Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[...]]

Cantfly,

 

My sxs didn't listen to you. They are worse today than they were yesterday. I've been crying almost all day. I think a lot of it is over frustration that such a tiny taper has caused me to have such bad sxs. I don't know how to taper like this. I'm trying to do a sxs based taper like Jeff but I only tapered .00285mg and had to hold. I feel like I'm never going to get off this stuff. I'm trapped in my house, anxiety through the roof, crying, etc. I just don't know what to do. The more I try to taper the harder it seems to get and the less I seem to be able to cut. I'm feeling pretty scared.

 

Jeff, I think my kayak is going sideways. I've never had that happen before 

[[Ul...]]

Cantfly,

 

My sxs didn't listen to you. They are worse today than they were yesterday. I've been crying almost all day. I think a lot of it is over frustration that such a tiny taper has caused me to have such bad sxs. I don't know how to taper like this. I'm trying to do a sxs based taper like Jeff but I only tapered .00285mg and had to hold. I feel like I'm never going to get off this stuff. I'm trapped in my house, anxiety through the roof, crying, etc. I just don't know what to do. The more I try to taper the harder it seems to get and the less I seem to be able to cut. I'm feeling pretty scared.

 

Jeff, I think my kayak is going sideways. I've never had that happen before 

 

Well, if it's going sideways, then at least it's going   I think that's all we can ask for. I can tell you this: I was having an incredibly difficult time by the time I got from 6mg/day down to your current dose. Then I just did what I needed to do to maintain sanity. It worked though because I was then able to at least get to a point where I could cut a little again. It's like I was kind of stuck in the rapids up against a rock, but then I finally got around it. If I keep going at the rate I'm going, then it'll take me years to get off this stuff, BUT I don't think of it that way anymore. At least I'm taking less now than I was over the last 23 years!! I think the less thinking we do about all this, the better. You sound like you're doing what I was doing for SO long...being totally obsessed with this journey every minute of every day. I honestly believe that when we get to a point where we just accept all of this as a part of our lives and then go on with life as best we can, then that's when we relax some (physically and mentally) and just move on. It's kind of like a person who loses a hand; it may be a bummer, but they learn how to do things in an alternate way and then just go about their daily lives without thinking about it much. We have an advantage though...we get our hand back at the end of the journey!  You'll see.

 

Enjoy the little things and keep the faith!

 

Jeff

 

 

[[Ul...]]

I'm feeling frustrated again. I tapered .00095mg for three days and on day three I woke up with really bad sxs. Now I'm going to have to hold again after only tapering .00285mg  I feel like this is going to take the rest of my life to get off of.

 

I really thought that going this slow would be a cinch! I was really happy when yesterday I was still at my baseline. Well, this is what a sxs based taper looks like I guess. I hope I don't have to hold too long though. I feel like that's all I'm doing is holding.

 

Sorry for the rant.

 

I hope the rest of you can figure out your tapers and go at a decent rate!

 

Hugs and healing. 

 

Take all the time you need to taper. Tapering is really the easy part, Jumping is the hard!

 

What do you think of this, jr (and anyone else too): I met two people this weekend who both tapered off high doses of klonopin over a period of about 3 1/2 years. They've never heard of BB's, yet they did a liquid micro taper. They started, went for it, and did what made sense to them along the way. When they got to the end, they didn't just jump. They took the amount of their last dose then waited a day before taking it again. Then they took that dose and waited two days before taking it again. Then they took that dose and waited three days before taking it again. They both stopped completely (jumped) when they were about 10-12 days between their last doses. Thoughts?

 

Thanks!

[[ga...]]

tntd, All I can say is I'm so sorry this is so awful for you. One day at a time. One day closer to the finish line. Even if your kayak sometimes goes sideways.

 

Gard

[[bu...]]

 

 

What do you think of this, jr (and anyone else too): I met two people this weekend who both tapered off high doses of klonopin over a period of about 3 1/2 years. They've never heard of BB's, yet they did a liquid micro taper. They started, went for it, and did what made sense to them along the way. When they got to the end, they didn't just jump. They took the amount of their last dose then waited a day before taking it again. Then they took that dose and waited two days before taking it again. Then they took that dose and waited three days before taking it again. They both stopped completely (jumped) when they were about 10-12 days between their last doses. Thoughts?

 

Thanks!

 

Alternate day dosing to taper off the final amounts is fine.  But once you have spread your schedule to every 3-4 days, you might as well just stop.  If going 4 days off of K  doesn't bring on WD sxs, then you are no longer dependent.  Continuing periodoc dosing beyond that point is just needlessly prolonging your taper.

