Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[In...]]

 

 

Maybe you can give a little more info.  How 'off' are you?  How are you determining that you're over/under?  I'm not questioning your skill, I'm just trying to better understand what's going on.  Also, is the 'bowl' being used as a cup?

 

fwiw - a 100 ml grad cylinder is probably only going to be accurate +/- 1-2 milliliters for most users.  For really critical volumes, labs use volumetric flasks.  The neck is much skinnier so the accuracy is much higher.  But grad cylinders are much more expensive than grad cylinders.  Same for syringes.  A 60 ml syringe is not going to be any more accurate than the grad cylinder, so +/- 1-2 mls.  Labs use graduated pipets to measure volumes.  Again, much more expensive.  Much as some folks really worry about being super careful/accurate, I don't think tapering should require that level of precision - especially if you're tapering a benzo with a moderate to long half-life.  Minor variations will average out.  What you're doing is probably fine, but I (we) are certainly happy to review what you do and what you see.

 

I am *usually* short in the last bowl (all three are the same size glass Pyrex bowls with lids) by about +/- 5ml.  One day I was over by about 10ml, so I just evened it out between the bowls.  I am willing to do whatever I need to, to be sure I am doing it correctly.  So far, I've just let it go, knowing I'm using the same method and trying to get them as close to even as possible.  I even put a little water in the bowl and drink it to ensure I get all the meds. 

I use 3ml of PG to dissolve my 5mg valium Tab.  Then, I mix that with 497ml of water and *try* to get three even doses.  I take one 5mg pill with each dose.  I was taking 4 uneven doses, but wanted to start cutting, so I switched to 3 and liquid at the same time.

I know that I could keep whatever I 'cut' when I start that (hopefully in a week or sooner), but what would I do with it?  I'm only making one batch a day since I'm afraid I'll mess it up and end up with no dose if I make more. Lol. 

[[In...]]

Okay.  Today is day 14  of my DLMT from Valium.  I haven't cut yet, just switched to 5mg pill and 1.66mg in liquid per dose. 

Since I have switched, I have NEVER been able to measure out the exact amount I'm supposed to have.  I use the same equipment and same syringes.  I'm afraid to make more then one day at a time, since I cannot seem to get 3 equal bowls (when measured out with syringe), but my three bowls look relatively equal.  And if they don't, I try to even them up.  How can I fix this?  I use a graduated cylinder, I have a 60ml syringe, a 10ml syringe, and a 1ml syringe.  I first just used the 10ml and the 1ml, buy that got tedious, as I had to pull liquid 16x per bowl.  Then I used the 1ml for the .66.  Then, I bought a 60ml syringe from a vet's office.  I used it to pull 60ml 2x, then 46ml.  But, as I said, neither way has ever produced exactly what I should be able to measure out.

  How do I fix this?  I know how to use a cylinder and read syringes.  I don't HAVE ANY idea what's wrong.  When I get stable enough and want to pull, I want to be sure I am doing it accurately. 

 

Thanks.

 

It really doesn't matter.  A consistent procedure is much more important than precision and accuracy.  One of the big advantages of dilute liquid is it reduces the significance of measurement error.  For example, if you are using a 1mg=10ml solution, and if you make a measurement error of .5ml, that's only .05mg difference.  The tablets you have been taking have a far greater tablet-to-tablet variation, typically +/- 5%.

 

And if you make one batch to last 10-14 days instead of a daily batch, that actually insures there will be minimum daily  variation, since that batch will be the same from start to finish.

 

Don't sweat the small stuff.

 

 

So, if I make a longer solution, my chances of it evening out are greater?  I was afraid I'd get to the last day and be screwed because I had no liquid! That's my only worry.  I agree with what you told me when I started this... Daily prep is tedious, builder!  Lol. 

[[bu...]]

 

 

 

I know that I could keep whatever I 'cut' when I start that (hopefully in a week or sooner), but what would I do with it?  I'm only making one batch a day since I'm afraid I'll mess it up and end up with no dose if I make more. Lol.

 

You don't "keep your cut"!

 

  You make a batch of liquid and each day you draw out your dose and drink it.

 

For example, dissolve 10mg in 100ml liquid

 

If your taking 5mg tablets and 1.66 liquid, and you want to cut .01mg/day...

 

 

5mg tablet    1.66mg (16.6ml) liquid

5mg tablet    1.65mg (16.5ml) liquid

5mg tablet    1.64mg (16.4ml) liquid

etc...

[Guest [ba...]]

