Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[jr...]]

If someone is having a toxic reaction what exactly would that entail? I mean I've been in tolerance wd so long that the meds have done nothing therapeutically for me for a long time but if it were a toxic reaction what exactly would that look like? I've read about people who don't process Klonopin properly and it builds up in their systems during a hold and it makes me wonder especially since updosing, holding for months and reinstating have done nothing for me.

 

I made you a schedule on another board. if you would rather dry cut, I had good success with grinding my pills into a powder and weighing my dose on a scale. I done this for 1/2 of my taper and it worked well when I didnt get in a hurry.

[[Kg...]]

Fuzzy: I would follow JR's schedule, though I didn't use powder I just cut my pills using a gram scale all the way to 0. 

 

I too couldn't take Valium and had disaster happen with liquid- it shouldn't make a difference but for me it did.  I also find for many of us klonopin users for some reason holds make us worse vs. better.  I did a cut and hold taper to start and then a micro taper.  I tried to keep to a consistent pace going off - every time I held I just go worse and worse, when I started cutting again I felt better. I know Gilster and Nomo who used to be on the K board with me also had the same thing happen to them.  We all just kept going and for all of us as we got down on our dose we felt better, not perfect, but better.  Now we are all off and done. 

 

I hope this helps. 

[[...]]

Hi Fuzzy,

 

I know that some people think that liquid doesn't make a difference but I think that our bodies absorb it faster and if you are super sensitive it could make a difference. I know they make some medications into liquids for faster absorption. It should still have the same half life though so I don't know why it would make a difference but obviously for some people it does. We are all so different it's hard to know why we react the way we do.

 

You mentioned that when some people hold the Klonopin builds up in their system. I've never heard of this. Do you have a resource I can check this out on? It sounds really interesting and since I'm holding right now it is also pertinent to my situation.

 

I wish I had more information to help you. I'm glad Kgirl and Cantfly chimed in and have some great info for you.

 

Hugs and healing to you.

[[Ul...]]

I am having anxiety and obsessive thoughts about this micro taper. I've made a few mistakes, am going very slow and am mostly ok. Then I read Ed's blog.  Slaying the dragon.  He did everything right. Jumped after a slow taper and is now in acute hell.  How and why does this happen to certain people? Do most valium dlmt land ok?

My heart goes out to him. I'm so confused because I thought if you do this slow daily taper it avoids acute at the end. Is valium the culprit?  It's almost like he went cold turkey after a year and a half. Is there any other precautions to take to avoid something like that?

 

I wouldn't be discouraged. There are lots of people that do well I imagine. Me, it's one day at a time. My thoughts race a lot... I'm weighing with a jewelry scale, not on the liquid yet. Everyone is different. This is my third taper, (first time on cold turkey) and I've been on almost 10 years straight. I hope to be off by the end of August, but we shall see. One thing I do find helpful, I simply tell myself that I'm gong to be OK and glide through this taper process. I should write that on my bathroom mirror. I will beat this addiction and get off easily and smoothly. Most days I'm really struggling, but I find the self talk helps...    Maybe read some success stories... I should.

 

Have you been on the Long Hold support group? (Sorry, I can't always remember where I "met" people.)  Many of us did a long hold when we got into trouble (for many months) and now are incorporating shorter holds regularly to give our brains and bodies a chance to catch up with healing.

 

I'm with ya, Gard. I'm having to do a short hold every single time I cut, and I'm doing really small cuts. I don't even try to figure out what the percentage is each month because it would be incredibly depressing. Probably be about .0000001230047mg/month Time to completion would be years and years, so I don't need to know that. When I do cut, I just try to tell myself that "I'm one cut closer to jumping". Yee-haaa! Gotta geaux celebrate!

 

Hang tight, sweet lady!!

 

Jeff

 

Yes, one cut closer to jumping! I actually hope we slow people "walk off" rather than jump off. Wouldn't that be a wonderful thing?