[[...]]

 

Well, if it's going sideways, then at least it's going   I think that's all we can ask for. I can tell you this: I was having an incredibly difficult time by the time I got from 6mg/day down to your current dose. Then I just did what I needed to do to maintain sanity. It worked though because I was then able to at least get to a point where I could cut a little again. It's like I was kind of stuck in the rapids up against a rock, but then I finally got around it. If I keep going at the rate I'm going, then it'll take me years to get off this stuff, BUT I don't think of it that way anymore. At least I'm taking less now than I was over the last 23 years!! I think the less thinking we do about all this, the better. You sound like you're doing what I was doing for SO long...being totally obsessed with this journey every minute of every day. I honestly believe that when we get to a point where we just accept all of this as a part of our lives and then go on with life as best we can, then that's when we relax some (physically and mentally) and just move on. It's kind of like a person who loses a hand; it may be a bummer, but they learn how to do things in an alternate way and then just go about their daily lives without thinking about it much. We have an advantage though...we get our hand back at the end of the journey!  You'll see.

 

Enjoy the little things and keep the faith!

 

Jeff

 

Jeff,

 

I agree, I'm thinking about it too much. I'm also alone and trapped in my house almost everyday so it's easy to get caught up in how long this is going to take. If I could get out and do things I don't think I would be nearly as bothered.

 

How do you get to the point where you can just accept being trapped in the house and move on. It does have me obssesed with the journey. You have very good points I'm just not sure how to get around the rocks I'm trapped against right now. I've tried forcing myself outside and that just makes the sxs worse. It's the agoraphobia that's driving me nuts and that's what I'm obsessing over. I don't think I can handle being trapped in my house for the years this taper is going to take. 

 

Thanks Gard. I've been trying to keep that in mind. One day closer to the finish line.

 

Thank you both I really appreciate your support and help. 

 

[[jr...]]

I'm feeling frustrated again. I tapered .00095mg for three days and on day three I woke up with really bad sxs. Now I'm going to have to hold again after only tapering .00285mg  I feel like this is going to take the rest of my life to get off of.

 

I really thought that going this slow would be a cinch! I was really happy when yesterday I was still at my baseline. Well, this is what a sxs based taper looks like I guess. I hope I don't have to hold too long though. I feel like that's all I'm doing is holding.

 

Sorry for the rant.

 

I hope the rest of you can figure out your tapers and go at a decent rate!

 

Hugs and healing. 

 

Take all the time you need to taper. Tapering is really the easy part, Jumping is the hard!

 

What do you think of this, jr (and anyone else too): I met two people this weekend who both tapered off high doses of klonopin over a period of about 3 1/2 years. They've never heard of BB's, yet they did a liquid micro taper. They started, went for it, and did what made sense to them along the way. When they got to the end, they didn't just jump. They took the amount of their last dose then waited a day before taking it again. Then they took that dose and waited two days before taking it again. Then they took that dose and waited three days before taking it again. They both stopped completely (jumped) when they were about 10-12 days between their last doses. Thoughts?

 

Thanks!

 

I had a friend on Xanax who couldn't leave the house without her med. If she forgot it for some reason , she would go back home to retrieve it. When she decided to get off, she went as long as she possibly could before taking her dose. this went on for a few months until she wasn't taking any at all. It worked for her but I was afraid to try it and done a taper instead.

[[ga...]]

tntd, I was housebound for quite awhile after my Xanax crash and it was awful. But I actually had to go out at times because I was alone. Go out or starve. I went out a wreck and came home a wreck. I thought I would be that way for the whole taper, but I'm improved now. Maybe going out was better than staying home or maybe it did me damage. I really don't know. It's been sort of a figure-it-out-day-by-day thing. I think my mindfulness skills helped me to tolerate the anxiety better and the long hold helped me get my feet back under me so I am not housebound very much any more. It could happen for you, too. This journey is full of surprises.

 

Gard

[[Ca...]]

Hey Tntd, -i see your sx have about the same manners as mine...

 

-if i had to guess, i would say that your dose and healing points are very close together. ie, that there is little to no buffer.... I cant say for sure, but a decent hold now, may well save time in the long run.

I know someone doing their third taper that cuts for about 10days, then holds for about a month... with much success...  -only a few small Blips after the micro cuts... yes it might be a tad slow, but its what works, so is it realy slow in the end...?? (And one of the happiest people i have met)

I guess it depends on any previous hold history and length...

But i do beleive that...

Holding is Healing..

 

Hang in there....

 

[[...]]