Your errors are consistent with your measuring devices.  Again, I wouldn't worry so much about precision.  What you're doing is fine.  Builder is correct that the errors in pill weights are as large (or larger) than your errors. 

 

I do some analytical chemistry (I co-own a testing lab and work at a university).  There's always some error no matter how expensive the equipment or how skilled the hands.  Just try to relax about the variance.

 

Bigger batches will tend to even out the variance.

[[bu...]]

 

 

 

So, if I make a longer solution, my chances of it evening out are greater?  I was afraid I'd get to the last day and be screwed because I had no liquid! That's my only worry.  I agree with what you told me when I started this... Daily prep is tedious, builder!  Lol.

 

If you dissolve 10mg in 100ml liquid, then the concentration will always be 1mg=10ml .  It will have the same strength on the first day you take it, and on the very last dose in that batch.  It will be far more consistent than the pill you take.

[[bu...]]

Your errors are consistent with your measuring devices.  Again, I wouldn't worry so much about precision.  What you're doing is fine.  Builder is correct that the errors in pill weights are as large (or larger) than your errors. 

 

I do some analytical chemistry (I co-own a testing lab and work at a university).  There's always some error no matter how expensive the equipment or how skilled the hands.  Just try to relax about the variance.

 

Bigger batches will tend to even out the variance.

 

:thumbsup:

[[In...]]

 

 

 

So, if I make a longer solution, my chances of it evening out are greater?  I was afraid I'd get to the last day and be screwed because I had no liquid! That's my only worry.  I agree with what you told me when I started this... Daily prep is tedious, builder!  Lol.

 

If you dissolve 10mg in 100ml liquid, then the concentration will always be 1mg=10ml .  It will have the same strength on the first day you take it, and on the very last dose in that batch.  It will be far more consistent than the pill you take.

 

So, instead of 5mg in 500ml, I should do 10mg in 100ml? How much PG would I use in that case? 

[[In...]]

Your errors are consistent with your measuring devices.  Again, I wouldn't worry so much about precision.  What you're doing is fine.  Builder is correct that the errors in pill weights are as large (or larger) than your errors. 

 

I do some analytical chemistry (I co-own a testing lab and work at a university).  There's always some error no matter how expensive the equipment or how skilled the hands.  Just try to relax about the variance.

 

Bigger batches will tend to even out the variance.

 

Thank you for your help.  You are making me feel much better.  Perhaps I will make a day day batch and see if that helps then work your to 5 days, etc.  I appreciate it. 

[[ga...]]

 

 

 

So, if I make a longer solution, my chances of it evening out are greater?  I was afraid I'd get to the last day and be screwed because I had no liquid! That's my only worry.  I agree with what you told me when I started this... Daily prep is tedious, builder!  Lol.

 

If you dissolve 10mg in 100ml liquid, then the concentration will always be 1mg=10ml .  It will have the same strength on the first day you take it, and on the very last dose in that batch.  It will be far more consistent than the pill you take.

 

So, instead of 5mg in 500ml, I should do 10mg in 100ml? How much PG would I use in that case?

 

I think that was just an example builder gave you to make a point. If your dilution of 5mg in 500ml is working for you, just stick with it. Consistency is important.

[[bu...]]

 

 

So, instead of 5mg in 500ml, I should do 10mg in 100ml? How much PG would I use in that case?

 

If you want do 1mg=100ml, that's fine.  You really don't need that much dilution, especially with Valium, but you can do that if you choose.  Just choose whichever ratio you think will be more convenient.  '

 

But I would make at least a 10mg batch.  At 1.66mg/day, that's only approx a 6 day batch.

 

If you want to do 1mg=10ml, the ratios will be 10mg V + 20ml PG + 80ml water.

 

 

 

[[bu...]]

 

I think that was just an example builder gave you to make a point. If your dilution of 5mg in 500ml is working for you, just stick with it. Consistency is important.

 

:thumbsup:

[[In...]]

 

 

So, instead of 5mg in 500ml, I should do 10mg in 100ml? How much PG would I use in that case?

 

If you want do 1mg=100ml, that's fine.  You really don't need that much dilution, especially with Valium, but you can do that if you choose.  Just choose whichever ratio you think will be more convenient.  '

 

But I would make at least a 10mg batch.  At 1.66mg/day, that's only approx a 6 day batch.

 

If you want to do 1mg=10ml, the ratios will be 10mg V + 20ml PG + 80ml water.

 

No, I take 5mg of valium liquid a day.  I take 1.66mg (166.67ml) 3x a day. 

7am 5mg pill plus 166.66ml liquid

3pm 5mg pill  plus 166.66ml liquid

11pm 5mg pill plus 166.66ml liquid.