 

Walk off, fall off...I'd be happy just to be off! I'm going so slow that hell should be pretty cold by the time I get off the stuff. It's practically as much a psychological battle as it is a physical/physiological one.

 

Have a feel-gooder day!

 

Jeff

 

Jeff, Maybe you belong with us on the Long Hold support group. Also, known as the chicken, turtle, sail, sloth group. Sometimes it seems we are having a contest of who can go the slowest. Maybe you'd win!

 

Gard

 

The contest is already over...I won! If I geaux any slower, I'll be in reverse. I did a rare cut this past Friday and was blown out of the water that night. I'm still tied in knots, and it's Sunday afternoon! Mercy. Wave when you pass by, Gard!!

 

Hugsters,

 

Jeff

[[Ca...]]

If someone is having a toxic reaction what exactly would that entail? I mean I've been in tolerance wd so long that the meds have done nothing therapeutically for me for a long time but if it were a toxic reaction what exactly would that look like? I've read about people who don't process Klonopin properly and it builds up in their systems during a hold and it makes me wonder especially since updosing, holding for months and reinstating have done nothing for me.

Bit of a tough question... -But I guess either the body reacts to the medication from the get go, probably showing physical signs of a reaction, and possibly esculating rather rapidly...

Or, A slower secondary reaction or toxicity builds (perhaps this is where that confusing term tolerance w/d comes in to it)... -which I guess could, in its simplest meaning, explain why most of us want off these meds... -and tapering means doing this without shocking the body too much...

I havnt read of an easy, or quick solution, and would defer to the above posters that have experience with that med...

Just stay strong, you can do this...

 

Tntd... -a cross post... -I wondered about the faster absorbtion aspect, and it was getting discussed at the time I was having issues... so I started dissolving under tongue, a very basic and rough test, i know... but fwiw, it made nil difference to me, in my situation...

Ps, hope your holding goes well...

 

[[ga...]]

I am having anxiety and obsessive thoughts about this micro taper. I've made a few mistakes, am going very slow and am mostly ok. Then I read Ed's blog.  Slaying the dragon.  He did everything right. Jumped after a slow taper and is now in acute hell.  How and why does this happen to certain people? Do most valium dlmt land ok?

My heart goes out to him. I'm so confused because I thought if you do this slow daily taper it avoids acute at the end. Is valium the culprit?  It's almost like he went cold turkey after a year and a half. Is there any other precautions to take to avoid something like that?

 

I wouldn't be discouraged. There are lots of people that do well I imagine. Me, it's one day at a time. My thoughts race a lot... I'm weighing with a jewelry scale, not on the liquid yet. Everyone is different. This is my third taper, (first time on cold turkey) and I've been on almost 10 years straight. I hope to be off by the end of August, but we shall see. One thing I do find helpful, I simply tell myself that I'm gong to be OK and glide through this taper process. I should write that on my bathroom mirror. I will beat this addiction and get off easily and smoothly. Most days I'm really struggling, but I find the self talk helps...    Maybe read some success stories... I should.

 

Have you been on the Long Hold support group? (Sorry, I can't always remember where I "met" people.)  Many of us did a long hold when we got into trouble (for many months) and now are incorporating shorter holds regularly to give our brains and bodies a chance to catch up with healing.

 

I'm with ya, Gard. I'm having to do a short hold every single time I cut, and I'm doing really small cuts. I don't even try to figure out what the percentage is each month because it would be incredibly depressing. Probably be about .0000001230047mg/month Time to completion would be years and years, so I don't need to know that. When I do cut, I just try to tell myself that "I'm one cut closer to jumping". Yee-haaa! Gotta geaux celebrate!

 

Hang tight, sweet lady!!

 

Jeff

 

Yes, one cut closer to jumping! I actually hope we slow people "walk off" rather than jump off. Wouldn't that be a wonderful thing?

 

Walk off, fall off...I'd be happy just to be off! I'm going so slow that hell should be pretty cold by the time I get off the stuff. It's practically as much a psychological battle as it is a physical/physiological one.

