Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[ga...]]

I need help on steps to take and how to start DLMT.  I cross tapered from 1.75 mg Ativan to 13 mg of Valium and dropped to 12 mg Valium on Feb 26.  I am severely depressed and almost non-functional.  I have been avoiding the DLMT route because it makes my head spin with all of the detail and complicated process.  I can't imagine even knowing where to begin.  My current dosing schedule is : 4 mg morning, 3 mg afternoon, 5 mg night.  Can someone advise me on how to do this?  I am so depressed with severe cognitive impairment.  The math required to figure this out seems overwhelming.  Does anyone have any advice?  See signature for history.  Thanks in advance.

[[ho...]]

I need help on steps to take and how to start DLMT.  I cross tapered from 1.75 mg Ativan to 13 mg of Valium and dropped to 12 mg Valium on Feb 26.  I am severely depressed and almost non-functional.  I have been avoiding the DLMT route because it makes my head spin with all of the detail and complicated process.  I can't imagine even knowing where to begin.  My current dosing schedule is : 4 mg morning, 3 mg afternoon, 5 mg night.  Can someone advise me on how to do this?  I am so depressed with severe cognitive impairment.  The math required to figure this out seems overwhelming.  Does anyone have any advice?  See signature for history.  Thanks in advance.

if you are wanting to go with liquid there is a titration board. Builder or someone there can help you with the numbers and such.

[[bu...]]

I need help on steps to take and how to start DLMT.  I cross tapered from 1.75 mg Ativan to 13 mg of Valium and dropped to 12 mg Valium on Feb 26.  I am severely depressed and almost non-functional.  I have been avoiding the DLMT route because it makes my head spin with all of the detail and complicated process.  I can't imagine even knowing where to begin.  My current dosing schedule is : 4 mg morning, 3 mg afternoon, 5 mg night.  Can someone advise me on how to do this?  I am so depressed with severe cognitive impairment.  The math required to figure this out seems overwhelming.  Does anyone have any advice?  See signature for history.  Thanks in advance.

 

Can you stir sugar into a cup of coffee or tea?  The you can prepare your liquid.  Can you read a ruler?  Then you can use a syringe to measure your dose.

 

There is no "math" but there is some grade school arithmetic.  There's a calculator on your phone.

 

To make your liquid:

 

Dissolve a 2mg tablet in 4ml vodka or propylene glycol and add 16ml water.  Now you have 20ml liquid V, .1mg per ml.

 

To calcualte your taper:

 

Choose a % drop and a time period. ex:  10% every 2 weeks (14days)

 

% X your dose.  ex: 10%X12mg =1.2mg (notice I just moved the decimal)

 

1.2mg/14 days=.085mg/day (.85ml/day) 

 

To start your daily taper:

 

10mg tablets    2mg (20ml) liquid    12mg total

10mg tablets    1.915mg (19.15ml) liquid      11.915mg total

10mg tablets    1.83mg (18.3ml) liquid    11.83mg total

10mg tablets    1.745mg (17.45ml) liquid    11.745 total

etc...

To determine each days dose, just subtract .085mg from the previous days dose.  Once you have measured out the days dose, you can just divide the liquid into the 2 or 3 seperate doses.  They do not have to be exact.  Close is good enough. (Your calculator should do the daily subtraction automatically)  Write the daily plan down and just check it each day.

 

You will need a 1ml syringe, a 10ml syringe, and an ordinary glass jar with a lid (salad dressing, pickles olives, etc).  A 50-60 ml syringe or a 100ml graduated cylinder is helpful, but not required.

 

Store your liquid at room temp.

 

You can choose a different taper rate if you choose.  Just substitute your rate for the 10%/14 days I used and follow the same formula.

[[Pl...]]

Builder

                        He cuts daily so its hard to know when he last felt better but it was probably close to a month ago now, he has been holding on and off a lot in the past few months due to some outside stress and concussion.

We have labratory grade scales that measure .0001 and were very expensive. Extremely accurate also.

Have been coming down about .9mg a month by shaving .0010 daily he has handled this pretty well considering his previous kindling and sensitivities.We obviously want this to go as smooth as possible, it's been a long journey and we need to keep the taper going in some way, shape or form. Tried switching to a diazapam elixer with pills about a year ago but not sure if he tolerated it, thats when I purchased the scales and started dry cutting.