 

So, 10mg will only last me 2 days. 

[[bu...]]

 

No, I take 5mg of valium liquid a day.  I take 1.66mg (166.67ml) 3x a day. 

7am 5mg pill plus 166.66ml liquid

3pm 5mg pill  plus 166.66ml liquid

11pm 5mg pill plus 166.66ml liquid.

 

So, 10mg will only last me 2 days.

 

Then I would do 50mg V + 100ml PG + 400ml water.  Thats a 1mg=10ml solution, and it will be about a 10 day supply.

[[ho...]]

I was going to buy the karter scientic graduated cylinder and wrote the seller about the accuracy. This is the response I got. I know we are not dealing with the volumetric flasks which are the gold standard for measuring but this is what they wrote me: (which seems ridiculous because why use them if they're that off, but here's what they said)

Hello,

 

Thank you for your interest in our products.

 

In general, the 'tolerance' or variability in accuracy is approximately 50% to 100% of the graduation interval.

 

So for an item that has a graduation interval of 1ml, it could be 0.5 to 1ml.

 

For an item that has a graduation interval of 20ml, it could be 10ml to 20ml.

 

Kindest Regards,

Customer Service

[[In...]]

I was going to buy the kaiser scientic graduated cylinder and wrote the seller about the accuracy. This is the response I got. I know we are not dealing with the volumetric flasks which are the gold standard for measuring but this is what they wrote me: (which seems ridiculous because why use them if they're that off, but here's what they said)

Hello,

 

Thank you for your interest in our products.

 

In general, the 'tolerance' or variability in accuracy is approximately 50% to 100% of the graduation interval.

 

So for an item that has a graduation interval of 1ml, it could be 0.5 to 1ml.

 

For an item that has a graduation interval of 20ml, it could be 10ml to 20ml.

 

Kindest Regards,

Customer Service

 

That's crazy!!! The one I bought says +/- 1ml on the cylinder.  But, it could be more, who knows.

[Guest [ba...]]

I was going to buy the kaiser scientic graduated cylinder and wrote the seller about the accuracy. This is the response I got. I know we are not dealing with the volumetric flasks which are the gold standard for measuring but this is what they wrote me: (which seems ridiculous because why use them if they're that off, but here's what they said)

Hello,

 

Thank you for your interest in our products.

 

In general, the 'tolerance' or variability in accuracy is approximately 50% to 100% of the graduation interval.

 

So for an item that has a graduation interval of 1ml, it could be 0.5 to 1ml.

 

For an item that has a graduation interval of 20ml, it could be 10ml to 20ml.

 

Kindest Regards,

Customer Service

 

That's crazy!!! The one I bought says +/- 1ml on the cylinder.  But, it could be more, who knows.

 

That's like a 1% error.  That's really small.

[[ho...]]

I was going to buy the kaiser scientic graduated cylinder and wrote the seller about the accuracy. This is the response I got. I know we are not dealing with the volumetric flasks which are the gold standard for measuring but this is what they wrote me: (which seems ridiculous because why use them if they're that off, but here's what they said)

Hello,

 

Thank you for your interest in our products.

 

In general, the 'tolerance' or variability in accuracy is approximately 50% to 100% of the graduation interval.

 

So for an item that has a graduation interval of 1ml, it could be 0.5 to 1ml.

 

For an item that has a graduation interval of 20ml, it could be 10ml to 20ml.

 

Kindest Regards,

Customer Service

 

That's crazy!!! The one I bought says +/- 1ml on the cylinder.  But, it could be more, who knows.

I know I read that and thought well if they're that off what's the point of getting one? Especially if where it says up to 100%. Seems impossible. I don't know, a lot of people use that brand but that's the response I got.

[[ho...]]

I was going to buy the kaiser scientic graduated cylinder and wrote the seller about the accuracy. This is the response I got. I know we are not dealing with the volumetric flasks which are the gold standard for measuring but this is what they wrote me: (which seems ridiculous because why use them if they're that off, but here's what they said)

Hello,

 

Thank you for your interest in our products.

 

In general, the 'tolerance' or variability in accuracy is approximately 50% to 100% of the graduation interval.

 

So for an item that has a graduation interval of 1ml, it could be 0.5 to 1ml.

 

For an item that has a graduation interval of 20ml, it could be 10ml to 20ml.

 

Kindest Regards,

Customer Service

 

That's crazy!!! The one I bought says +/- 1ml on the cylinder.  But, it could be more, who knows.

 

That's like a 1% error.  That's really small.

ok maybe I didn't understand the email.