 

Have a feel-gooder day!

 

Jeff

 

Jeff, Maybe you belong with us on the Long Hold support group. Also, known as the chicken, turtle, sail, sloth group. Sometimes it seems we are having a contest of who can go the slowest. Maybe you'd win!

 

Gard

 

The contest is already over...I won! If I geaux any slower, I'll be in reverse. I did a rare cut this past Friday and was blown out of the water that night. I'm still tied in knots, and it's Sunday afternoon! Mercy. Wave when you pass by, Gard!!

 

Hugsters,

 

Jeff

 

I'm so sorry this is going so poorly for you, Jeff. I don't know what else to say, except. Don't give up. Tiny cuts are still progress. 

[[Ul...]]

Hi everyone,

 

I'm really in a tough spot. I had been holding at 2.5 mg's of Klonopin for a while after a failed Valium substitution in early-mid December when I tried to change over to an all liquid solution earlier this week. I lasted 4 days and then I couldn't take it anymore and went back to dry. I know some people on this site say the fact that it's all liquid shouldn't matter but this is the third time I've tried and I get so slammed every time that I only last a few days. I have talked with others who have had difficulty switching and I don't know exactly why but I seem to be unable to do all liquid.

 

It is strange because the only taper I have had success with was liquefying .5 mg's at a time. I got down from 2.5 to 1.5 last year over about an 8 month period doing that before I got slammed from which I have never recovered. I am wondering if I should go back to trying that or if I should do a dry taper with a razor and scale (a method which has always seemed complicated and inaccurate to me). I'm told the method of .5 at a time is a bad idea because the doses won't be kept even but it did work for several months and I was at least somewhat stable during that time. I'm a bed ridden agoraphobic mess as it is right now and I don't know what to do. Do you think the .5 at a time liquefied is ok? Has the dry taper been easier for any of you who didn't do well with a liquid taper? I didn't do a proper crossover to Valium but I don't have a prescriber who would do one and even if I did 50 mg's sounds like an insanely high dose to be on when I did not do well on 10-30. Please, any input you could give would be greatly appreciated as I feel completely stuck. Thanks.

 

Hey Fuzzy, I'm anything but bright, but it sounds like it would really be tough to switch to an all-liquid taper at once. I was on 6mg/day of K when I began my taper, but I only converted a small amount to liquid in the beginning. I would've been blown out of the water if I had switched my full daily dose to all liquid. And maybe going from 2.5 to 1.5 in eight months was too quick for you. Maybe the combo of all-liquid and decreasing fairly rapidly was too much. I started with one of my multi doses each day as liquid, decreased a little and got used to the liquid, and then switched my second daily dose to liquid for a while, etc. I know I'm different than a lot of folks due to 23 years of K, other med cocktails, and brain zapping. Super mega sensitive to change, in other words (with still a really long way to go). Just a thought, but maybe a seriously slow gradual change to liquid while also doing small cuts along the way would help.

 

Keep experimenting until you find your way. You'll get there!

 

Jeff

[Guest [Fu...]]

Hey Jeff,

 

Thanks for the reply. Yeah a lot of people say switching to all liquid should not present any problems but I'm extremely sensitive too. When I got down to 1.5 from 2.5 it wasn't by doing all liquid, I had liquefied one dose of .5 and taken the rest dry. But it's possible I went too fast and that's what has caught up to me. It's just been impossible to stabilize and everyone tells me not to do .5 at a time as I'm "supposed to keep my doses even". So I really don't know what to do moving forward.

[[Ul...]]

Hey Jeff,

 

Thanks for the reply. Yeah a lot of people say switching to all liquid should not present any problems but I'm extremely sensitive too. When I got down to 1.5 from 2.5 it wasn't by doing all liquid, I had liquefied one dose of .5 and taken the rest dry. But it's possible I went too fast and that's what has caught up to me. It's just been impossible to stabilize and everyone tells me not to do .5 at a time as I'm "supposed to keep my doses even". So I really don't know what to do moving forward.

