Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[bu...]]

Propylene glycol is a very commonly used additive in foods and personal care products (salad dressings, toothpaste, cake mixes, many, many more.  It is also one of the most common solvents used in both Rx and OTC liquid meds, cold remedies, liquid benzos, etc.

 

It should be readily available at major pharmacies, specialty food stores, and is definitely available from Amazon.

 

[[Ca...]]

Thanks InnerS and Builder...

will look into it... We WILL find a way..!!!

 

Builder, if it comes to it,

And remembering consistency over accuracy, etc..

-would a plain water suspension, with care taken with agitation, be a realistic thing for 2v and below?

And would the mix have a similar shelf life to vodka mix?

Thanks.

 

[[bu...]]

Thanks InnerS and Builder...

will look into it... We WILL find a way..!!!

 

Builder, if it comes to it,

And remembering consistency over accuracy, etc..

-would a plain water suspension, with care taken with agitation, be a realistic thing for 2v and below?

And would the mix have a similar shelf life to vodka mix?

Thanks.

 

Plain water won't work.  If you want to do a suspension,  use a suspension fluid like OraPlus/OraSweet.  Because of its very low viscosity, water does not make an effective suspension agent.

 

PG has a l-o-o-o-ng shelf life.  Don't worry about the shelf life of a PG mix.

[[ga...]]

Thanks InnerS and Builder...

will look into it... We WILL find a way..!!!

 

Builder, if it comes to it,

And remembering consistency over accuracy, etc..

-would a plain water suspension, with care taken with agitation, be a realistic thing for 2v and below?

And would the mix have a similar shelf life to vodka mix?

Thanks.

 

 

Plain water won't work.  If you want to do a suspension,  use a suspension fluid like OraPlus/OraSweet.  Because of its very low viscosity, water does not make an effective suspension agent.

 

PG has a l-o-o-o-ng shelf life.  Don't worry about the shelf life of a PG mix.

 

I agree that it is risky to just suspend with water and depend on shaking it up perfectly. Some people have done it, but it is risky. I would go with the PG. Just buy it on amazon. My original liquid Xanax came with PG as the solvent. It said that once you opened the bottle, you should use it in 90 days.

[[ho...]]

Thanks Hope, the Almond milk from our supermarket is less than 1% total fat, and a sip made me gag... -next option lol...

There will be a way, even if i have to Suspend in water...

Micro or bust.. Im not licking fingers for dust... -thats an opiate thing...

I had called some compounding pharmacies to pick their brains about what solvents they used and all said Ora plus which has pg in it. I did order a bottle a while back from Amazon called something?  essentials. Food grade usp 99.9%. There's a bunch on Amazon

[[ga...]]

Thanks Hope, the Almond milk from our supermarket is less than 1% total fat, and a sip made me gag... -next option lol...

There will be a way, even if i have to Suspend in water...

Micro or bust.. Im not licking fingers for dust... -thats an opiate thing...

I had called some compounding pharmacies to pick their brains about what solvents they used and all said Ora plus which has pg in it. I did order a bottle a while back from Amazon called something?  essentials. Food grade usp 99.9%. There's a bunch on Amazon

 

I think somebody steered you wrong and/or possibly didn't understand your questions. Ora Plus is not a solvent and does not contain PG. It is a suspending agent.

 

A solvent (such as alcohol or PG) makes a solution. When the benzo is dissolved in the solvent it stays dissolved and will not settle out again. You then add water to dilute it and it stays in solution.

 

Ora Plus is a suspending agent and makes a very stable suspension. The tiny particles are suspended in the suspension. There is no chemical change. They are not dissolved. Water can also be used to make a suspension, but not a stable suspension, so the particles will quickly settle to the bottom again after shaking. Ora Plus is "thicker" (sorry, can't come up with a better word) than water in that it will hold the particles in the liquid and keep them from settling. So you shake it up and the particles stay pretty evenly distributed. I think it is for a very long time, but I've never used it.

 

So, there are two ways to deal with liquefying. 1. Make a solution. 2. Make a suspension.

1. A solution needs a solvent such as fat, alcohol, or PG.

2. A suspension can be done in just about any liquid, but if you use something like Ora Plus, you don't need to worry that your suspension is uneven. It is made to hold particles evenly and for a long time.