Are there any other options for liquid, not keen to put alcohol in as a solvent as he is so sensitive. I am putting some questions out there so we have some resources to draw on before we make any decisions. It's up to us at the end of the day

but you can never have enough info when making impotant decisions on something as debilitating as this. In your opinion, what is the advantage of using the liquid?

Thanks for your help.

Can you tell me the name of the scale and brand and how much it roughly costs? Thank you or you can pm me info if that is acceptable?

 

 

This is what I use and it performs very well.  I don't want to link to a commercial site, but if you type in Tree HRB-224, you'll find this item on sale at a few places for between $700-$800.

 

Best of luck,

Ed

 

Edzo... Yes! This is what I remember seeing.... Thank you very much for sharing this info with me!

One more question though, have you ever used any other scale to compare this too as far as accuracy such as the Gemini one that I use and noticed a difference?  Thank you

 

Yes, I used the Gemini ($25 version) and it worked fine and dandy until around 4mg or so. After that, my super sensitive system needed something more accurate. The Gemini, in my experience, experiences a variation of +/- .003. The scale above, in my experience, experiences variation of only +/- .0002. Quite a difference for those who are super sensitive. I'm by no means telling anyone to go out and buy a scale like this. Most don't need it.  But I did and I'm glad I spent the money.  That fourth decimal place makes a huge difference to me.

 

Best,

Ed

 

Oh wow!  Thank you so much for sharing that with me... I'm definitely hypersensitive so anything that helps with better accuracy I'm all for.. Thanks again!!!!

[Guest [wi...]]

I need help on steps to take and how to start DLMT.  I cross tapered from 1.75 mg Ativan to 13 mg of Valium and dropped to 12 mg Valium on Feb 26.  I am severely depressed and almost non-functional.  I have been avoiding the DLMT route because it makes my head spin with all of the detail and complicated process.  I can't imagine even knowing where to begin.  My current dosing schedule is : 4 mg morning, 3 mg afternoon, 5 mg night.  Can someone advise me on how to do this?  I am so depressed with severe cognitive impairment.  The math required to figure this out seems overwhelming.  Does anyone have any advice?  See signature for history.  Thanks in advance.

 

Can you stir sugar into a cup of coffee or tea?  The you can prepare your liquid.  Can you read a ruler?  Then you can use a syringe to measure your dose.

 

There is no "math" but there is some grade school arithmetic.  There's a calculator on your phone.

 

To make your liquid:

 

Dissolve a 2mg tablet in 4ml vodka or propylene glycol and add 16ml water.  Now you have 20ml liquid V, .1mg per ml.

 

To calcualte your taper:

 

Choose a % drop and a time period. ex:  10% every 2 weeks (14days)

 

% X your dose.  ex: 10%X12mg =1.2mg (notice I just moved the decimal)

 

1.2mg/14 days=.085mg/day (.85ml/day) 

 

To start your daily taper:

 

10mg tablets    2mg (20ml) liquid    12mg total

10mg tablets    1.915mg (19.15ml) liquid      11.915mg total

10mg tablets    1.83mg (18.3ml) liquid    11.83mg total

10mg tablets    1.745mg (17.45ml) liquid    11.745 total

etc...

To determine each days dose, just subtract .085mg from the previous days dose.  Once you have measured out the days dose, you can just divide the liquid into the 2 or 3 seperate doses.  They do not have to be exact.  Close is good enough. (Your calculator should do the daily subtraction automatically)  Write the daily plan down and just check it each day.

 

You will need a 1ml syringe, a 10ml syringe, and an ordinary glass jar with a lid (salad dressing, pickles olives, etc).  A 50-60 ml syringe or a 100ml graduated cylinder is helpful, but not required.

 

Store your liquid at room temp.

 

You can choose a different taper rate if you choose.  Just substitute your rate for the 10%/14 days I used and follow the same formula.