[[bu...]]

 

 

That's crazy!!! The one I bought says +/- 1ml on the cylinder.  But, it could be more, who knows  I know I read that and thought well if they're that off what's the point of getting one? Especially if where it says up to 100%. Seems impossible. I don't know, a lot of people use that brand but that's the response I got.

 

Note that is says "...50% to 100% of the graduation interval. "

 

If you have a 100 ml syringe, it will probably be graduated in 1ml increments.  So the margin of error in that 100ml cylinder is .5-1ml.

 

And if your measuring a 1mg=10ml solution, that would be and margin of error of .05 to .1mg.

 

Don't forget that the FDA says +/- 15% is OK for the tablets!  And those doing scale tapers routinely report that +/1 5% (10% variation) is common.

 

Don't get hung up on acccuracy and precision...its not important.

[Guest [ba...]]

The graduation interval on a 100 ml cylinder is 1 ml.  The stated error from the manufacturer is +/- 50-100% of that 1 ml division which is 0.5 to 1.0 mls.  So if used properly, a reading of 100 mls will be between 99 and 101 mls.  That's a 1% error which is less than the error of the pill weights.

 

Assuming that the user introduces another percent or two of error, the total error could be 2-3%.  That's still better than the pill weights.

 

People constantly overthink this error stuff.  Just relax about it.  The industry is good with +/- 5% errors (sometimes larger).  It works.  Just be consistent in your approach and stick to one method and you'll be fine.

[[bu...]]

 

 

People constantly overthink this error stuff.  Just relax about it.  The industry is good with +/- 5% errors (sometimes larger).  It works.  Just be consistent in your approach and stick to one method and you'll be fine.

 

:thumbsup:

[[ho...]]

 

 

That's crazy!!! The one I bought says +/- 1ml on the cylinder.  But, it could be more, who knows  I know I read that and thought well if they're that off what's the point of getting one? Especially if where it says up to 100%. Seems impossible. I don't know, a lot of people use that brand but that's the response I got.

 

Note that is says "...50% to 100% of the graduation interval. "

 

If you have a 100 ml syringe, it will probably be graduated in 1ml increments.  So the margin of error in that 100ml cylinder is .5-1ml.

 

And if your measuring a 1mg=10ml solution, that would be and margin of error of .05 to .1mg.

 

Don't forget that the FDA says +/- 15% is OK for the tablets!  And those doing scale tapers routinely report that +/1 5% (10% variation) is common.

 

Don't get hung up on acccuracy and precision...its not important.

yea I didn't really understand the email because I was thinking well 100% would measure nothing.

[[ho...]]

The graduation interval on a 100 ml cylinder is 1 ml.  The stated error from the manufacturer is +/- 50-100% of that 1 ml division which is 0.5 to 1.0 mls.  So if used properly, a reading of 100 mls will be between 99 and 101 mls.  That's a 1% error which is less than the error of the pill weights.

 

Assuming that the user introduces another percent or two of error, the total error could be 2-3%.  That's still better than the pill weights.

 

People constantly overthink this error stuff.  Just relax about it.  The industry is good with +/- 5% errors (sometimes larger).  It works.  Just be consistent in your approach and stick to one method and you'll be fine.

ok so since it says the graduated interval, that is where the discrepancy is, I was thinking whole cylinder. OK brain fried.

[[...]]

 

Hey Miss tnt! The sleep thingy is a major bummer, and I'm not always so positive...I just try to fake it until I make it...until the next hour, at least. Next month will make 24 years on this benzo stuff (not to mention the other bag full of drugs and "therapies" along the way). Typically, my night times stink the high heavens and then the mornings are full of depression. I start to get a little window in the early to late afternoon. My "good" time is usually between 4pm and 8pm. I think I start to freak a little around 8pm simply because I know that the night time is coming. I'm sure there's a big psychological component in the night situation by this point, but it's brutal no matter if it's psychological or physiological. Like everybody else, some days are worse than others, but on the decent days I just do my best to act positively in whatever I'm doing, if anything. Some days I simply can't go anywhere, but I can usually at least get outside to get some exercise or whatever. Lots of prayer time!! I miss the social component of life, but I do some church activities if I feel I can handle them. It's too bad some of us in this group can't get together to encourage each other. I don't think anybody can truly understand this unless they've been through it themselves. Same with anything in life, I guess.

 

Keep rowing the boat, girl!! We'll find the shore one of these days. Hugs!

 

And, hugs to Gard too!!