 

edit: According to builder who knows more about proper terminology than I do, if the water only holds the particles evenly for about 2 seconds, that's not a true suspension. And that is why Ora Plus is so much safer than water or juice or other low viscosity liquids.

[[...]]

Thanks Hope, the Almond milk from our supermarket is less than 1% total fat, and a sip made me gag... -next option lol...

There will be a way, even if i have to Suspend in water...

Micro or bust.. Im not licking fingers for dust... -thats an opiate thing...

I had called some compounding pharmacies to pick their brains about what solvents they used and all said Ora plus which has pg in it. I did order a bottle a while back from Amazon called something?  essentials. Food grade usp 99.9%. There's a bunch on Amazon

 

Great summary.

I think somebody steered you wrong and/or possibly didn't understand your questions. Ora Plus is not a solvent and does not contain PG. It is a suspending agent.

 

A solvent (such as alcohol or PG) makes a solution. When the benzo is dissolved in the solvent it stays dissolved and will not settle out again. You then add water to dilute it and it stays in solution.

 

Ora Plus is a suspending agent and makes a very stable suspension. The tiny particles are suspended in the suspension. There is no chemical change. They are not dissolved. Water can also be used to make a suspension, but not a stable suspension, so the particles will quickly settle to the bottom again after shaking. Ora Plus is "thicker" (sorry, can't come up with a better word) than water in that it will hold the particles in the liquid and keep them from settling. So you shake it up and the particles stay pretty evenly distributed. I think it is for a very long time, but I've never used it.

 

So, there are two ways to deal with liquefying. 1. Make a solution. 2. Make a suspension.

1. A solution needs a solvent such as fat, alcohol, or PG.

2. A suspension can be done in just about any liquid, but if you use something like Ora Plus, you don't need to worry that your suspension is uneven. It is made to hold particles evenly and for a long time.

[[ho...]]

Thanks Hope, the Almond milk from our supermarket is less than 1% total fat, and a sip made me gag... -next option lol...

There will be a way, even if i have to Suspend in water...

Micro or bust.. Im not licking fingers for dust... -thats an opiate thing...

I had called some compounding pharmacies to pick their brains about what solvents they used and all said Ora plus which has pg in it. I did order a bottle a while back from Amazon called something?  essentials. Food grade usp 99.9%. There's a bunch on Amazon

 

I think somebody steered you wrong and/or possibly didn't understand your questions. Ora Plus is not a solvent and does not contain PG. It is a suspending agent.

 

A solvent (such as alcohol or PG) makes a solution. When the benzo is dissolved in the solvent it stays dissolved and will not settle out again. You then add water to dilute it and it stays in solution.

 

Ora Plus is a suspending agent and makes a very stable suspension. The tiny particles are suspended in the suspension. There is no chemical change. They are not dissolved. Water can also be used to make a suspension, but not a stable suspension, so the particles will quickly settle to the bottom again after shaking. Ora Plus is "thicker" (sorry, can't come up with a better word) than water in that it will hold the particles in the liquid and keep them from settling. So you shake it up and the particles stay pretty evenly distributed. I think it is for a very long time, but I've never used it.

 

So, there are two ways to deal with liquefying. 1. Make a solution. 2. Make a suspension.

1. A solution needs a solvent such as fat, alcohol, or PG.

2. A suspension can be done in just about any liquid, but if you use something like Ora Plus, you don't need to worry that your suspension is uneven. It is made to hold particles evenly and for a long time.

yes I understand the difference between a solution and a suspension. When I asked these people what liquid I should've said in last post, they used to make their compounded klonopin they said Ora plus. I asked if it had pg in it, they said yes. I am not able to get compounded but I just wanted to hear what they had to say. Of course they were clueless about milk. When I looked at the prices of Ora plus I didn't research any further. One said they use Almond oil as the base. So I don't know, they all seemed clueless really that I would even want to compound klonopin as its usually done for elderly patients, but none of them understood about withdrawal either. One even told me that the amount of klonopin in a pill is the size of a pin head and why would I want to even compound it. I just gave up calling after that.

[[...]]