 

I must add my two cents regarding liquids to reinforce builder's comments.  I've used every method here, including weighing pills with a $25 Gemini scale (which worked just fine, btw).  For some reason, I was intimated to use liquids.  I finally got sick of crushing and weighing pills and tried liquids and what a difference it made towards simplifying the process.  It literally takes me 2 minutes to prepare a solution that can last me days.  As builder says, the math is simple.  I have severe fog fog and if I can figure it out, anyone can.  Looking back, I would have switched to liquids sooner because it made this process that much easier. 

[[bu...]]

 

I must add my two cents regarding liquids to reinforce builder's comments. 

 

  It literally takes me 2 minutes to prepare a solution that can last me days.  As builder says, the math arithmetic is simple.  I have severe fog fog and if I can figure it out, anyone can.  Looking back, I would have switched to liquids sooner because it made this process that much easier.

 

[[ga...]]

I need help on steps to take and how to start DLMT.  I cross tapered from 1.75 mg Ativan to 13 mg of Valium and dropped to 12 mg Valium on Feb 26.  I am severely depressed and almost non-functional.  I have been avoiding the DLMT route because it makes my head spin with all of the detail and complicated process.  I can't imagine even knowing where to begin.  My current dosing schedule is : 4 mg morning, 3 mg afternoon, 5 mg night.  Can someone advise me on how to do this?  I am so depressed with severe cognitive impairment.  The math required to figure this out seems overwhelming.  Does anyone have any advice?  See signature for history.  Thanks in advance.

 

Can you stir sugar into a cup of coffee or tea?  The you can prepare your liquid.  Can you read a ruler?  Then you can use a syringe to measure your dose.

 

There is no "math" but there is some grade school arithmetic.  There's a calculator on your phone.

 

To make your liquid:

 

Dissolve a 2mg tablet in 4ml vodka or propylene glycol and add 16ml water.  Now you have 20ml liquid V, .1mg per ml.

 

To calcualte your taper:

 

Choose a % drop and a time period. ex:  10% every 2 weeks (14days)

 

% X your dose.  ex: 10%X12mg =1.2mg (notice I just moved the decimal)

 

1.2mg/14 days=.085mg/day (.85ml/day) 

 

To start your daily taper:

 

10mg tablets    2mg (20ml) liquid    12mg total

10mg tablets    1.915mg (19.15ml) liquid      11.915mg total

10mg tablets    1.83mg (18.3ml) liquid    11.83mg total

10mg tablets    1.745mg (17.45ml) liquid    11.745 total

etc...

To determine each days dose, just subtract .085mg from the previous days dose.  Once you have measured out the days dose, you can just divide the liquid into the 2 or 3 seperate doses.  They do not have to be exact.  Close is good enough. (Your calculator should do the daily subtraction automatically)  Write the daily plan down and just check it each day.

 

You will need a 1ml syringe, a 10ml syringe, and an ordinary glass jar with a lid (salad dressing, pickles olives, etc).  A 50-60 ml syringe or a 100ml graduated cylinder is helpful, but not required.

 

Store your liquid at room temp.

 

You can choose a different taper rate if you choose.  Just substitute your rate for the 10%/14 days I used and follow the same formula.

 

Thanks a million, builder!  So, each day I cut the 2 mg tablet down by .085 mg before mixing with 10x that amount of liquid?  How do I cut the tablet to get to that specific mg level each day? 

[[bu...]]

 

 

 

Thanks a million, builder!  So, each day I cut the 2 mg tablet down by .085 mg before mixing with 10x that amount of liquid?  How do I cut the tablet to get to that specific mg level each day?

 

"Dissolve a 2mg tablet in 4ml vodka or propylene glycol and add 16ml water"

 

 

 

You don't cut any tablets.  Your simply going to dissolve the tablet in a solvent (vodka or PG), then dilute it to create a supply of liquid valium.

 

You get the "specific mg level each day" by measuring out the appropriate amount of the liquid you have prepared with an oral syringe.

 

 

If you follow the schedule I posted, that 2mg/20ml batch will last about 10 days.

[[ga...]]

 

 

 

Thanks a million, builder!  So, each day I cut the 2 mg tablet down by .085 mg before mixing with 10x that amount of liquid?  How do I cut the tablet to get to that specific mg level each day?