 

Jeff

 

Hey Jeff,

 

I can't imagine not being able to sleep. I hope I don't end up having to experience it. I'm currently on other medications that make me drowsy so I may be spared that at least. I have to admit I do dread going to bed when I am tapering though so I understand what you're saying about that. I have really vivid dreams that wake me up often in a surge of anxiety. They go on for hours. I often wake up exhausted. Once I get to a certain time in the morning I can't sleep anymore anyway because of the anxiety.

 

I've been having problems with the depression and lonliness in the mornings since my daughter switched jobs and I'm alone most of the day all week long. When it's nice out, which it has been this week, I can get into my backyard if I'm up to leaving the house. I tried the exercise but my sxs got worse. I'm not sure if it was causitive though but I'm afraid to try again to find out.   

 

I'm with you on trying to act positive as much as possible. It's a little hard when I'm having a crying jag as a w/d sxs but other than that I try to fake it. Of course I'm mostly alone so I try to be positive in my posts. Some days though.....some days I just have to let it all hang out 

 

I was doing some things with my church but once the agoraphobia hit I stopped and I we haven't lived here long enough for us to have gotten close with anyone. I am crocheting blankets to give to shelters. I will probably give them to our church as they quilt blankets to give away and probably already have established places. It at least helps me feel like I have a purpose 

 

I asked my pshchologist why they didn't have groups for people going through benzo withdrawal since it is so hard and we really need each other. He didn't know but thought it was a good idea. Of course a lot of us are agoraphobic so I don't know how many would actually be able to attend!! 

 

I miss the social connections too. Do you mind if I make my boat a kayak? I love to kayak. I'll just keep rowing right along with you man 

 

Hugs 

[[Ul...]]

 

Hey Miss tnt! The sleep thingy is a major bummer, and I'm not always so positive...I just try to fake it until I make it...until the next hour, at least. Next month will make 24 years on this benzo stuff (not to mention the other bag full of drugs and "therapies" along the way). Typically, my night times stink the high heavens and then the mornings are full of depression. I start to get a little window in the early to late afternoon. My "good" time is usually between 4pm and 8pm. I think I start to freak a little around 8pm simply because I know that the night time is coming. I'm sure there's a big psychological component in the night situation by this point, but it's brutal no matter if it's psychological or physiological. Like everybody else, some days are worse than others, but on the decent days I just do my best to act positively in whatever I'm doing, if anything. Some days I simply can't go anywhere, but I can usually at least get outside to get some exercise or whatever. Lots of prayer time!! I miss the social component of life, but I do some church activities if I feel I can handle them. It's too bad some of us in this group can't get together to encourage each other. I don't think anybody can truly understand this unless they've been through it themselves. Same with anything in life, I guess.

 

Keep rowing the boat, girl!! We'll find the shore one of these days. Hugs!

 

And, hugs to Gard too!!

 

Jeff

 

Hey Jeff,

 

I can't imagine not being able to sleep. I hope I don't end up having to experience it. I'm currently on other medications that make me drowsy so I may be spared that at least. I have to admit I do dread going to bed when I am tapering though so I understand what you're saying about that. I have really vivid dreams that wake me up often in a surge of anxiety. They go on for hours. I often wake up exhausted. Once I get to a certain time in the morning I can't sleep anymore anyway because of the anxiety.

 

I've been having problems with the depression and lonliness in the mornings since my daughter switched jobs and I'm alone most of the day all week long. When it's nice out, which it has been this week, I can get into my backyard if I'm up to leaving the house. I tried the exercise but my sxs got worse. I'm not sure if it was causitive though but I'm afraid to try again to find out.   

 

I'm with you on trying to act positive as much as possible. It's a little hard when I'm having a crying jag as a w/d sxs but other than that I try to fake it. Of course I'm mostly alone so I try to be positive in my posts. Some days though.....some days I just have to let it all hang out 

 

I was doing some things with my church but once the agoraphobia hit I stopped and I we haven't lived here long enough for us to have gotten close with anyone. I am crocheting blankets to give to shelters. I will probably give them to our church as they quilt blankets to give away and probably already have established places. It at least helps me feel like I have a purpose 

 

I asked my pshchologist why they didn't have groups for people going through benzo withdrawal since it is so hard and we really need each other. He didn't know but thought it was a good idea. Of course a lot of us are agoraphobic so I don't know how many would actually be able to attend!! 

 

I miss the social connections too. Do you mind if I make my boat a kayak? I love to kayak. I'll just keep rowing right along with you man 

 

Hugs 

 

Kayak it is, sweet lady!!!! Keep doing what you're doing. I think it's all just a process...and a test of faith.

 

Talk soon!

 

Jeff