Cantfly I didn't like the taste of the almond milk either. The cashew milk tastes better to me. Also even though it is only 2g of fat that's 18 cal of the 25 in the unsweetened milk which ends up being 72% fat so the K dissolves very easily in it.

 

Could give it a taste. If you don't like it at least you tried it 

 

The thing I like about the milk is that I only have to measure one liquid toss my meds in and then let it be until I need it. Shake it up and go. Easy peasy!! I understand about the taste issue though. I can't stand the taste of cows milk and couldn't imagine using that for years, ick 

 

I hope you find what works best for you. It's all such an individual thing.

 

Hugs 

 

 

 

 

[[...]]

yes I understand the difference between a solution and a suspension. When I asked these people what liquid I should've said in last post, they used to make their compounded klonopin they said Ora plus. I asked if it had pg in it, they said yes. I am not able to get compounded but I just wanted to hear what they had to say. Of course they were clueless about milk. When I looked at the prices of Ora plus I didn't research any further. One said they use Almond oil as the base. So I don't know, they all seemed clueless really that I would even want to compound klonopin as its usually done for elderly patients, but none of them understood about withdrawal either. One even told me that the amount of klonopin in a pill is the size of a pin head and why would I want to even compound it. I just gave up calling after that.

 

You can Google Ora Plus and get the exact ingredient list.

 

[[ho...]]

yes I understand the difference between a solution and a suspension. When I asked these people what liquid I should've said in last post, they used to make their compounded klonopin they said Ora plus. I asked if it had pg in it, they said yes. I am not able to get compounded but I just wanted to hear what they had to say. Of course they were clueless about milk. When I looked at the prices of Ora plus I didn't research any further. One said they use Almond oil as the base. So I don't know, they all seemed clueless really that I would even want to compound klonopin as its usually done for elderly patients, but none of them understood about withdrawal either. One even told me that the amount of klonopin in a pill is the size of a pin head and why would I want to even compound it. I just gave up calling after that.

 

You can Google Ora Plus and get the exact ingredient list.

when i looked up ora plus on amazon its so expensive. i dont think i could afford to use that monthly. one person said on here they would have to use i forgot how many bottles a month and it was a lot. but i never really researched the method to use it.

[[ho...]]

Cantfly I didn't like the taste of the almond milk either. The cashew milk tastes better to me. Also even though it is only 2g of fat that's 18 cal of the 25 in the unsweetened milk which ends up being 72% fat so the K dissolves very easily in it.

 

Could give it a taste. If you don't like it at least you tried it 

 

The thing I like about the milk is that I only have to measure one liquid toss my meds in and then let it be until I need it. Shake it up and go. Easy peasy!! I understand about the taste issue though. I can't stand the taste of cows milk and couldn't imagine using that for years, ick 

 

I hope you find what works best for you. It's all such an individual thing.

 

Hugs 

i didnt like the taste of almond milk either but grew to like it. im not a big milk lover either. however cashew milk seems like it would be yummy. i did not realize what you said about it having such high fat content tntd. glad its working for you 

[[Ca...]]

Thanks everyone, great answers...

Will have a look when im in a decent sized town next...

I asked for cashew milk local and got such a blank look... we have cows around here... lol

Much Amazon stuff cant be imported to Australia now... trade regulations... we have to get it through our own distributors, even if its the same manufacturer... but i will find it, no worries...

PG should be easy enough to find to try.. i hope...

 

Again, thanks... much appreciated...

 

[[bu...]]

ORAPLUS

 

"Ingredients

Purified water, microcrystalline cellulose,

carboxymethylcellulose sodium, xanthan gum,

carrageenan, calcium sulfate, trisodium

phosphate, citric acid and sodium phosphate as

buffers, dimethicone antifoam emulsion.

Preserved with methylparaben and potassium "

 

http://www.perrigo.com/files/rx/pdfs/pds173-Ora-Plus%20Sell%20Sheet.pdf

 

 

No propylene glycol.

 

[[bu...]]

 

 

I think somebody steered you wrong and/or possibly didn't understand your questions. Ora Plus is not a solvent and does not contain PG. It is a suspending agent.

 

A solvent (such as alcohol or PG) makes a solution. When the benzo is dissolved in the solvent it stays dissolved and will not settle out again. You then add water to dilute it and it stays in solution.