 

"Dissolve a 2mg tablet in 4ml vodka or propylene glycol and add 16ml water"

 

 

 

You don't cut any tablets.  Your simply going to dissolve the tablet in a solvent (vodka or PG), then dilute it to create a supply of liquid valium.

 

You get the "specific mg level each day" by measuring out the appropriate amount of the liquid you have prepared with an oral syringe.

 

 

If you follow the schedule I posted, that 2mg/20ml batch will last about 10 days.

Gotcha.  Sorry to be so slow on the uptake.  Would milk work as well as vodka or PG?  Also, any idea if DLMT helps with the depression caused by the valium?  I don't think the depression is due to withdrawal as much as to the Valium, itself. 

[[ga...]]

 

 

 

Thanks a million, builder!  So, each day I cut the 2 mg tablet down by .085 mg before mixing with 10x that amount of liquid?  How do I cut the tablet to get to that specific mg level each day?

 

"Dissolve a 2mg tablet in 4ml vodka or propylene glycol and add 16ml water"

 

 

 

You don't cut any tablets.  Your simply going to dissolve the tablet in a solvent (vodka or PG), then dilute it to create a supply of liquid valium.

 

You get the "specific mg level each day" by measuring out the appropriate amount of the liquid you have prepared with an oral syringe.

 

 

If you follow the schedule I posted, that 2mg/20ml batch will last about 10 days.

Another probably really dumb question.  If I have 20ml (equal to 2 mg) of liquid on day 1 and use 19.15ml (equal to 1.915 mg) on day 2, how will 20ml last 10 days?

[[bu...]]

 

 

 

Thanks a million, builder!  So, each day I cut the 2 mg tablet down by .085 mg before mixing with 10x that amount of liquid?  How do I cut the tablet to get to that specific mg level each day?

 

"Dissolve a 2mg tablet in 4ml vodka or propylene glycol and add 16ml water"

 

 

 

You don't cut any tablets.  Your simply going to dissolve the tablet in a solvent (vodka or PG), then dilute it to create a supply of liquid valium.

 

You get the "specific mg level each day" by measuring out the appropriate amount of the liquid you have prepared with an oral syringe.

 

 

If you follow the schedule I posted, that 2mg/20ml batch will last about 10 days.

Gotcha.  Sorry to be so slow on the uptake.  Would milk work as well as vodka or PG?  Also, any idea if DLMT helps with the depression caused by the valium?  I don't think the depression is due to withdrawal as much as to the Valium, itself.

 

 

Yes, you can use milk.  It obviously has a shorter shelf life, but it works OK.

 

Changing to liquid will let you easily make smaller dose reductions, but the liquid will not change the way the med effects you.  However, a DLMT will also certainly reduce your  WD sxs.

[[bu...]]

 

 

 

Thanks a million, builder!  So, each day I cut the 2 mg tablet down by .085 mg before mixing with 10x that amount of liquid?  How do I cut the tablet to get to that specific mg level each day?

 

"Dissolve a 2mg tablet in 4ml vodka or propylene glycol and add 16ml water"

 

 

 

You don't cut any tablets.  Your simply going to dissolve the tablet in a solvent (vodka or PG), then dilute it to create a supply of liquid valium.

 

You get the "specific mg level each day" by measuring out the appropriate amount of the liquid you have prepared with an oral syringe.

 

 

If you follow the schedule I posted, that 2mg/20ml batch will last about 10 days.

Another probably really dumb question.  If I have 20ml (equal to 2 mg) of liquid on day 1 and use 19.15ml (equal to 1.915 mg) on day 2, how will 20ml last 10 days?

 

My mistake.  To make a 10 day (20mg) batch you will need 20mg of tablets+40ml of solvent + 160ml water.

 

If you do milk, you probably don't want to make a 20 day batch.  And if you do milk, just use a ratio of 2mg+20ml milk.  Or some folks do 2mg+200ml milk.

[[st...]]

SG57

 

Thanks SG.

 

We started on 1.2mg per month from 20mg initially and that was running relatively smooth until he injured his head and we did a 2 month hold around that point then resumed taper at .9mg per month.