Thanks guys I really appreciate your responses.

 

Gard, I don't know if it's a blessing or a curse that I have people here to take care of me. I don't have to go out and when I try I end up in "terror and tears" as I put it. Then the tears last awhile as I try to recover from the anxiety the attempt caused. I'm glad to hear that you aren't really housebound much anymore.

 

Cantfly, I hadn't thought of it that way before. The dose and healing points being very close together.

 

When I first started I did a 10 day micro taper at .0019mg daily and had horrible sxs but I held for five days and after three I was back to my base line sxs. I just tried to do that again with a smaller dose taper .00095mg and by the middle of the third day I was already a mess and I'm not sure why. I also did a hold for a month and then did a two day taper after which I had to hold for two weeks before I was back to baseline. It seems the more I taper the less I can and I'm not sure why.

 

I've been considering another hold of at least a month though the thought makes me want to cry because I just want to be off of this stuff and I did almost no tapering this past month. I would love to be able to taper for 10 days and then hold for a month. Do you know what amount this person was micro tapering each day?

 

I'm afraid to do a long hold because I'm afraid that if I do it and it doesn't help that just adds to the length of time that I have to deal with the agoraphobia. At the same time it seems like it would be a nice break from trying to deal with this. So frustrated and confused as to which way to go.

 

I'm also only nine months out from a CT from Wellbutrin and I'm wondering how much of an affect this is having on everything.

 

Thank you again for your thoughts 

 

Hugs 

T

[[ga...]]

Oh gosh, tntd, I'm sorry to hear about the c/t of the wellbutrin. Did you have symptoms like this before you started your benzo taper? I would wonder, too, if that is still causing your nervous system to be hypersensitive. Maybe it's not just the K taper. Maybe it's the 2 together.

 

Have you looked at the "other medications" sub-form? Mindseeker (sadly left BB awhile ago, a great person) has a sticky on there about antidepressants. Maybe you can find someone else in a similar situation in that subform who could give you some insight.

 

Gard

 

Just found this:

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=174912.0

[[...]]

Thanks so much Gard.

 

I did have sxs like this before I started the benzo taper but they had started to get better. I was having lots of really nice windows and living life decently. The waves were hard but that's normal. Then things took a turn for the worse in September and I stopped having windows and started having new sxs. I had planned on waiting to taper the benzo until I was stable after the CT but when I started going the other direction my Dr and a moderator from SA both said it was tolerance w/d from the benzo and I either had to increase my dose or start tapering. The last time I increased my dose I reached tolerance to it in two weeks so increasing didn't seem like a very good idea. Plus it wold be that much more I would have to taper off of.

 

I'm getting desperate right now. I'm being tempted to do bigger cuts and get off of this stuff faster. I'm afraid of the w/d and the long term effects though.

 

I will take a look at the thread you suggested. Thank you so much 

 

Hugs, 

T

[[Ca...]]

Tntd, i think 0.005 mg/d V

Or 5% over 10 days from 1 V

-i will check...

 

My thought, and it is just that, a thought... Is the wellbrutin, something doesnt seem quite right for a normal (bad choice of word) taper...

 

It seems to me, that just about any medication combined with a benzo, turns into a problem... but thats just my take on it...

 

I hope you get it worked out as soon as possible...

 

[[Da...]]

After you see sxs increase how long does it take for them to level back off with a hold? I went back up a little bit last night, and I'm holding there but really not having a good day. Very anxious, angry, irritable. I was hoping things would be leveled out a little today but it seems worse today than yesterday.

[[Ul...]]

I'm feeling frustrated again. I tapered .00095mg for three days and on day three I woke up with really bad sxs. Now I'm going to have to hold again after only tapering .00285mg  I feel like this is going to take the rest of my life to get off of.

 

I really thought that going this slow would be a cinch! I was really happy when yesterday I was still at my baseline. Well, this is what a sxs based taper looks like I guess. I hope I don't have to hold too long though. I feel like that's all I'm doing is holding.

 

Sorry for the rant.

 

I hope the rest of you can figure out your tapers and go at a decent rate!

 

Hugs and healing. 

 

Take all the time you need to taper. Tapering is really the easy part, Jumping is the hard!

 

What do you think of this, jr (and anyone else too): I met two people this weekend who both tapered off high doses of klonopin over a period of about 3 1/2 years. They've never heard of BB's, yet they did a liquid micro taper. They started, went for it, and did what made sense to them along the way. When they got to the end, they didn't just jump. They took the amount of their last dose then waited a day before taking it again. Then they took that dose and waited two days before taking it again. Then they took that dose and waited three days before taking it again. They both stopped completely (jumped) when they were about 10-12 days between their last doses. Thoughts?