 

Ora Plus is a suspending agent and makes a very stable suspension. The tiny particles are suspended in the suspension. There is no chemical change. They are not dissolved. Water can also be used to make a suspension, but not a stable suspension, so the particles will quickly settle to the bottom again after shaking. Ora Plus is "thicker" (sorry, can't come up with a better word) than water in that it will hold the particles in the liquid and keep them from settling. So you shake it up and the particles stay pretty evenly distributed. I think it is for a very long time, but I've never used it.

 

So, there are two ways to deal with liquefying. 1. Make a solution. 2. Make a suspension.

1. A solution needs a solvent such as fat, alcohol, or PG.

2. A suspension can be done in just about any liquid, *but if you use something like Ora Plus, you don't need to worry that your suspension is uneven. It is made to hold particles evenly and for a long time.

 

:thumbsup: ;)

 

Just one minor correction. Low viscosity liquids, like water, do NOT make effective suspension agents. If the dry material is able to "settle out" (drift to the bottom) or conversely, float to the top, then that liquid is NOT a "suspension agent".  In order to be suspended, the liquid must hold the dry material in place.

[[ga...]]

 

yes I understand the difference between a solution and a suspension. When I asked these people what liquid I should've said in last post, they used to make their compounded klonopin they said Ora plus. I asked if it had pg in it, they said yes. I am not able to get compounded but I just wanted to hear what they had to say. Of course they were clueless about milk. When I looked at the prices of Ora plus I didn't research any further. One said they use Almond oil as the base. So I don't know, they all seemed clueless really that I would even want to compound klonopin as its usually done for elderly patients, but none of them understood about withdrawal either. One even told me that the amount of klonopin in a pill is the size of a pin head and why would I want to even compound it. I just gave up calling after that.

 

Yup!  Don't tell, but I actually risk a 2-second water suspension with my Seroquel.

[[ga...]]

 

 

I think somebody steered you wrong and/or possibly didn't understand your questions. Ora Plus is not a solvent and does not contain PG. It is a suspending agent.

 

A solvent (such as alcohol or PG) makes a solution. When the benzo is dissolved in the solvent it stays dissolved and will not settle out again. You then add water to dilute it and it stays in solution.

 

Ora Plus is a suspending agent and makes a very stable suspension. The tiny particles are suspended in the suspension. There is no chemical change. They are not dissolved. Water can also be used to make a suspension, but not a stable suspension, so the particles will quickly settle to the bottom again after shaking. Ora Plus is "thicker" (sorry, can't come up with a better word) than water in that it will hold the particles in the liquid and keep them from settling. So you shake it up and the particles stay pretty evenly distributed. I think it is for a very long time, but I've never used it.

 

So, there are two ways to deal with liquefying. 1. Make a solution. 2. Make a suspension.

1. A solution needs a solvent such as fat, alcohol, or PG.

2. A suspension can be done in just about any liquid, *but if you use something like Ora Plus, you don't need to worry that your suspension is uneven. It is made to hold particles evenly and for a long time.

 

:thumbsup: ;)

 

Just one minor correction. Low viscosity liquids, like water, do NOT make effective suspension agents. If the dry material is able to "settle out" (drift to the bottom) or conversely, float to the top, then that liquid is NOT a "suspension agent".  In order to be suspended, the liquid must hold the dry material in place.

 

Yes, I should have emphasized that the water will not hold the particles in suspension for any length of time, as in only about 2 seconds. But it is a suspension for about 2 seconds, isn't it? Or is that cheating? I should go back and change that.

 

I still use water to suspend my Q. I shake like crazy and draw out my measurement very quickly while the particles are still suspended. It took a lot of practice to be able to do it fast enough. I wouldn't do it if I had another option.

 

I seem to recall that people used to suspend benzos in water and quickly measure their doses before the dissolving method became well known. Even so, I would never recommend water suspension if you had any other choice!

[[bu...]]

 

 

I think somebody steered you wrong and/or possibly didn't understand your questions. Ora Plus is not a solvent and does not contain PG. It is a suspending agent.