 

Do you think it's wise to hold for a few more days then if there is no improvement maybe updose to a little bit and hold for a while? We still have switched him over to the 2mg tabs, I'm not sure if it's wise to do that at this juncture, what do you think?

[[st...]]

builder

 

Thank you for the information.

 

We initially tried with tabs + rx liquid but can't remember the formula. What is the best way to taper if using liquid alone or liquid and dry tabs if we decide to go tha route?

 

 

[[...]]

SG57

 

Thanks SG.

 

We started on 1.2mg per month from 20mg initially and that was running relatively smooth until he injured his head and we did a 2 month hold around that point then resumed taper at .9mg per month.

 

Do you think it's wise to hold for a few more days then if there is no improvement maybe updose to a little bit and hold for a while? We still have switched him over to the 2mg tabs, I'm not sure if it's wise to do that at this juncture, what do you think?

 

The effectiveness of updosing is time-sensitive so I would do it right away if you are going to do it.

 

I would not make the switch to 2mg pills right now.  They undoubtedly will be from a different manufacturing batch which opens him up to a possible sudden change in dosage.

[[Cl...]]

I used American Weigh Scales GEMINI-20 Portable MilliGram Scale, It is available on amazon for $25. I ground 10 pills into a powder and weighed out my doses. I mixed them with water and drank them. It worked great for me until I got to .005g and then I switched to liquid.

 

That's what I use too... My question to you or anybody on this board (builder /SG) tell me if this is okay (brother does this for me):

 

1).  We first take about 10 pills in a batch and weigh them all then divide by 10 then get an average weight...( always is between 169 and 170 grams) then out of this particular batch we do dry cutting with the use of (2) .50 mg generic kolonopin pills . 

 

2) These two pills are used to make up 3 doses a day.

 

3). I am currently at .92 mg. conversion is about 103 grams per dose

 

THIS IS THE PART IM CONCERNED ABOUT:

 

My brother uses the pills from that batch  by cutting each of the 2 pills where they are scored into half ( making a total of 4 halves)

 

  - he will take 3 of the halves ( 1 half for each dose; then use the remaining half to divvy up among the three doses to achieve the desired weight for each)

  - is this okay to do?

  - should he be partially crushing all 10 pills and picking at random out of the batch or partially

    Crushing the 2 pills together ( meaning not a fine powder) to divide up?

  - or should all ten pills be crushed into a fine powder or at least the two pills?

  - I know its been reported there are variances in distribution in the pills

  - I just really need to know if what we are doing is the best way/acceptable/good enough way to do

      This when it comes to dry pill cutting

 

Couldn't do liquid; and I loved the method so much....

 

Thank you kindly for reading and responding.....

 

Hi Pleasebehere,

Yes, this is Ok, I did it similar. I checked the surface only of a pill and saw the very good distribution of clonazepam in a 0.5 mg Rivotril pill. So, instead of grounding powders I try to take a piece of pill instead until it was no longer possible due to the small dose.

All the best,

Clona

[[st...]]

SG57

 

Does that mean if we hold too long on his current dose it could be too late to stabilise by a small updose?

[[...]]

SG57

 

Does that mean if we hold too long on his current dose it could be too late to stabilise by a small updose?

 

I don't know about stabilizing - he might still be able to taper, but it might make it harder to get rid of existing symptoms.  I think holding will eventually resolve any issue, but if symptoms are allowed to linger it can lead to a longer-term situation.  If not addressed, IMO, symptoms can become entrenched due to glutamate toxicity.  I liken it to a small CT...a longer-term type of injury occurs.  To me, tapering is all about avoiding this injury.

[[jr...]]

SG57

 

Does that mean if we hold too long on his current dose it could be too late to stabilise by a small updose?

 

I don't know about stabilizing - he might still be able to taper, but it might make it harder to get rid of existing symptoms.  I think holding will eventually resolve any issue, but if symptoms are allowed to linger it can lead to a longer-term situation.  If not addressed, IMO, symptoms can become entrenched due to glutamate toxicity.  I liken it to a small CT...a longer-term type of injury occurs.  To me, tapering is all about avoiding this injury.

 

 

Do you think the damage done by glutamate toxicity is permanent or can it be healed?

[[...]]