 

Yeh, I got ya. I was always told in life that if I don't know what to do in a given moment, then do nothing...your mind and body will resonate with something, and then move forward with that. Learning to trust myself and learning to listen to my body has helped with tons of things, and not just this benzo journey. When I began, I went ahead and just changed my first daily dose to liquid to get comfortable with the process and get used to a little liquid. I was a little nauseous at first, but it went away pretty quickly. I was scared snotless and had people telling me all kinds of things to do. I just kept at it real slowly. I'll have to admit, my doses got uneven pretty quickly. I got to where my first daily dose was really low and the other two daily doses (dry) were still even. The total daily doses was still the same for the most part (except for the amount I was tapering), but I was "lopsided". The guy who initially helped me get started left the thread, so I just kept going like an idiot!! Finally, Builder here heard what I was doing and set me straight. He was awesome! He calmed me down and walked me through what I needed to do to get "even" again. I felt pretty good by then, and I also had the confidence that I was on the right path. I had been beaten up mentally, but I felt like I had control once Builder helped me. SG soon became a super resource too, and then I just kept going with this crazy slow journey. So, personally I don't have a problem with starting off with just one dose as liquid and the other two as dry. Then, change the second dose to liquid and continue from there when you feel it's right. The beauty of it all is that we can hold at any given time that we want in order to "heal" and/or make any changes before moving forward again.

 

Listen to yourself, trust, and heal for a while. It's not a race, so you'll be fine if you take a while to figure out what you want and need to do. Maybe that "figuring out time" is exactly what you need to heal!!  And liquifying a single dose isn't the end of the world while you get used to the game.  Thanks God for DLMT

 

Hang tight!

 

Jeff

[Guest [Fu...]]

Thanks, I'm confused though are you saying to liquefy one dose and then two with the goal being to eventually have an all liquid dose? Because just moving the liquid doses around still results in uneven doses if I'm making cuts. I guess the thought process is to get acclimated to liquid slowly so I wouldn't be making any cuts during this time, right? Sorry if this is a dumb question, I'm having a really rough day.

[[...]]

Hey Cantfly,

 

Thanks for the information on your personal experience. Those are the results I guess we would expect. It's when people respond negatively to the liquid or the dissolving under the tongue, that must have tasted nasty, that we wonder what is going on. I myself switched to all liquid in one day and didn't have any problems at all. I also held there for awhile before I started moving my doses around to compensate for the interdose withdrawal I was experiencing.

 

So far the hold is helping. I know it doesn't work for everyone but I think my CNS really needed the break as it's still recovering from the Ct. It seems like ten months would be enough to heal but apparently not. I actually am a member of Surviving Antidepressants too and people who CT often end up taking many months to years to heal. I don't know if I can hold my taper for years though Another couple of weeks at least though I think to see what happens then back to a tiny micro, is that just too redundant, taper.

 

Hugs and healing

[[jr...]]

Thanks, I'm confused though are you saying to liquefy one dose and then two with the goal being to eventually have an all liquid dose? Because just moving the liquid doses around still results in uneven doses if I'm making cuts. I guess the thought process is to get acclimated to liquid slowly so I wouldn't be making any cuts during this time, right? Sorry if this is a dumb question, I'm having a really rough day.

 

You can split your dry into .75 two times a day and your liquid to .25 twice a day. that will keep you even. I dont know what youre taking or your dosage but this is a suggestiion to try to help.

[[ka...]]

Hey guys - I know, here i come with another question..... but i trust y'alls guidance! This afternoon I will go to the dermatologist. I have an area that he will probably want to biopsy.  Now, i know we must be very careful with what is used to deaden/numb the area as it can wreak havoc w our CNS. I was wondering what is best to use that will not stimulate or what i need to avoid? ( i posted this '?' on the v board as well)

thx ever so much!

[[Ca...]]