 

Thanks!

 

I had a friend on Xanax who couldn't leave the house without her med. If she forgot it for some reason , she would go back home to retrieve it. When she decided to get off, she went as long as she possibly could before taking her dose. this went on for a few months until she wasn't taking any at all. It worked for her but I was afraid to try it and done a taper instead.

 

Wow! I don't have big enough balls to try that method. Especially after being on this stuff over 23 yrs. I'm glad that worked for your friend though. I'd be a little concerned about long-term permanent damage, but I hope she avoids that pitfall. Thanks, jr!!

[[Ul...]]

 

 

What do you think of this, jr (and anyone else too): I met two people this weekend who both tapered off high doses of klonopin over a period of about 3 1/2 years. They've never heard of BB's, yet they did a liquid micro taper. They started, went for it, and did what made sense to them along the way. When they got to the end, they didn't just jump. They took the amount of their last dose then waited a day before taking it again. Then they took that dose and waited two days before taking it again. Then they took that dose and waited three days before taking it again. They both stopped completely (jumped) when they were about 10-12 days between their last doses. Thoughts?

 

Thanks!

 

Alternate day dosing to taper off the final amounts is fine.  But once you have spread your schedule to every 3-4 days, you might as well just stop.  If going 4 days off of K  doesn't bring on WD sxs, then you are no longer dependent.  Continuing periodoc dosing beyond that point is just needlessly prolonging your taper.

 

That makes sense. Heck, I just hope I live long enough to see the day when I can even attempt a jump!!

[[St...]]

Builder, or anybody....so, it's me again guys.....I am really beginning to think a lot of my sxs are from the ambien....so since I can't cut the ambien cr 6.25, is it suggested that I ask my doctor for the regular 5 mg ambien tabs and taper from there?  I just don't know how to get off this stuff.  I have increased my valium 2 mg a month ago because of seizue like sxs and that is somewhat better, but I am still feeling a lot of interddose like things during the day,,I still sleep well on it, but feel cravings for it during the day.  can it be liquid tapered, or do I weigh 10 pills and average out the weight?  Going from 6.25 to 5 is a 25 % less med, does that mean a 25% cut?  wow, that could be hefty.  suggestions please would be welcomed.  would it be better to go to the 10 mg and go to the 6.25 dose and taper from there (don't know if doc would do that)...I might just have to bite the bullet and start using the fives and taper very slowly....Kinda confuses me when people say if you cut the cr it turns into regular ambien...      I'm just trying to collect some information on all this....Thanks so much, not much info on the z drug board on cr type tablets, I have been doing a lot of reading on there....hope it's ok to post this here, I know it is where you guys hang out.....  Stella

[[Ul...]]

Thanks so much Gard.

 

I did have sxs like this before I started the benzo taper but they had started to get better. I was having lots of really nice windows and living life decently. The waves were hard but that's normal. Then things took a turn for the worse in September and I stopped having windows and started having new sxs. I had planned on waiting to taper the benzo until I was stable after the CT but when I started going the other direction my Dr and a moderator from SA both said it was tolerance w/d from the benzo and I either had to increase my dose or start tapering. The last time I increased my dose I reached tolerance to it in two weeks so increasing didn't seem like a very good idea. Plus it wold be that much more I would have to taper off of.

 

I'm getting desperate right now. I'm being tempted to do bigger cuts and get off of this stuff faster. I'm afraid of the w/d and the long term effects though.

 

I will take a look at the thread you suggested. Thank you so much 

 

Hugs, 

T

 

Wow, Miss tnt!! CT from Wellbutrin jumped off the page at me when I read that. I did the same thing following doctor's orders. It messed me up HORRIBLY. I was on my knees for a loooong time. I was totally clueless about withdrawal effects, benzo tapering etc. at the time, but looking back I can now see that there would've been no way that I could've tried to begin tapering off yet another drug. I was beyond a mess for months and months. Totally whacked out. My gut feeling has always told me that when I don't know what to do, then do nothing. That applies to everything in life for me. You and your CNS have been through so much. Maybe it would be good to just chill for a while (forget about tolerance and time), let life settle a little, and then see where things lead. Agoraphobia ate my lunch for so long, so I can totally relate to your situation. I felt like I was in prison, but it was baby steps that finally got me out. I would step out in our backyard with our dog for a few minutes. That went on for months, but eventually I got a block or two away. It was a stretch, but I finally got a little more involved with life. I still have a long way to go as far as agoraphobia, but it's better now than a year ago. Maybe it's rubber band time...just stretch yourself a little without breaking. Another thing that helped me during that time was Skype counseling with a fantastic therapist. Going in person was out of the question, but he was so understanding and incredibly helpful. Just a thought.

