L data points with low ethanol content.  They also point to very low L solubility as we would not expect it to suddenly jump to 2mg/ml at zero.

 

One data point I question is Jouyban's 40% lorazepam number.  He has it as 3.51mg/ml, but on the graph it seems like it should be more like 2mg/ml to make the trend "smooth and consistent."  But who knows, it might be right.

 

I'm reading my package insert:

active ingredient: alprazolam

other ingredients: propylene glycol,succinct acid disodium salt, and water

 

Best scan I could get:

 

http://jgardnerscollection.weebly.com/uploads/5/6/6/2/56621493/9719331_orig.jpg

[[an...]]

Good.  I'm glad you read them.  I was kind of shaky converting those units as they were quite foreign to me as I am not used to working with moles, mole fractions, and all that.  But I think I did eventually get it right.

 

Great that you are trying to contact the author.  If he doesn't have data he might know where it can be found.  Xanax is puzzling.  I would think interest in its solubility would be high.  Another thing that surprised me was his Librium data.  Librium has always been treated by taperers as water soluble and people use plain water to dilute it.  But his data indicates its  solubility is not much better than the others at .11mg/ml.  Very poor.

 

I agree. He might be able to direct us to other studies. Is there a liquid formulation of Xanax available? 

 

I will look again at the author's  Librium data tomorow.  From what you said it contradicts what is found in the literature. I just took a quick look on PubMed and Librium has a pKa of 4.8--same as acetic acid (lorazepam has a pKa of 13). The water solubility is reported at 2000 mg/L which would be 2 mg/mL--much more than 0.11 mg/mL.  According to PubMed, Librium is much more soluble in alcohol--20 mg/mL at 25 deg C.  I think I might ask the author about the discrepancy.  First, I will wait and see if he gets back to me about the questions on Xanax. Most likely he is on break at this time of the year.

 

Yes, there is a liquid X and Gardener is using it.   The list of ingredients is available online.  All the liquid versions of these drugs seem to use combinations of propylene glycol, polyethylene glycol, alcohol, and water and I don't think the liquid X is any different, although I'm not sure which specific mixture it is.  PG seems to be the one that is always there, as well as water.  Jouyban has also published about benzo solubility in PG/water mixtures, so that is actually another alternative for people I would think.  A totally non-alcohol alternative.  I think pharmacies carry PG and it can also be ordered online.

 

What is pKa?

 

The PubMed number of 20mg/ml for Librium agrees with Jouyban, although he found it goes well above this when a little water is mixed in.  But the 2mg/ml water number does not agree at all.  2mg/ml would explain why people have success with L in just plain water, but on the other hand we have Jouyban as a very reliable source.  And look at the L data points with low ethanol content.  They also point to very low L solubility as we would not expect it to suddenly jump to 2mg/ml at zero.

 

One data point I question is Jouyban's 40% lorazepam number.  He has it as 3.51mg/ml, but on the graph it seems like it should be more like 2mg/ml to make the trend "smooth and consistent."  But who knows, it might be right.

 

Oh, I can be so forgetful at times.  Yes, I believe Gardener uses the alprazolam intensol liquid by Roxane.  The inactive ingredient list is PG, succinic acid, succinic acid disodium salt and water.  Ethanol is not listed in the ingredients. It also states that alprazolam is soluble in alcohol but not in water at physiological pH.  Unfortunately, there are no listed references. Yes, I believe that people can easily obtain PG. In fact I think (I could be wrong) I have read on this site that some are using it. I did download Jouyban's paper on the solubility of benzos in PG, but I have not had a chance to read it yet. 

 

Ka is an acid dissociation constant that allows us to compare the relative strengths of acids (or bases). For example acetic acid has Ka of 1.8 x 10^-5 and citric acid has Ka of 7.4 x 10^-4.  Citric acid, a weak acid, is a stronger acid than acetic acid, also a weak acid. The larger the value of Ka, the stronger the acid. pKa is the -log[Ka].  pKa for actetic acid is 4.74 and for citric acid is 3.13. The higher the value of pKa, the weaker the acid. Ethanol has a pKa of about 16--much weaker than acetic acid.

 

I'll take another look at Jouyban's paper tomorrow at work. I will also look up the reference for the water solubility of Librium (the one I found at PubMed).  I am interested in how the 2 mg/mL was determined.