 

A solvent (such as alcohol or PG) makes a solution. When the benzo is dissolved in the solvent it stays dissolved and will not settle out again. You then add water to dilute it and it stays in solution.

 

Ora Plus is a suspending agent and makes a very stable suspension. The tiny particles are suspended in the suspension. There is no chemical change. They are not dissolved. Water can also be used to make a suspension, but not a stable suspension, so the particles will quickly settle to the bottom again after shaking. Ora Plus is "thicker" (sorry, can't come up with a better word) than water in that it will hold the particles in the liquid and keep them from settling. So you shake it up and the particles stay pretty evenly distributed. I think it is for a very long time, but I've never used it.

 

So, there are two ways to deal with liquefying. 1. Make a solution. 2. Make a suspension.

1. A solution needs a solvent such as fat, alcohol, or PG.

2. A suspension can be done in just about any liquid, *but if you use something like Ora Plus, you don't need to worry that your suspension is uneven. It is made to hold particles evenly and for a long time.

 

:thumbsup: ;)

 

Just one minor correction. Low viscosity liquids, like water, do NOT make effective suspension agents. If the dry material is able to "settle out" (drift to the bottom) or conversely, float to the top, then that liquid is NOT a "suspension agent".  In order to be suspended, the liquid must hold the dry material in place.

 

Yes, I should have emphasized that the water will not hold the particles in suspension for any length of time, as in only about 2 seconds. But it is a suspension for about 2 seconds, isn't it? Or is that cheating? I should go back and change that.

 

I still use water to suspend my Q. I shake like crazy and draw out my measurement very quickly while the particles are still suspended. It took a lot of practice to be able to do it fast enough. I wouldn't do it if I had another option.

 

I seem to recall that people used to suspend benzos in water and quickly measure their doses before the dissolving method became well known. Even so, I would never recommend water suspension if you had any other choice!

 

And you always have some other choice!

 

Remember, there are many different ingredients in a tablet.  The "particles" you see may or may not actually be the med's active ingredient.  The behavior of the inactive ingredients really doesn't necessarily tell you anything about the only ingredient you actually care about.

[[ho...]]

 

 

I think somebody steered you wrong and/or possibly didn't understand your questions. Ora Plus is not a solvent and does not contain PG. It is a suspending agent.

 

A solvent (such as alcohol or PG) makes a solution. When the benzo is dissolved in the solvent it stays dissolved and will not settle out again. You then add water to dilute it and it stays in solution.

 

Ora Plus is a suspending agent and makes a very stable suspension. The tiny particles are suspended in the suspension. There is no chemical change. They are not dissolved. Water can also be used to make a suspension, but not a stable suspension, so the particles will quickly settle to the bottom again after shaking. Ora Plus is "thicker" (sorry, can't come up with a better word) than water in that it will hold the particles in the liquid and keep them from settling. So you shake it up and the particles stay pretty evenly distributed. I think it is for a very long time, but I've never used it.

 

So, there are two ways to deal with liquefying. 1. Make a solution. 2. Make a suspension.

1. A solution needs a solvent such as fat, alcohol, or PG.

2. A suspension can be done in just about any liquid, *but if you use something like Ora Plus, you don't need to worry that your suspension is uneven. It is made to hold particles evenly and for a long time.

 

:thumbsup: ;)

 

Just one minor correction. Low viscosity liquids, like water, do NOT make effective suspension agents. If the dry material is able to "settle out" (drift to the bottom) or conversely, float to the top, then that liquid is NOT a "suspension agent".  In order to be suspended, the liquid must hold the dry material in place.

 

Yes, I should have emphasized that the water will not hold the particles in suspension for any length of time, as in only about 2 seconds. But it is a suspension for about 2 seconds, isn't it? Or is that cheating? I should go back and change that.

 

I still use water to suspend my Q. I shake like crazy and draw out my measurement very quickly while the particles are still suspended. It took a lot of practice to be able to do it fast enough. I wouldn't do it if I had another option.

 

I seem to recall that people used to suspend benzos in water and quickly measure their doses before the dissolving method became well known. Even so, I would never recommend water suspension if you had any other choice!

yes thats how all the old timers ive spoke to did it. just water. some on youtube do it too.

[[ho...]]