Hey guys - I know, here i come with another question..... but i trust y'alls guidance! This afternoon I will go to the dermatologist. I have an area that he will probably want to biopsy.  Now, i know we must be very careful with what is used to deaden/numb the area as it can wreak havoc w our CNS. I was wondering what is best to use that will not stimulate or what i need to avoid? ( i posted this '?' on the v board as well)

thx ever so much!

Fwiw... -I recently had some chunks chopped out, and had nil issue with the locals...

[[ka...]]

thx Can't!

[[Kg...]]

I just said no to the epinephrine - you don't need it and it revs me up.  I was fine with the non epi shot. 

[[Ul...]]

Thanks, I'm confused though are you saying to liquefy one dose and then two with the goal being to eventually have an all liquid dose? Because just moving the liquid doses around still results in uneven doses if I'm making cuts. I guess the thought process is to get acclimated to liquid slowly so I wouldn't be making any cuts during this time, right? Sorry if this is a dumb question, I'm having a really rough day.

 

Never a dumb question. We're all in this together while learning as we go. I see that jr gave a good response above this. And yes, I'm saying that you wouldn't be making any cuts at this time. That "holding time" may prove to be beneficial. It sure has for me, and I'm super sensitive to any kind of changes like you are. I'm totally out in left field when it comes to being like most other people. Really, really sensitive. So, making the gradual change to liquid by liquifying one dose only, while keeping the other doses dry, may be a help. Then, after a while, make the next dose liquid, stabilize, liquify the next, stabilze, etc. That worked for me to a point, except I kind of ruined things by cutting my first dose too much before liquifying my second one. I should've done what I'm telling you...liquify a dose, hold, liquify the next dose, hold, liquify the last dose, hold, and THEN start my gradual taper. Thank the holy heavens above that Builder and SG came along!

 

You can do this. One day at a time rather than one year. You're in control!!

 

Have an uplifting day!

 

Jeff

[[ga...]]

Thanks, I'm confused though are you saying to liquefy one dose and then two with the goal being to eventually have an all liquid dose? Because just moving the liquid doses around still results in uneven doses if I'm making cuts. I guess the thought process is to get acclimated to liquid slowly so I wouldn't be making any cuts during this time, right? Sorry if this is a dumb question, I'm having a really rough day.

 

Never a dumb question. We're all in this together while learning as we go. I see that jr gave a good response above this. And yes, I'm saying that you wouldn't be making any cuts at this time. That "holding time" may prove to be beneficial. It sure has for me, and I'm super sensitive to any kind of changes like you are. I'm totally out in left field when it comes to being like most other people. Really, really sensitive. So, making the gradual change to liquid by liquifying one dose only, while keeping the other doses dry, may be a help. Then, after a while, make the next dose liquid, stabilize, liquify the next, stabilze, etc. That worked for me to a point, except I kind of ruined things by cutting my first dose too much before liquifying my second one. I should've done what I'm telling you...liquify a dose, hold, liquify the next dose, hold, liquify the last dose, hold, and THEN start my gradual taper. Thank the holy heavens above that Builder and SG came along!

 

You can do this. One day at a time rather than one year. You're in control!!

 

Have an uplifting day!

 

Jeff

 

I did it that way, too. Liquefied one dose at a time and held a week. Helped to get used to the process, if nothing else! Now I could liquefy in my sleep. You can do it!

[[NW...]]

Hey guys - I know, here i come with another question..... but i trust y'alls guidance! This afternoon I will go to the dermatologist. I have an area that he will probably want to biopsy.  Now, i know we must be very careful with what is used to deaden/numb the area as it can wreak havoc w our CNS. I was wondering what is best to use that will not stimulate or what i need to avoid? ( i posted this '?' on the v board as well)

thx ever so much!

Fwiw... -I recently had some chunks chopped out, and had nil issue with the locals...