 

Many hugs and prayers coming your way!!

 

Jeff

[[...]]

Wow, I can't thank everyone enough for all your replies.

 

Jeff it seems like we have more and more in common!

 

I came to the conclusion that I am in a wave from my CT. There is no way that such a tiny cut could have caused such big sxs and for so long. I agree with you Jeff that I need to chill for a little while. I'm going to hold for a bit. I'm not sure how long. I have an appointment with my pdoc tomorrow so I'll discuss it with him and with my ever patient husband. I'm wondering if my tapering has caused this wave from the CT or if it would have happened anyway. I've seen that a lot of people get hit with waves around three, six, and nine months. Tomorrow will be nine months to the day. I got hit pretty hard at three months too. I've been in tolerance with the benzo for eight of those months.

 

Jeff, how long did you wait after your CT before you started your benzo taper?

 

I really wanted to say more to everyone who left me posts, they were all so helpful and made me feel so supported. Thank you all so much  You guys are the best. I have to get to bed now or my husband will turn into a pumpkin

 

Hugs 

T

 

 

Hugs

[[st...]]

SG57 + Builder

SG you helped me with my sons dry cutting about 12 months ago and we are down to approx 11.8mg valium.

He sustained a concussion 7 months and has residual symptoms that are overlapping benzo withdrawal. We seem to have hit a wall as Ben is not coping in any sense of the word. Holding taper at the moment.

He is dosing twice daily, even doses and is experiencing accute typ symptoms. Would it wise to updose to 12mg and change dosage to 3 times a day instead of twice daily to stabalise his symptoms. We have held for 2 weeks and his symptoms are getting worse. We are a bit conflicted on what to focus on between the two. He needs more stability and was hoping maybe SG or Builder could help guide me with this and if maybe a switch to LT might be smoother.

 

Thanks in advance

Dave

[[...]]

SG57 + Builder

SG you helped me with my sons dry cutting about 12 months ago and we are down to approx 11.8mg valium.

He sustained a concussion 7 months and has residual symptoms that are overlapping benzo withdrawal. We seem to have hit a wall as Ben is not coping in any sense of the word. Holding taper at the moment.

He is dosing twice daily, even doses and is experiencing accute typ symptoms. Would it wise to updose to 12mg and change dosage to 3 times a day instead of twice daily to stabalise his symptoms. We have held for 2 weeks and his symptoms are getting worse. We are a bit conflicted on what to focus on between the two. He needs more stability and was hoping maybe SG or Builder could help guide me with this and if maybe a switch to LT might be smoother.

 

Thanks in advance

Dave

 

I remember and have wondered how he was doing.  Often, no news is good news when tapering so I am sorry to hear he has derailed.  I forget where he started and how fast he was moving down.  From your description, it sounds like he needs to stop tapering and get control over symptoms.  That could mean a long hold or an updose depending on how strong they are and how long they have been occurring.  Going back to the last dose he felt good at is one popular strategy.  I doubt increasing the number of doses would help.  As I recall, you have a highly accurate scale so there may no be much advantage to liquid in this case.

[[ga...]]

T, I seem to recall reading on the c/t and protracted w/d forums of some people who had worse waves at certain points after thinking they were getting better. So, you may indeed be in a w/d wave from the c/t. You might find some helpful stories over there. Not for the faint-hearted, though. I don't read there any more.

 

Gard

[[bu...]]

1) If he was OK at 12mg, I would updose to 12 for 7-10 days, and see how he responds.

 

2)  It is unlikely that a switch to 3X day dosing will give any benefit.  2X day with V is usally good enough, and many folks do fine on 1X.

 

3)  Liquid will almost certainly be more tolerable.

[[Pl...]]

This is so embarrassing to ask but I have to in spite of it....

 

I get confused with decimal places and numbers bad....especially in this state.....

 

Is .007 mg more than 0.0029 mg?  I'm assuming yes... Because if you round .0029 it would be .003? Thus making .007 greater? Super embarrassment thank you...

[[jr...]]

This is so embarrassing to ask but I have to in spite of it....

 

I get confused with decimal places and numbers bad....especially in this state.....

 

Is .007 mg more than 0.0029 mg?  I'm assuming yes... Because if you round .0029 it would be .003? Thus making .007 greater? Super embarrassment thank you...

 

You are absolutely.............correct!