ORAPLUS

 

"Ingredients

Purified water, microcrystalline cellulose,

carboxymethylcellulose sodium, xanthan gum,

carrageenan, calcium sulfate, trisodium

phosphate, citric acid and sodium phosphate as

buffers, dimethicone antifoam emulsion.

Preserved with methylparaben and potassium "

 

http://www.perrigo.com/files/rx/pdfs/pds173-Ora-Plus%20Sell%20Sheet.pdf

 

 

No propylene glycol.

what? then what are they talking about? i swear if i get one more contradiction. also one said ora plus and glycerin i forgot to put. but one said they get pure klonopin powder from ppga (initials probably wrong)? i remember one post saying that a bottle of the ora plus would last much longer than one poster expected. is it possible to use ora plus with the tablets? or do you need the pure powder like the compounder said they used?

[[ga...]]

 

And you always have some other choice!

 

Remember, there are many different ingredients in a tablet.  The "particles" you see may or may not actually be the med's active ingredient.  The behavior of the inactive ingredients really doesn't necessarily tell you anything about the only ingredient you actually care about.

 

Nope, not for Seroquel. Can't afford Ora Plus and nothing I can find will dissolve Seroquel. (Evil drug.) So I use a water titration method Anne taught me by making a video for me to show me how to crush and suspend Q in water then draw it up very quickly. It's similar to those youtube videos Hope mentioned. I found those interesting, but there were so many methods they made my head spin! I feel much more confident with my personal video made by a chemist.

 

But, yes, for benzos, there are ways to dissolve them that are pretty cheap. That's definitely a better choice and what I use for my librium, good old vodka, 3 times/day. And I have hardly had a drink in my life! Well, OK, I have hardly had a drink since college. You should have seen the look I got when I went into the liquor department and asked where to find the cheapest 80 proof vodka they had.

 

Yes, those darn particles. They settle out very quickly. I actually have no idea if the Q is still suspended or if it's settling out as fast as the binders and fillers. So I just draw up very, very quickly! And if I'm too spacy to do it, my non-drugged daughter does it. Always good to have a non-drugged assistant!

[[ga...]]

ORAPLUS

 

"Ingredients

Purified water, microcrystalline cellulose,

carboxymethylcellulose sodium, xanthan gum,

carrageenan, calcium sulfate, trisodium

phosphate, citric acid and sodium phosphate as

buffers, dimethicone antifoam emulsion.

Preserved with methylparaben and potassium "

 

http://www.perrigo.com/files/rx/pdfs/pds173-Ora-Plus%20Sell%20Sheet.pdf

 

 

No propylene glycol.

what? then what are they talking about? i swear if i get one more contradiction. also one said ora plus and glycerin i forgot to put. but one said they get pure klonopin powder from ppga (initials probably wrong)? i remember one post saying that a bottle of the ora plus would last much longer than one poster expected. is it possible to use ora plus with the tablets? or do you need the pure powder like the compounder said they used?

 

I think there are people who start with a tablet and somehow use OraPlus, but I will defer to the MT gurus on the method.

 

You're talking about K tablets, right?

 

[[bu...]]

  what? then what are they talking about? i swear if i get one more contradiction. also one said ora plus and glycerin i forgot to put. but one said they get pure klonopin powder from ppga (initials probably wrong)? i remember one post saying that a bottle of the ora plus would last much longer than one poster expected. is it possible to use ora plus with the tablets? or do you need the pure powder like the compounder said they used?

 

It will work just fine with tablets that have been crushed into a powder.  All a suspension does is hold particles in place.  It really doesn't matter what the particles are.

[[...]]

Nope, not for Seroquel. Can't afford Ora Plus and nothing I can find will dissolve Seroquel. (Evil drug.) So I use a water titration method Anne taught me by making a video for me to show me how to crush and suspend Q in water then draw it up very quickly.

 

It would not surprise me if either PG or alcohol will dissolve Seroquel, but we were unable to determine that from info on the Web. Just an idea - you could try emailing or calling generic drug companies who make it and ask what dissolves it, if you wanted to dissolve it. It sounds like your current method is working, but I wanted to mention this.

[[bu...]]

Quetiapine

Solubility in water 3.29 mg/mL (20 °C

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quetiapine