I was just at the dermatologist yesterday and had to get a mole scraped off for biopsy purposes.  They gave me a local lidocaine shot, and I didn't think to ask if it had epinephrine in it.  I slept OK last night and feel fine so far today.  If I have to go in to get a bigger chunk taken out, I'll ask for Lidocaine without epinephrine.  Hope it went well.

[[ga...]]

Hey guys - I know, here i come with another question..... but i trust y'alls guidance! This afternoon I will go to the dermatologist. I have an area that he will probably want to biopsy.  Now, i know we must be very careful with what is used to deaden/numb the area as it can wreak havoc w our CNS. I was wondering what is best to use that will not stimulate or what i need to avoid? ( i posted this '?' on the v board as well)

thx ever so much!

Fwiw... -I recently had some chunks chopped out, and had nil issue with the locals...

I was just at the dermatologist yesterday and had to get a mole scraped off for biopsy purposes.  They gave me a local lidocaine shot, and I didn't think to ask if it had epinephrine in it.  I slept OK last night and feel fine so far today.  If I have to go in to get a bigger chunk taken out, I'll ask for Lidocaine without epinephrine.  Hope it went well.

 

Glad you got through your procedure OK. Hope you get good news soon!

[Guest [Fu...]]

Thank you, everyone. It's reassuring to hear from others who had difficulty switching to all liquid who eventually were able to make the switch by gradually substituting doses.

[[re...]]

Hi All 

 

I just briefly read some of the posts. It seems some of you taper over to liquid from solid, if you take divided doses.

 

I take my entire dose at once... bedtime. Today I had a horrible panic attack... the first one I've had of that degree in a long, long time.

 

I called my doctor and am requesting the liquid now. Currently I'm just below 3.5mg diazepam. Boy, it's getting really rough. So, I want to go to liquid.

 

I'm planning to just stop the tablet and go to liquid. Any thoughts on that? Like I said, I take it all at bedtime...

 

Thanks!

 

[[ga...]]

Hi All 

 

I just briefly read some of the posts. It seems some of you taper over to liquid from solid, if you take divided doses.

 

I take my entire dose at once... bedtime. Today I had a horrible panic attack... the first one I've had of that degree in a long, long time.

 

I called my doctor and am requesting the liquid now. Currently I'm just below 3.5mg diazepam. Boy, it's getting really rough. So, I want to go to liquid.

 

I'm planning to just stop the tablet and go to liquid. Any thoughts on that? Like I said, I take it all at bedtime...

 

Thanks!

 

A very long time ago, I switched from X tablet to X liquid all it one swoop. I don't remember feeling any worse. I loved the convenience of the pre-made liquid. To be safe, you could treat it like a cut, and hold for a couple of weeks. Wouldn't hurt to have a few tablets to spare on hand in case you're one of the rare few who can't tolerate liquids at all. But I don't think that's very common. Remember, we hear mostly about the troubles on the boards, not the successes. Odds are, you will be fine.

 

Gard

[[Ca...]]

Gard is right... -I just happened to be one of the odd ones, prob more to do with my history than anything else...

Anyways, I treated the change as a cut in itself, which felt like the right thing for me...

The other thing i thought of was could you take a 2V tablet and 1.5 liquid for a week or so, if need be... But I realy dont think you will have any serious issues, maybe a blip... -unless you are rather unlucky...

Best wishes... -I guess I will be following your footsteps again soon...

 

[[jr...]]

Hi All 

 

I just briefly read some of the posts. It seems some of you taper over to liquid from solid, if you take divided doses.

 

I take my entire dose at once... bedtime. Today I had a horrible panic attack... the first one I've had of that degree in a long, long time.

 

I called my doctor and am requesting the liquid now. Currently I'm just below 3.5mg diazepam. Boy, it's getting really rough. So, I want to go to liquid.

 

I'm planning to just stop the tablet and go to liquid. Any thoughts on that? Like I said, I take it all at bedtime...

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks!

 

It is the same medicine liquid or solid. But some people report side effects when switching. I took a slight updose when I switched to liquid and didnt have any real problems.