I don't know about stabilizing - he might still be able to taper, but it might make it harder to get rid of existing symptoms.  I think holding will eventually resolve any issue, but if symptoms are allowed to linger it can lead to a longer-term situation.  If not addressed, IMO, symptoms can become entrenched due to glutamate toxicity.  I liken it to a small CT...a longer-term type of injury occurs.  To me, tapering is all about avoiding this injury.

Do you think the damage done by glutamate toxicity is permanent or can it be healed?

 

I think everyone eventually heals, but it can take a very long time. Even CT cases eventually get over it, although it can take them 5-7 years for the worst cases.

[[st...]]

SG57

 

Thanks so much SG,

So even though these symptoms have been around a while it might be worth a small updose and longer hold? I'm thinking maybe we go up to 12.4 or something around that area. I'm not sure if the symptoms have become entrenched but it's been close to a month.

 

[[...]]

SG57

 

Thanks so much SG,

So even though these symptoms have been around a while it might be worth a small updose and longer hold? I'm thinking maybe we go up to 12.4 or something around that area. I'm not sure if the symptoms have become entrenched but it's been close to a month.

 

Yeah, it might be worth it to try to stop the glutamate symptoms from evolving.  A month is a long time, but he still might be able to put a stop to it, or at least partially.  Going back to the last dose he felt good at might be a good dose to pick.

[[ga...]]

Sure hope things work out, staunch.

[[...]]

Hi Anne,

 

Thanks for the link to the containers. It's funny, I bought the plastic because I was worried about a glass bottle breaking and I figured the plastic ones wouldn't. Live and learn.

 

Thanks for the PM Jeff. I really appreciated all the information.

 

SG57

 

Does that mean if we hold too long on his current dose it could be too late to stabilise by a small updose?

 

I don't know about stabilizing - he might still be able to taper, but it might make it harder to get rid of existing symptoms.  I think holding will eventually resolve any issue, but if symptoms are allowed to linger it can lead to a longer-term situation.  If not addressed, IMO, symptoms can become entrenched due to glutamate toxicity.  I liken it to a small CT...a longer-term type of injury occurs.  To me, tapering is all about avoiding this injury.

 

I'm confused by this statement. What if holding causes the symptoms to linger. I had to CT an AD due to a severe adverse reaction and I know I have glutamate toxicity from it. I've had anxiety and agoraphobia issues since I CT'd over nine months ago. Now I've run into a wave from that CT and I need to hold on my benzo taper but I've also been having sxs from my benzo and they started before I started tapering. If I hold and the sxs don't stabilize am I only digging a deeper hole of glutamate toxicity? How do glutamate sxs evolve? I don't want to do more damage by holding too long. Any information you might have on this would be appreciated.

 

Thanks,

 

Hugs and healing

[[...]]

I don't know about stabilizing - he might still be able to taper, but it might make it harder to get rid of existing symptoms.  I think holding will eventually resolve any issue, but if symptoms are allowed to linger it can lead to a longer-term situation.  If not addressed, IMO, symptoms can become entrenched due to glutamate toxicity.  I liken it to a small CT...a longer-term type of injury occurs.  To me, tapering is all about avoiding this injury.

I'm confused by this statement. What if holding causes the symptoms to linger. I had to CT an AD due to a severe adverse reaction and I know I have glutamate toxicity from it. I've had anxiety and agoraphobia issues since I CT'd over nine months ago. Now I've run into a wave from that CT and I need to hold on my benzo taper but I've also been having sxs from my benzo and they started before I started tapering. If I hold and the sxs don't stabilize am I only digging a deeper hole of glutamate toxicity? How do glutamate sxs evolve? I don't want to do more damage by holding too long. Any information you might have on this would be appreciated.

 

Thanks,

 

Hugs and healing

 

For insight into what might be going on read Perseverance's research in the Chewing the Fat section.  My interpretation in a nutshell is that tapering is about benzo shortages.  The brain/CNS can function normally with a little less benzo, but there is a limit to how short it can be.  If you exceed the limit the glutamate injury process is set in motion.  If this is not addressed a longer-term symptom situation is set up.  Long term holding will eventually fix this, but it can be a very long, slow process.